DNA Results From Rakhigarhi Are Now Being Reported

[Hamza913]

Obviously because of Taxila in the nearby, which was destroyed by invaders whom you follow.

The Huns destroyed it dumba55, not Muslims.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

This could be interpreted to mean different things to different people. If Harappan people were not confined to one particular race then we are back to square one. Who are these people???
This research poses more questions than it answers to its dna makeup. If the Eurasian steppe dna is not present then it is possible that these people were local population. It does lend credibility to Pakistani claim that IVC are mostly local inhabitants.

@Indus Pakistan
@Indus Priest King
@Nilgiri

I am not at all convinced how DNA helps in 'tagging' a people to one country. It's like using samples of skeletons from Rome from Caesar's time. The problem is very few populations are isolated specimens. A sample from Ancient Rome could easily show traces of modern Tunisian, Turks, Lebanese, Algerian, Greek etc. Would this then give ground to claims for all of the Mediteranean countries to cry out "We are all Romans"?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Manuscript is kind of a book can have several copies.

I know. But the one that has been found is from Bakshalay, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province, Pakistan. And I know your hoping that one is soon found in your backyard - then you can sing "Ganga, Ganga" songs. But until then fact is fact.

The earliest recorded zero in the entire world is in your nemesis - Indus Pakistan.

It was only found there

I know. Sorry it must hurt but it was not found in Ganga.

Obviously because of Taxila in the nearby, which was destroyed by invaders whom you follow.

Islam came centuries later you dipsit.

 

[my2cents]

I am not at all convinced how DNA helps in 'tagging' a people to one country. It's like using samples of skeletons from Rome from Caesar's time. The problem is very few populations are isolated specimens. A sample from Ancient Rome could easily show traces of modern Tunisian, Turks, Lebanese, Algerian, Greek etc. Would this then give ground to claims for all of the Mediteranean countries to cry out "We are all Romans"?

I actually agree with your analysis. When certain DNA is not present then we could presume that certain race is not present. But if the admixture contains different DNA then we are present with multiple options to explore.

 

[kalakaar]

I know. But the one that has been found is from Bakshalay, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province, Pakistan. And I know your hoping that one is soon found in your backyard - then you can sing "Ganga, Ganga" songs. But until then fact is fact.

The earliest recorded zero in the entire world is in your nemesis - Indus Pakistan.

I know. Sorry it must hurt but it was not found in Ganga.

Islam came centuries later you dipsit.

Oh so you are back with all those proxy and articulated facts than original ones . Recording and compilation of stuff and all that zero, numerics, vedas happened thousands of years afterwards their discoveries. It is apara gyan the goal is para gyan. That's the reality of such records. The dharmic religions or way of life have been known posses it since it came on earth via meditation or what soever. We have the knowledge of it you don't we are the keepers of it and have been giving it further to our descendants since ages. And will continue to do so.

The main contributors to Vedas are Saptarishis and most of their descendants are now live in India as Brahmins. Do you belong to any Brahmin Gotra?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Thank you for your civil comment. I understand that Mohenjo Daro and Harrappa are fully Pakistan's heritage. However, India does have a rightful claim to the IVC that extends beyond Punjab. There are hundreds of sites of varying size and importance throughout Gujarat, Rajasthan, and Haryana. Gujarat in particular has Lothal, the first port city of the IVC, which makes it one of the most important sites. I posted a thread history of Gujaratis for more information on this. My Mother actually comes from a family of Gujaratis in Sindh, similar to Jinnah.

We have no problem with Gujaratis, Rajasthanis and East Punjabis claiming IVC. However, they only make up 5% of the Indian population - so it's wrong to say that 1.3 billion people can lay claim to IVC.

it is unlikely that the “Harappan people” were one single people genetically. There was probably a lot of variation in admixture with the indigenous South Asian substrate.

That's quite obvious, you can't have a single people densely inhabiting such a large area. Rakhigarhi especially, being on the fringes would be genetically different from those on the Indus.

