Do or die....open questions to the IAF pilot

[Irfan Baloch]

@Windjammer @OrionHunter
I guess the subject of the thread itself wasn't blasphemous. the military personnel of both countries dont need to be protected like the repute of a Z lister from ShowBiz .

one makes a statement of wiping another country from face of the earth.. (fair enough)
other begs to disagree saying such claim is amateurish (fair enough)

one points towards bigger budget, more fighters and all that as a proof
the other still maintains that this is factually wrong

the house is divided and battle lines are drown and we commit harakari based on our flags.

some invoke the sacredness of the professional forces, other mention the 1000 ruling of Sub continent and more.

I think we can make peace here.

if IAF decides to believe that PAF is a done deal in 4 days and then it can wipe Pakistan from face of the earth then it must have absolute belief in its power of weapons and its users and also must believe that it has enough information about PAF not being able to do much and perish in short time.
this is perfectly fine.
because IAF might not want to share intricate details although it can afford to do so.

if PAF says that IAF claim is not a reality then thats fine too.it would be wise not to disclose its super strategy or weapons usage that it intends to deploy in order to defeat IAF because the issue here is that its health is directly proportional to the health of the Pakistan state (and inversely proportional to Nawaz / Zardari Swiss/ Dubai accounts)


loose tongues sink ships so lets leave the need to know details out and continue with the jingoism and rhetoric (thats what forums are for). just leave out crude ( all that apply) comments.

as far as giving my 2 cents to the subject is concerned. all I can say is that we could shoot down that Indian Foxbat back in the days but we chose not to. and it appears that the mission was exactly that ......to suss out what our air defence command had in its hands back in late 90s. (again I dont have the "link" or photo to prove what i say so take my word for it )

 

[The Unnamed]

@Windjammer @OrionHunter
I guess the subject of the thread itself wasn't blasphemous. the military personnel of both countries dont need to be protected like the repute of a Z lister from ShowBiz .

one makes a statement of wiping another country from face of the earth.. (fair enough)
other begs to disagree saying such claim is amateurish (fair enough)

one points towards bigger budget, more fighters and all that as a proof
the other still maintains that this is factually wrong

the house is divided and battle lines are drown and we commit harakari based on our flags.

some invoke the sacredness of the professional forces, other mention the 1000 ruling of Sub continent and more.

I think we can make peace here.

if IAF decides to believe that PAF is a done deal in 4 days and then it can wipe Pakistan from face of the earth then it must have absolute belief in its power of weapons and its users and also must believe that it has enough information about PAF not being able to do much and perish in short time.
this is perfectly fine.
because IAF might now want to share intricate details although it can afford to do so.

if PAF says that IAF claim is not a reality then thats fine too.it would be wise not to disclose its super strategy or weapons usage that it intends to deploy in order to defeat IAF because the issue here is that its health is directly proportional to the health of the Pakistan state (and inversely proportional to Nawaz / Zardari Swiss/ Dubai accounts)


loose tongues sink ships so lets leave the need to know details out and continue with the jingoism and rhetoric (thats what forums are for). just leave out crude ( all that apply) comments.

as far as giving my 2 cents to the subject is concerned. all I can say is that we could shoot down that Indian Foxbat back in the days but we chose not too and it appears that the mission was exactly that to suss out what our air defence command at in its hands back in late 90s. (again I dont have the "link" or photo to prove what i say so take my word for it )

take a look at the first post. the opening post of this thread. just because an armchair chief air marshal with a filthy character visible through his choice of topics wants to have a "death or life" chat about an airforce, would you take him seriously ? on PDF ?

99.95 % chances are you will not.

