Ditching Rafale

[Koovie]

No I won't recoment Grippen because with LCA MK2 we shall come close to grippen E. If we go for Tejas MK3 with stealth, we can srrpass Grippen NG. So there is no need to go for Grippen. Recruite a huge new talent on national mission basis and keep designing new planes and higher versions.

Dont talk about coming close to whatever plane until the Tejas MKII actually starts flying.

 

[TWINBLADE]

I always wanted to have FA/18- Super Hornet with all those new upgrades. I mean you can have a bomb truck with a cost of around $70M and high availability thanks to Boeing continuous upgrade.

 

[Koovie]

It makes sense, economically, politically and otherwise to go for the Su-30 instead.

No, the SU 30MKI A2G capabilities are no where near the Rafales. What India needs are multirole fighters since the IAFs Mig 27s and Jaguar attack aircraft will be retiring soon.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Wouldn't expect anything else from Mr Karnad who has been anti Rafale from the start.


The deal is still going ahead, there is no viable option the one there was (letting the EFT back into the race) has been flatly ruled out by the Defence Minister (God knows why). Buying more Su-30 is not going to boost the IAF rather be a drain on it for years to come.

It's interesting how people are calling the Su-30 the "economical" alternative to the Rafale when the Rafale would have around 1/3rd the life cycle cost, will be more available than the MKI fleet and costs about half the MKI to fly per hour!

Have no doubts, if the IAF are made to go for more MKIs the fleet will be worse off for it. There is a reason the IAF (the professionals) are pushing so hard for the Rafale, why don't all the armchair generals stop and ponder that for a moment?

I can't understand how price has got more than doubled within 3 years ? They have defeated the very purpose of the negotiations. .

It hasn't, that is a BLATANT LIE. The deal is worth $15-16 BN today, about a 25% increase from the cost quoted some 4-5 years ago, taking into account inflation and the rupees decline since then this is pretty reasonable.

 

[Indo-guy]

Wouldn't expect anything else from Mr Karnad who has been anti Rafale from the start.


The deal is still going ahead, there is no viable option the one there was (letting the EFT back into the race) has been flatly ruled out by the Defence Minister (God knows why). Buying more Su-30 is not going to boost the IAF rather be a drain on it for years to come.

It's interesting how people are calling the Su-30 the "economical" alternative to the Rafale when the Rafale would have around 1/3rd the life cycle cost, will be more available than the MKI fleet and costs about half the MKI to fly per hour!

Have no doubts, if the IAF are made to go for more MKIs the fleet will be worse off for it. There is a reason the IAF (the professionals) are pushing so hard for the Rafale, why don't all the armchair generals stop and ponder that for a moment?


It hasn't, that is a BLATANT LIE. The deal is worth $15-16 BN today, about a 25% increase from the cost quoted some 4-5 years ago, taking into account inflation and the rupees decline since then this is pretty reasonable.

what was the reason Dassault decided to tie up with Reliance ?

 

[Abingdonboy]

what was the reason Dassault decided to tie up with Reliance ?

Pretty simple- Reliance are a fully private profit maximising entity just like Dassualt, HAL is a DPSU with a different set of motivations and control structures to a corporation like Reliance. Corporations like Dassualt would always prefer to tie up with a similar entity to themselves like Reliance.

 

[Indo-guy]

Pretty simple- Reliance are a fully private profit maximising entity just like Dassualt, HAL is a DPSU with a different set of motivations and control structures to a corporation like Reliance. Corporations like Dassualt would always prefer to tie up with a similar entity to themselves like Reliance.

I doubt that is the only reason .
there are many other private profit maximizing entities ...why only reliance .

dassault knew very well the clout that Ambanis held in corridors of power .

and they meant to fully exploit the naivety of entities like Reliance as far as the whole business of production of fighter aircraft like Rafale is concerned .

 

[Abingdonboy]

I doubt that is the only reason .
there are many other private profit maximizing entities ...why only reliance .

dassault knew very well the clout that Ambanis held in corridors of power .

and they meant to fully exploit the naivety of entities like Reliance as far as the whole business of production of fighter aircraft like Rafale is concerned .

If that was the case Reliance would be involved in many more defence deals but it is other private entities like Tata, L&T and Mahindra that are involved in defence in a massive way and Reliance are nowhere, even in infrastructure they are loosing their market share. I don't buy they have a massive sway in the "corridors of power" at all.

And bro, let's not demonise Dassualt, they are doing what is best for them and their interests which, by the way, includes signing their first ever export deal. Don't think for a second they are going to let this deal fall through their fingers, this statement from the DM should focus their minds at least and I believe that was the intention of his remarks.