 

[UnitedPak]

The dharmic religions or way of life have been known posses it since it came on earth via meditation or what soever. We have the knowledge of it you don't we are the keepers of it and have been giving it further to our descendants since ages. And will continue to do so

And back in the real world, there is this thing called physical evidence, which Pakistan has and India does not.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Just in case some people forgot, its highly likely that Brahmagupta was born in India and confirmed he lived most of his life in modern India. He also did most of his works in Ujjain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta

We have no problem with Gujaratis, Rajasthanis and East Punjabis claiming IVC. However, they only make up 5% of the Indian population - so it's wrong to say that 1.3 billion people can lay claim to IVC.


That's quite obvious, you can't have a single people densely inhabiting such a large area. Rakhigarhi especially, being on the fringes would be genetically different from those on the Indus.

Actually, the population of those areas is larger than you think. As for Rakhigarhi being on the fringe, geography does not work like that. Dehli is on the fringe of India, does that makes someone from Dehli less Indiam than someone from Madhya Pradesh? Beijjing is on the fringe of CHina, are the people there less Chinese than people in central China? Rakhigarhi has so far been confirmed as one of if not the biggest Harrapan sites discovered, so it is a valid site for this study. However, I think one study is too early to make conclusions, and I think the same should be done for other sites such as Lothal, Kalibangan etc. Although it may be hard to extract DNA if there are no skeletons found. Anyway, I agree that threads named "We are all Harrappans" are simply overly provocative Its simply too early to make such conclusions. I think it would have been better to simply say the results of the study in the thread.

 

[my2cents]

Just in case some people forgot, its highly likely that Brahmagupta was born in India and confirmed he lived most of his life in modern India. He also did most of his works in Ujjain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta



Actually, the population of those areas is larger than you think. As for Rakhigarhi being on the fringe, geography does not work like that. Dehli is on the fringe of India, does that makes someone from Dehli less Indiam than someone from Madhya Pradesh? Beijjing is on the fringe of CHina, are the people there less Chinese than people in central China? Rakhigarhi has so far been confirmed as one of if not the biggest Harrapan sites discovered, so it is a valid site for this study. However, I think one study is too early to make conclusions, and I think the same should be done for other sites such as Lothal, Kalibangan etc. Although it may be hard to extract DNA if there are no skeletons found. Anyway, I agree that threads named "We are all Harrappans" are simply overly provocative Its simply too early to make such conclusions. I think it would have been better to simply say the results of the study in the thread.

Most of the excavation and research is happening in India but they will reject anything that we publish as rubbish. At the time of IVC there were no borders, so people moved about long distances to trade and find greener pastures.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Most of the excavation and research is happening in India but they will reject anything that we publish as rubbish. At the time of IVC there were no borders, so people moved about long distances to trade and find greener pastures.

Another common mistake people make is that they view the IVC like Rome. The IVC was not a republic or Empire or even a centralized state(those concepts came much later). Instead, it was a series of city states that developed around the same time and share similarities in culture, architecture, planning, etc. Obviously there was inter-city trade, but other than that, the people of Harrapa had no relation with the people of Mohenjo-Daro who had no relation to the people of Rakhigarhi. To be honest, the IVC and Harappa is treated mostly as an era than a civilization by many archeologists. The tendency is to label anything found that's dated prior to 2500 Bc as "Harrappan era." Which I disagree with, because such sites are found in almost every state in India, but that's just the way archeologists do it.

 

[Hamza913]

THe number zero was invented by Brahmagupta, who lived most of his life in Rajasthan. The Decimal system was invented by Arybhata, and without it, the Arabs and Europeans would not have been able to create advanced systems of mathematics. Aryabhata was also the first astronomer to calculate the length of a day and a year and determine the timings of eclipses. He was also one of the first astronomers to discover that the Earth rotates on an axis. THe South Indian mathematician Madhava also discovered principles of calculus centuries before Newton did. As for literature, there is no evidence Panini was born in Pakistan, and even then, he was by no means the first and only Sanskrit grammarian. The greatest works of Sanskrit literature are the Mahabharat and the Ramayana, both longer than the greek oddyssy and Iliad, and they were weitten in northern India. I don't know why you mentioned the rest of the stuff you did becuases we are clearly talking about ancient history, but have you sent satelites to MArs and the Moon? We were among the first nations to discover water on the moon. As for architecture, simply look at the threads created on the subject, we are unparalleled. The fact you included all those unrelated examples of recent history to counter our countless achievements during ancient times shows how defensive you are
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhava_of_Sangamagrama
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ancient-indian-architecture.325674/
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sout...al-heritage-and-its-indian-connection.565422/
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...the-best-yet-criminally-unappreciated.554988/