 

[MadDog]

Its not about the size, its about training, From historical facts PAF always had air superiority, even in 1971, it had much more air to air kills than IAF, check the airforce aces home page, its a neutral website. I would recommend the respected Indian member to read "Air war of 1965" by a British Aviation expert John Fricker ..u can google and read it online ....being small in number is not the issue..today the quantitative gap b/w IAF and PAF is 2.5:1 , so its not that big of a gap. Superior training is what matters, in 2010 Anatolian Eagle, excercise PAF had 3/3 kills against British RAF, PAF was using old F-16 A/B's and RAF was using its Eurofighter typhoons, this was reported in JULY 2011 Airforce Monthly Magazine by Alan Warnes. So at the end of the day it is the man behind the machine. It is precisely because of this machoman unprofessional attitude that IAF despite being a big airforce could not achieve the fame which PAF has achieved in the last 70 years by scoring kills against Indian, Russian, Afghan and Israeli airforces. In the end I would request the former IAF pilot , to look how scared PAF pilots were thinking about the might IAF which outnumbered them 5:1 ...when being interviewed by BBC...LOL ...its nothing personal..but their body language shows the reality !!!

 

[Windjammer]

take a look at the first post. the opening post of this thread. just because an armchair chief air marshal with a filthy character visible through his choice of topics wants to have a "death or life" chat about an airforce, would you take him seriously ? on PDF ?

99.95 % chances are you will not.

The irony is that a dog doesn't always barks to scare the threat away, sometimes he does it to get attention.
And he will keep repeating it until removed from the leash or clipped around the ears..... but then one can always ignore it as it's in their nature to bark.

 

[Rain]

What a cry for attention. Mods, delete this thread.

Delete it i endorse it because some people feel speechless or without answers... so DELETE Every thing that Hurts Mighty Lords of East---India

 

[OrionHunter]

@Windjammer @OrionHunter
I guess the subject of the thread itself wasn't blasphemous. the military personnel of both countries dont need to be protected like the repute of a Z lister from ShowBiz .

one makes a statement of wiping another country from face of the earth.. (fair enough)
other begs to disagree saying such claim is amateurish (fair enough)

one points towards bigger budget, more fighters and all that as a proof
the other still maintains that this is factually wrong

the house is divided and battle lines are drown and we commit harakari based on our flags.

some invoke the sacredness of the professional forces, other mention the 1000 ruling of Sub continent and more.

I think we can make peace here.

if IAF decides to believe that PAF is a done deal in 4 days and then it can wipe Pakistan from face of the earth then it must have absolute belief in its power of weapons and its users and also must believe that it has enough information about PAF not being able to do much and perish in short time.
this is perfectly fine.
because IAF might now want to share intricate details although it can afford to do so.

if PAF says that IAF claim is not a reality then thats fine too.it would be wise not to disclose its super strategy or weapons usage that it intends to deploy in order to defeat IAF because the issue here is that its health is directly proportional to the health of the Pakistan state (and inversely proportional to Nawaz / Zardari Swiss/ Dubai accounts)


loose tongues sink ships so lets leave the need to know details out and continue with the jingoism and rhetoric (thats what forums are for). just leave out crude ( all that apply) comments.

as far as giving my 2 cents to the subject is concerned. all I can say is that we could shoot down that Indian Foxbat back in the days but we chose not too and it appears that the mission was exactly that to suss out what our air defence command at in its hands back in late 90s. (again I dont have the "link" or photo to prove what i say so take my word for it )

It is next to impossible to pick up jets taking off from airfields within Pakistan with aerial assets from well inside India. Even the AWACS can't do this. Their radars would choke due to enormous ground clutter. I'm not sure how a MiG-29 or for that matter any aircraft can pick up enemy aircraft taking off 200-300kms away! What he probably meant was low level detection.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

take a look at the first post. the opening post of this thread. just because an armchair chief air marshal with a filthy character visible through his choice of topics wants to have a "death or life" chat about an airforce, would you take him seriously ? on PDF ?

99.95 % chances are you will not.

I treat every thread and post according to its merit and disregard the history of the poster.
the thread subject matter had potential but it was sapped due to insecurities and sensitivities.
which is a shame.

0.05% chance is what I take every time on everyone who has a controversial history with whatever the flag when sometimes they make very good posts------------ maybe they forget to switch to their more "respected" account but I dont dwell on it and concentrate on the content.

