Ditching Rafale

[axisofevil]

Ditching rafale reminds me of a scene from many of typical Indian movies where boy has promised girl that he will marry him and then after lots of her use he refuses and girl says mujhey na schoro ma kissi ko moan dekhaney ka kabil nahi rahoo gi...lol...
but jokes apart, ditching rafale is not so easy as per my understanding...india has gone a way too far with this MMRCA contract...canceling it will definitely effect its reputation amongst international community...all of the country has been buttering India for it...at the end France took it and also invested a lot of money to promote its jet in India....

I guess you cant read much English. If the deal fails it makes France look bad, especially seeing how the cost has gone up, issues with transfer tech and involving Reliance over HAL. India's reputation will be intact as a country that won't take shit from anybody. Remember, many countries including yours were interested in Dassault then looked elsewhere.

 

[sancho]

Again... I have no intention of doubting the figure quoted by RM.

Nobody says you should doubt them, but you have to put them into right perspective, otherwise they doesn't make sense. Just as comparing the cost of the current MKI that is far inferior to EF and Rafale in terms of avionics, that doesn't have an AESA included in the cost, nor advanced weaponary or even RCS reductions measures doesn't make sense. So if you compare, you have to do it on the same basis (cost of upgraded Flanker versions vs M-MRCAs cost per unit) and including the costs we pay to improve the Russian fighters with basic things, that the EF and Rafale will have from the start (modernEW sensors, modern jammers...).

MRCA was never envisioned to be a Frontline fighter. Instead it was supposed to fill the "gap" between heavy and light fighters.

Exactly, that's why in MRCA the Mirage and the Mig 29 had a natural advantage, since they were available in the IAF fleet and could be inducted faster as a stop gap. M-MRCA however didn't had that aim anymore and other requirements had priorities!

Now economy has slowed a bit and the deal will cost $20 Bill.

Economy is increasing since 2013 again and the costs went up, when we decided to go for M-MRCA, simply by the fact that we included more capable fighters. You don't really expect the Mig 35 in M-MRCA to cost the same as the Mig 29SMT, that was offered in the MRCA right? Even your prefered Gripen E had a far higher price in M-MRCA, than the Gripen C initially. So it's not time or the vendors that increased the costs, but the shift of the tender and since the MoD knew about the increased costs and till now, there is not a single official complain about the cost, only the media and forumers hype that issue.

WIth Rafale costing so much, I doubt GoI would want to induct so many Rafales. Especially when an "adequate" fighter is already being produced at less than half the cost. Not to mention the extra sweetness Putin would have offered.

That's what you assume, the fact however is, that the Rafale is important for IAF's operational capability and costs. It is the only fighter that offers an alternative since the gap between LCA and MKI is simply too big and the cost per flight hour or the maintenance of Russian fighters is too high and difficult. After the increase of accidents of MKI in the recent years, I would even say MoD / IAF wants M-MRCAs now more than ever before, since they know if any real problem comes up to the MKI fleet, IAF is not capable enough to secure India even in a 1 front war. So the capability of the MKI is not the issue, but the risk of betting just on a single platform!
And if Putin had offered something, we would had heared it directly after his visit and mainly from Russian media, this is now a move of the DM to put pressure on the French to comply to our demands in the new round of negotiations.

 

[Storm Force]

Cancelling rafale will be suicide for iaf.

Rafale with aesa and meteors is second only to raptor in the world imo better than f35 and any chinease fighter even the giant j20 and decade away j31

 

[Superboy]

I think MiG-35 is better than Rafale.

 

[Bang Galore]

Sir when I say lies I am referring specifically about the biggest issue many here (and in the media ) have with the deal- the cost. The figures many quote are blatantly wrong. This is not just my opinion by FACT. Anyone propagating a price above $15-16 billion is engaging in misinformation whether intentionally or not is irrelevant.