 

[Indo-guy]

If that was the case Reliance would be involved in many more defence deals but it is other private entities like Tata, L&T and Mahindra that are involved in defence in a massive way and Reliance are nowhere, even in infrastructure they are loosing their market share. I don't buy they have a massive sway in the "corridors of power" at all.

And bro, let's not demonise Dassualt, they are doing what is best for them and their interests which, by the way, includes signing their first ever export deal. Don't think for a second they are going to let this deal fall through their fingers, this statement from the DM should focus their minds at least and I believe that was the intention of his remarks.

exactly ...entity like Reliance which has no prior experience in any of the defence project whatsoever should not have been singled out by Dassault ....

and that is precisely the point ....this is the very Dassault which raised questions over HAL's capability to manufacture Rafale ...and how is that it considers Reliance worthy of tie up ? just being the private profit making entity is the only virtue of reliance that lured Dassault into tying up Reliance ?
It is too much to swallow for me .

It looks quite suspiciois to me ...and I tend to believe the reasons explained by Mr Karnad .

do you think Mr karnad has got personal enmity with Dassault ?

You seem to draw that kind of inference when you say Mr karnad has been anti Dassault since very beginning .

 

[jha]

exactly ...entity like Reliance which has no prior experience in any of the defence project whatsoever should not have been singled out by Dassault ....

and that is precisely the point ....this is the very Dassault which raised questions over HAL's capability to manufacture Rafale ...and how is that it considers Reliance worthy of tie up ? just the private profit making entity is the only virtue of reliance that lured Dassault into tying up Relaince .

It is too much to swallow for me .

It looks quite suspiciois to me ...and I tend to believe the reasons expounded by Mr Karnad .

do you think Mr karnad has got personal enmity with Dassault ?

You tend to make that kind of reference when you say Mr karnad has been anti Dassault since very beginning .

Its just not Mr. Karnad, A no. of people started to get suspicious when Reliance's name came up. Ambanis have built a huge Industrial powerhouse but this has also ensured they have a certain reputation. And that reputation certainly not helps Dassault's case.

Now that RM has made it clear that even the quoted price of one Rafale is double of the current Cost of Su-30 MKI, the deal does not seem economically viable. Actual price may very well be much more if one goes by France's past records. A practical leadership will think twice before going into such a costly deal. Especially when France's reputation of a neutral supplier has taken a hit in Mistral Case.

 

[TopCat]

With this current economic condition India just cant afford a western plane. Now they are coming up with all sorts of beniya excuses.

 

[vayuu1]

Yaar jo bhi karo bas jaldi karo.

 

[magudi]

Am not pro rafale or against it and i do understand that parrikar might be a tough guy to negotiate with on RFP but the deal is still very much ON i believe.

 

[Indo-guy]

Am not pro rafale or against it and i do understand that parrikar might be a tough guy to negotiate with on RFP but the deal is still very much ON i believe.

Nobody has said that the deal is ' over ' ... ( at least so far )

People are debating whether the deal should be kept on or not ... and why it should be so ...

it is possible that the deal will be consummated eventually ...but getting right deal with proper negotiations...is also important .

this is not just about getting 126 - 4.5 gen battle worthy aircraft ....it is also about value for money ...at cost of 30-40 billion dollars ....and we must leverage the money we are spending in the best possible way .

 

[Abingdonboy]

.

Now that RM has made it clear that even the quoted price of one Rafale is double of the current Cost of Su-30 MKI, the deal does not seem economically viable. Actual price may very well be much more if one goes by France's past records. A practical leadership will think twice before going into such a costly deal. Especially when France's reputation of a neutral supplier has taken a hit in Mistral Case.

It's funny how the economics of The MKI only extend to unit/off the shelf costs and no one making this argument seems to factor in life cycle costs (which the MMRCA deal does by the way). Whilst the Rafale is that bit more expensive than the MKI upfront (nowhere near the twice as costly mark however, look at how much the latest batch of MKIs are costing the IAF- almost $100 million a piece) it is about 2-3 times cheaper to operate over the course of its life.

Additionally I don't know if there is any open source empirical data on this but the likes of the Rafale and all western designed fighters are vastly easier to maintain than any Russian origin product.

It's hilarious how everyone now has rose tinted glasses on now when it comes to the Russians and the after sales support (or lack thereof) and availability of their products in indian service. There is a very legitimate reason to move away from the Russians as defence suppliers, they have proven time and again that they are not capable of matching international standards on support and maintainability.

The MKI is not a viable alternative to the Rafale/MMRCA and never was or are we forgetting the reason this competion was launched (to find a complimentary aircraft to the top end MKIs and bottom end LCAs)?


The anti-Dassualt sentiment on here is being fuelled by half truths and down right lies from the indian media.