 

[Hulk]

@Windjammer

You seem to overlook some extremely important issues in your fundamental question being posed in this thread, namely why didn't India attack Pakistan after the Mumbai terrorists attack despite India claiming to have evidence that Pakistan was responsible and despite India's build up of forces on the borders (correct me if I am wrong).

The main dilemma posed by India since the 1980s has always been ...what do we do after an attack on Pakistan ? Thankfully, India is controlled more by its brains than its brauns. I suspect that this dilemma shall confront India for the remainder of Pakistan's existence. It is a simple matter to move in tons of troops and to engage in a war with a neighbor who has a worthy military to confront. Even assuming that the Indian armed forces are capable of smashing the forward defenses of Pakistan, what does India do thereafter? Face stiff demands from the world to end the war or face sanctions thus destroying the Indian economy. No insult intended, but reality dictates that the Pakistani economy is hardly worth considering in this day and age so Pakistan has little if nothing to lose on that issue.So India will remain the core loser there.

Capture Pakistani territory and engage in a long drawn out war with Pakistan ? Now only a crazy Indian would want to rule even a square mile of Pakistani territory. Forget the resistance against India. When that dies out, India will face internal fighting in Pakistan which would drive any sane governance insane. Then the Muslim world will screech.."watch how the evil Hindu invaders are allowing our Muslim brothers and sisters to be slaughtered under their rule !"

In a nutshell, why invade a country which is on self destruction mode ? Many Hindutvas here spit on Congress and its leadership for the apparently "weak stance" taken against Pakistan in its foreign policy. I sincerely hope that they get the message as equally as you will hopefully get it

One other thing Pakistani's miss or deliberately try to ignore is that how decision to attack is made. Just because you are superior does not mean that attack should happen or attack did not happen because we were afraid. This is very simplistic explanation of why attack happens or do not happen. Here is what happened after 26/11.

1) US Promised to help India against terrorism and also offered to exert pressure on Pakistan.
2) Pakistan did arrested some terrorist and they are in jail, also offered to start trail and cooperate. (Not everything comes in media, they talk differently)
3) The value of attacking did not justify the expense. Difference between ignoring few things and making country prosperous vs making country bankrupt.

We cannot just attack to convince members on PDF. Its billions of dollars worth of money and aftereffects we are talking here.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

It is next to impossible to pick up jets taking off from airfields within Pakistan with aerial assets from well inside India. Even the AWACS can't do this. Their radars would choke due to enormous ground clutter. I'm not sure how a MiG-29 or for that matter any aircraft can pick up enemy aircraft taking off 200-300kms away! What he probably meant was low level detection.

we forget earth curvature. I hope I get the message across what I am meaning to say

there are satellites to compensate for that but they have to be at the right place and at the right time to pick up such flights. and also would they be low orbiting or beyond?

nothing is impossible. sometimes the low tech wins the game
just a phone call on the satellite phone from near the base will help give the heads up to both forces to move their assets in pace for a better look.


in the army they told us.. if you can hit the enemy , if he is in range then be assured that so are you.


both forces have majority of their airbases near the mutual borders and ahead of them is the network of all the early warning hardware any worthy air defence command will put in place. the timing can be off but it wont matter much.

(on side notes, back in the days before Baghdad was going to be raised by Mongol forces, some malevolent Mullahs were painstakingly trying to outdo each other over the issue of... two people running around a tree and arguing over who was in the lead?)..

 

[VCheng]

we forget earth curvature.

We all know the Earth is flat Sir. Just look out your window!

 

[The Unnamed]

I treat every thread and post according to its merit and disregard the history of the poster.
the thread subject matter had potential but it was sapped due to insecurities and sensitivities.
which is a shame.

0.05% chance is what I take every time on everyone who has a controversial history with whatever the flag when sometimes they make very good posts------------ maybe they forget to switch to their more "respected" account but I dont dwell on it and concentrate on the content.

I treat every thread and post according to its merit and disregard the history of the poster.
the thread subject matter had potential but it was sapped due to insecurities and sensitivities.
which is a shame.