What is that line, you say a lie enough times and it becomes truth? I've seen this for myself on here. Many members are clearly disillusioned with this deal and their main bone of contention is the reportedly extortionate price Dassualt are demanding. Now if it was as high as $18-40 billion (exaggerated figures IVE seen quoted in the media) i too would be questioning this deal.

BUT this is not the case, a modest 25% price increase 5 years after the initial bid was made is not bad at all and perfectly reasonable for what india is getting.

On this matter(price) no one on the indian side (in an official matter) has said this is the sticking point. The DM didn't say cost was why they were looking at the Rafale but a failure to adhere to the RFP which is a legitimate concern.

The cost issue is a red herring and I am very sure the continuous inflating of the figure that goes on in the indian media is being fuelled by those with vested interests in seeing the Rafale talks fail.

The DM & MoD won't be bothered if the media is reporting something that isn't true. I'm not going to argue about the actual cost because all I know is what has appeared in media but it remains the fact that this has been appearing in different papers and even in news articles as opposed to opinion pieces. Difficult to understand why every single newspaper over the last couple of weeks would have been carrying such articles if there was no truth to any of that. We would be stepping into the realm of conspiracy theories if we go down the line that you suggest. Look, the Rafale deal might well get done but if we are going to discuss it till it gets done or it gets cancelled, we can only do it on the basis of what we know. Parrikar has flagged off certain issues and whether costs are an issue or not, it does seem that the deal is facing more than a simple hiccup.

If as you say the cost increase is either non-existent or minimal, there is no one needs to worry, is there? The actual costs when put out will shut up all the naysayers but they aren't saying that. I'm not sure how good your source on the price is but Rafale has nothing to worry about "planted" articles filled with "lies" if that is all there is to it.

 

[kirankumar299]

I was a big supporter of Rafale.....but now F@#k Rafale and get Sukhoi 30MKI which is a frontline fighter.....we have the complete production base for Sukhoi 30MKI which can be used to upgrade them to Super Sukhoi. Increase the LCA MK1 and MK2 production and fill the gap.

 

[vsdave2302]

only assembled in india... most of the parts of the plane comes from Russia, so we still need them... not to mention th FGFA

You are wrong.

Dont talk about coming close to whatever plane until the Tejas MKII actually starts flying.

Are bhai Baat to Karni Padati hai.

Few days ago there was a news that India Shall not get PAKFA till 2025.

Should we stop talking about Pakfa also?

 

[Su-11]

Wow.. these idiots are figuring this out what was deduced over 2 years ago! This whole Medium Multi RCA is bullshit was coughed up by IAF top brass to get western fighters. Fighters are bought for their capabilities, not their fuckin size. The amount of marketing bullshit churned out supporting this nonsense is just baffling.

IAF always had a fetish for french fighters ever since from Indira Gandhi era. Back then their mantra was single engine fiighters and also almost succeeded in convincing Indira too, but she wised up and gave a swift kick to the IAF's behind and slapped them silly to get the MiG-29.

Then they tried it again during the narasimha rao govt, but the govt wised up again and forced IAF to accept a tender instead of a single vendor purchase. IAF had to select a competing fighter which was the Su-30 against the Mirage in a face-off(yup tiny mirage against the 18 tonne Su-30... where was your Medium weight logic then IAF.. huh??). And we all know which one won in the end, against the IAF's wishes. But...

..Still they persisted!! And when the bjp govt came into power, they realized the incompetance and the dumb govt, and almost succeded in getting the Mirage(coupled with their over hype of Mirage during the kargil operations), but again their plans were foiled as that stupid govt was ousted and an experienced govt came into power.

Anthony wised up and floated a tender, and now the IAF started making this ridiculous Medium category logic and twisted and turned all requirements so that it would disqualify the Sukhois from competing in the tender. With Sukhois out, only Rafale/Mirage(before) could be the obvious winner. And they almost tasted the fruits of their cunning devious plan, if not for the unrelenting attribute of clean man Anthony who stuck to his position and fought off intense pressure both from the IAF and the Rafale to get this unnecessary gold plated fighter. Its because of Anthony, that Parrikar is even sticking to his stand(because if he accepts the french proposal suddenly after years of Anthony's correct stand he would get caught taking bribes), else he would have gotten kickbacks like all previous BJP defence ministers did so going by their track record.

yes, Rafale and Mirage are capable fighters, but not at the expense of ridiculous sums of money! We don't need a golden gun to protect a mud hut whose majority of inhabitants live for less than 1 dollar a day. The logic is both silly and stupid.