I'm not denying Hindustan has achievements, but to say we have none is laughable. Ours far surpass yours, because whatever you've done, we've done most of it before you did.

And what do you mean there's no evidence Panini was born in Pakistan? Almost everyone agrees about that lol.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

I'm not denying Hindustan has achievements, but to say we have none is laughable. Ours far surpass yours, because whatever you've done, we've done most of it before you did.

And what do you mean there's no evidence Panini was born in Pakistan? Almost everyone agrees about that lol.

I am sorry if I sounded overly confrontational in that first comment. That comment definitely did not do a good job conveying my argument. However, what makes you think you have more achievements? Okay Panini was born in Pakistan. Do you have anyone like Brahmagupta, Aryabhatta, Madhava etc? Those are the names that make south Asian mathematics and astronomy a household name. Have you created any Sanskrit literature like the Mahabharata or Ramayana? Im not denying Iqbal, but he was an Urdu poet. And we have Rabindranath Tagore. And do you have any architecture as ancient, intricate and complex as described in those threads? Those are just a few examples of what we have. We literally have ancient sites like those in every state. Not to mention the strongest Empires in South Asian history were centered in India, such as the Mauryans, Guptas, and Nandas. The Mauryan Empire Actually decisively defeated the Greeks. The oldest City in South Asia is in India, and Patilputra is arguably as important to South Asia as Rome is to Italy. I'm not denying that Ancient Pakistan has no history. I respect it for its contributions, as I do all nations. But with all due respect, you just sound ignorant with your desperation to prove Pakistan has a better history than India. You seem to think India having a great history means Pakistan has to have a bad one. You remind me of that guy who screams " I did not do it!" when someone asks " who dropped the plate?"

 

[Nilgiri]

This could be interpreted to mean different things to different people. If Harappan people were not confined to one particular race then we are back to square one. Who are these people???
This research poses more questions than it answers to its dna makeup. If the Eurasian steppe dna is not present then it is possible that these people were local population. It does lend credibility to Pakistani claim that IVC are mostly local inhabitants.

@Indus Pakistan
@Indus Priest King
@Nilgiri

I have mostly given up on interacting in this topic in this forum for multiple reasons.

Those applying some notion of current (severely downstream) political borders and cultural "hearth" complete congruence to ancient civilisation of millenia ago can simply make their case in the more dedicated expert fora (both online and the more important one of research thesis and works etc) on the topic. But they rarely do, because they know they would be shown the door....and quickly. Hence they accumulate where more can be found of likewise thinking to perpetuate some groupthink feel on it....rather than actually partake in the complete scientific process of it (i.e actual full on rational debate, critical thinking and importantly willingness to change ones understanding when presented with better information and argument).

Extreme reverse chronologically applied hoarding/exclusivist emotional nationalism of this kind (especially at this kind of timeframe) when there is much that is obviously to be shared (as is done in any neolithic/bronze age civilisation worldwide in relevant enough proximity)...is quite foolish and is dispelled easily once put to any actual mettle in research circles. Thus this non-cognisance of it among those that actually research in depth this subject (archaeologists and anthropologists) just adds to the desperation.

The process often employed to sustain it therefore...is to instead filter through in some way to choose only the perceived results (often stripped entirely of the broader context) that agree with a pre-defined position/notion and reject anything else that has come about in the exact same studies (that doesn't agree). There is a word for this: pseudo-science....and it is quite expansive realm in itself in human thinking of all colours and variety these days....so I do not really blame those here that indulge in it for whatever reason (though I do keep tabs on where their "arguments" have stuck or evolved)...given the scale at play elsewhere on subjects much more pertinent to current human existence.