0.05% chance is what I take every time on everyone who has a controversial history with whatever the flag when sometimes they make very good posts------------ maybe they forget to switch to their more "respected" account but I dont dwell on it and concentrate on the content.

yeah well...more i see this kinda stuff..my bullsh!tometer goes..."TWAAAINNNN"

then almost always find out i was right. but then...Thumbs up to your effort !!!

 

[SQ8]

(on side notes, back in the days before Baghdad was going to be raised by Mongol forces, some malevolent Mullahs were painstakingly trying to outdo each other over the issue of... two people running around a tree and arguing over who was in the lead?)..

Such examples are given for a lot of doomed states. There are stories about the bishops of jerusalem before its fall to the Third Caliph... but the common theme is there; if you spend your time arguing over idiocy.. you are doomed.

Its not about the size, its about training, From historical facts PAF always had air superiority, even in 1971,

From all well researched historical perspectives the PAF did NOT have air superiority in 65 nor in 71. It was able to achieve local air superiority in some cases in 65 and even less in 71. But at most times it had it own airspace contested and in most cases in 71 it gave it away to the IAF. The reason for the latter was not the propaganda BS fed to the other side by their historians of "cowering down" but rather conservation of strength to support the planned counter offensive by the PA.

There is a well written/researched and quite unbiased review of the PAF's performance here for all to see. While it is never good to take a single opinion, in this case this opinion has been generally acclaimed by friend and foe both.
Aeronaut

For the 65 war, the account by P.V.S Jagan Mohan and Samir Chopra is also written quite accurately and provides a generally unbiased and fair account of the war from an Indian perspective.
The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Basel]

Normally I dont reply to these kind of childish comments Cz mostly indians come to these petty personal attacks , i dont need to prove anything to anyone But leme just clerify 1 thing for You I m one of those few Pakistani origin men who are currently active personal of Rnoaf hope you have enough brains to sort out that em not some chairwarrior and my theories are not some bluffs

As a active personal in RNOAF you must know what MLUed F-16s are capable of, in today's modern warfare, would you like to share that here so the Indians can get a glimpse what Falcons are capable of, they think every thing IAF has can beat F-16s.

For those who think that only India have LR-Radars and can see in Pakistan, then try to Google the capabilities Pakistan had since 80s, we were superior in this field in those times and had this capability since 80s thanks to Uncle Sam.

as far as giving my 2 cents to the subject is concerned. all I can say is that we could shoot down that Indian Foxbat back in the days but we chose not too and it appears that the mission was exactly that to suss out what our air defence command at in its hands back in late 90s. (again I dont have the "link" or photo to prove what i say so take my word for it )

I agree with you on that as I got the same thing from military professionals, although some said we were also not allowed by the NS govt. to engage.

 

[Chanakyaa]

I wanna ask the senior members here.
Can any one compare the Training of the Pilots of IAF and PAF ? Yes, i mean to say, if PAF Pilots are better, what contributes to it ?

I have a firm understanding of PAF being very professional and definitely knows how to get the best from the "available resources". I wish to know, leaving the machine aside, how can the PAF Pilots better than IAF.

I would be grateful if a pure analytical approach is made. With Data inputs around Training and Skill Development.
I am looking forward to get info on Ground Staff Data and AWACS consideration as well.

 

[StormShadow]

I wanna ask the senior members here.
Can any one compare the Training of the Pilots of IAF and PAF ? Yes, i mean to say, if PAF Pilots are better, what contributes to it ?

I have a firm understanding of PAF being very professional and definitely knows how to get the best from the "available resources". I wish to know, leaving the machine aside, how can the PAF Pilots better than IAF.

I would be grateful if a pure analytical approach is made. With Data inputs around Training and Skill Development.
I am looking forward to get info on Ground Staff Data and AWACS consideration as well.

In my limited knowledge, this "PAF better than IAF" used to be a thing of past when paf was flying more sorties than iaf and training used to be very limited for iaf unlike paf which used to be trained according to NATO standards. . But, during the last decade, iaf's flying hours have exceeded paf's(will try to dig that report out for you) and we started participating in air exercises with almost all the professional airforces and if this trend continues, in coming times, it's going to be iaf leading in tech platform as well as training.