This rafale saga is a death blow to the rafale fanboy morons in this place, with no life, and stacking in post count for several years fighting for a fighter which for some weird reason gives them orgasm looking at it. Look back upon your time from your precious life wasted here, for you can never get it back!

 

[The enlightened]

This is not just my opinion by FACT.

FACT you say. Please provide credible and first hand sources and links for all of your claims that you've made so far

• Rafale's life cycle costs are 1/3rd of Sukhoi
• Rafale's CPFH is 1/2 of Sukhoi
• DM is a liar and Sukhoi does not cost 1/2 of Rafale.
• Rafale has higher serviceability and greater availability as compared to Sukhoi
• Rafale deal is $15-$16 billion and not $25-$30 billion

Do refute the points raised by @The Great One on this thread if you can
Over Rs 834 crore spent on Sukhoi maintenance | Page 2

 

[rockstarIN]

I'm a supporter of Rafale, but if it is costing much more, then we should add more Mig-29s & 2nd hand M2ks IF the Rafale is to fill the gap between heavy and light fighters. Then we should go for AMCA and LCA Mk2.

 

[greatone]

Wow.. these idiots are figuring this out what was deduced over 2 years ago! This whole Medium Multi RCA is bullshit was coughed up by IAF top brass to get western fighters. Fighters are bought for their capabilities, not their fuckin size. The amount of marketing bullshit churned out supporting this nonsense is just baffling.

IAF always had a fetish for french fighters ever since from Indira Gandhi era. Back then their mantra was single engine fiighters and also almost succeeded in convincing Indira too, but she wised up and gave a swift kick to the IAF's behind and slapped them silly to get the MiG-29.

Then they tried it again during the narasimha rao govt, but the govt wised up again and forced IAF to accept a tender instead of a single vendor purchase. IAF had to select a competing fighter which was the Su-30 against the Mirage in a face-off(yup tiny mirage against the 18 tonne Su-30... where was your Medium weight logic then IAF.. huh??). And we all know which one won in the end, against the IAF's wishes. But...

..Still they persisted!! And when the bjp govt came into power, they realized the incompetance and the dumb govt, and almost succeded in getting the Mirage(coupled with their over hype of Mirage during the kargil operations), but again their plans were foiled as that stupid govt was ousted and an experienced govt came into power.

Anthony wised up and floated a tender, and now the IAF started making this ridiculous Medium category logic and twisted and turned all requirements so that it would disqualify the Sukhois from competing in the tender. With Sukhois out, only Rafale/Mirage(before) could be the obvious winner. And they almost tasted the fruits of their cunning devious plan, if not for the unrelenting attribute of clean man Anthony who stuck to his position and fought off intense pressure both from the IAF and the Rafale to get this unnecessary gold plated fighter. Its because of Anthony, that Parrikar is even sticking to his stand(because if he accepts the french proposal suddenly after years of Anthony's correct stand he would get caught taking bribes), else he would have gotten kickbacks like all previous BJP defence ministers did so going by their track record.

yes, Rafale and Mirage are capable fighters, but not at the expense of ridiculous sums of money! We don't need a golden gun to protect a mud hut whose majority of inhabitants live for less than 1 dollar a day. The logic is both silly and stupid.

This rafale saga is a death blow to the rafale fanboy morons in this place, with no life, and stacking in post count for several years fighting for a fighter which for some weird reason gives them orgasm looking at it. Look back upon your time from your precious life wasted here, for you can never get it back!

Its a bit harsh but there are some nuggets of truth in this post IMHO.

 

[farhan_9909]

I have said this on ocassions

Unlike france,germany has only ditched india for once.