@Jungibaaz @Hell hound @waz @Water Car Engineer @Skull and Bones

 

[Hamza913]

I am sorry if I sounded overly confrontational in that first comment. That comment definitely did not do a good job conveying my argument. However, what makes you think you have more achievements? Okay Panini was born in Pakistan. Do you have anyone like Brahmagupta, Aryabhatta, Madhava etc? Those are the names that make south Asian mathematics and astronomy a household name. Have you created any Sanskrit literature like the Mahabharata or Ramayana? Im not denying Iqbal, but he was an Urdu poet. And we have Rabindranath Tagore. And do you have any architecture as ancient, intricate and complex as described in those threads? Those are just a few examples of what we have. We literally have ancient sites like those in every state. Not to mention the strongest Empires in South Asian history were centered in India, such as the Mauryans, Guptas, and Nandas. The Mauryan Empire Actually decisively defeated the Greeks. The oldest City in South Asia is in India, and Patilputra is arguably as important to South Asia as Rome is to Italy. I'm not denying that Ancient Pakistan has no history. I respect it for its contributions, as I do all nations. But with all due respect, you just sound ignorant with your desperation to prove Pakistan has a better history than India. You seem to think India having a great history means Pakistan has to have a bad one. You remind me of that guy who screams " I did not do it!" when someone asks " who dropped the plate?"

I don't think we have more in terms of raw numbers, Hindustan is obviously larger and has more people so yes you guys will have more achievements, I only said that because you said our history is nothing in comparison to yours. I do think ours is better qualitatively though of course (which is cemented in my mind by the fact that so many Hindustanis try to claim it), but that's pretty subjective.

Some sources say Brahmagupta was born in Multan, but regardless as to whether or not he was, most intellectual figures from South Asia went to places in Pakistan like Taxila to obtain knowledge.

Sanskrit's not really been our thing. We have some excellent Pashto, Punjabi, Urdu and Farsi literature though.

We've got some pretty old architecture, like the Great Bath of Mohenjo Daro, the Kanishka Stupa, the Baluchistan Sphynx (although this one may be a natural formation), and some pretty old Hindu temples.

Hindustan itself is pretty huge and not at the crossroads of just about every major empire, but Pakistan is. So obviously you will have more empires from Hindustan, where as us Pakistanis will be descended from the different empires that came and conquered the region. However, we still have indigenous empires/dynasties, for example the Sur and Lodi dynasties were founded by Pashtuns from Pakistan, and Ahmed Shah Durrani was also born in Multan. There was also the Rind dynasty from Baluchistan that at one point sacked Delhi, the Shah Mir dynasty from Swat that ruled over Kashmir, The Samma dynasty from Sindh that ruled over southern Pakistan, the Sikh Empire came from Pakistani Punjab, etc. The Muslim dynasty of Mysore also had Punjabi ancestry, and IVC itself started in southern Pakistan (one of the worlds first civilisations) and spread to have outposts as far west as Turkmenistan. People from Gandhara also colonised parts of the Tarim Basin in China.

It's also important to note that the Mauryans themselves started in Taxila, where Kautilya (who himself was from Taxila) tutored the young Chandragupta, and they soon amassed a large army to conquer South Asia. People from what is now Pakistan as well as the land itself played a pretty crucial role for the Mauryans.

We've also been great soldiers for many different empires, particularly during the time of the Islamic invasions (their army's had large numbers of people from Pakistan).

 

[UnitedPak]

Those applying some notion of current (severely downstream) political borders

When we are clearly defining events in terms of Indus region, Ganges region, and Deccan plateau, while acknowledging the overlaps, I don't see how you get to make a strawman argument about modern political borders. As it happens, Pakistan largely encompasses the Indus region, Hindi speaking northern India: the Ganges region, and the Dravidian parts of India: Deccan plateau.

The modern borders are not perfect but there is a clear pattern that most Indians prefer to ignore for nationalist reasons.