France ditched india by giving them a faulty design of LCA tejas and is the reason even today it is called a late combat aircraft.

They ditched india for the second time when they bribed the official to select a fighter which was once considered to be pulled out from the competition earlier

On the otherhand,germany has ditched india only once by giving them a faulty leopard 2a4 copy paste design under the indian name arjun.the design on rough basis is considered so much poor that now it is also sometime referred to as arjunk

 

[Su-11]

^ well truth is harsh!

FACT you say. Please provide credible and first hand sources and links for all of your claims that you've made so far

• Rafale's life cycle costs are 1/3rd of Sukhoi
• Rafale's CPFH is 1/2 of Sukhoi
• DM is a liar and Sukhoi does not cost 1/2 of Rafale.
• Rafale has higher serviceability and greater availability as compared to Sukhoi
• Rafale deal is $15-$16 billion and not $25-$30 billion

Do refute the points raised by @The Great One on this thread if you can
Over Rs 834 crore spent on Sukhoi maintenance | Page 2

You just killed this thread. No way could they give you links stipulating operating and maintanance costs because for a simple reason that there is no Rafale in indian service. All they have is a theory and a guess work on numbers to arrive at a figure. And numbers from other country's experience which is practically useless as India is not always subjected to the other county's advantages and disadvantages(not to mention french spare parts are immensely costly compared to cheap russian ones even if manufactured in india due to the complexity of it.). And like all defence, and I do mean ALL defence hardware, prices always ALWAYS jack up from initial estimates and guess work. Now they would be comparing that with FACTS, facts of Sukhoi's maintenance costs billed/invoiced to the exact rupee and submitted in the parliament. Comparing Rafale operating and maintanance costs to Sukhoi's will be comparing fiction with reality.


And BTW, the 100 million dollar sukhoi nonsense which has been going the rounds, it was 2 deals and our stupid media didnt have the intelligence to research it properly before reporting. India to Buy $3 Bln Worth of Russian Warplanes, Helicopters / Sputnik International The price of the final batch of the 42 Sukhois we stuck with the russians is no more than 38 million dollars each!!

 

[The enlightened]

^ well truth is harsh!


You just killed this thread. No way could they give you links stipulating operating and maintanance costs because for a simple reason that there is no Rafale in indian service. All they have is a theory and a guess work on numbers to arrive at a figure. And numbers from other country's experience which is practically useless as India is not always subjected to the other county's advantages and disadvantages(not to mention french spare parts are immensely costly compared to cheap russian ones even if manufactured in india due to the complexity of it.). And like all defence, and I do mean ALL defence hardware, prices always ALWAYS jack up from initial estimates and guess work. Now they would be comparing that with FACTS, facts of Sukhoi's maintenance costs billed/invoiced to the exact rupee and submitted in the parliament. Comparing Rafale operating and maintanance costs to Sukhoi's will be comparing fiction with reality.


And BTW, the 100 million dollar sukhoi nonsense which has been going the rounds, it was 2 deals and our stupid media didnt have the intelligence to research it properly before reporting. India to Buy $3 Bln Worth of Russian Warplanes, Helicopters / Sputnik International The price of the final batch of the 42 Sukhois we stuck with the russians is no more than 38 million dollars each!!

I read that link earlier too, but its only states that the price we pay to Irkut for CKD/SKD of MKI, not the final price we pay for a completed Sukhoi. Plus its only 1 link against hundreds of others so I'm not sure what to make of it.

As for op cost, lets see if they can even bring Sukhoi's cost out, let alone Rafale's of FAF.
Anyway, that the French are going to milk us dry is no surprise after the Mirage deal (~40mn per plane) and the deal for that puny MICA (~2.3mn per missile) that too for only 1 kind of weapon.

 

[Koovie]

Few days ago there was a news that India Shall not get PAKFA till 2025.

Should we stop talking about Pakfa also?

There are already several prototypes flying and being tested! While Tejas MKII is a paper plane!