Distorting of opinions over Indo-Pak war 02-2019

[The Accountant]

So you are basically saying, we need to wait until Indians actually start killing our on ground troops, before our PM may declare emergency?
Sorry that's never going to happen... India can kill 10 of Pakistani soldiers on daily basis but Pakistani politicians would never let go their power.

Yes, i really thing spice 2000 missed the target, how? only explanation is incompetency.

FYI, Pakistani politicians earn respect and value, just because of army.
If we have no army, no world leader would give a hoot about Pakistani politicians.



My PoV is that Pakistan should not have sent 2 pilots across the line of control, with instructions not to shoot any one.
I'm being realistic here, it was far too risky... the odds of our pilots making safely back home was 1%.
Our Politicians are not taking wise decisions, they are acting selfish and clearly are not hesitant to send our soldiers to sure death.
India definitely provide such opportunities periodically, but only to regimes of it's own choice.
Would India choose to give such opportunity to Musharraf govt.? NEVER.
Currently, your present govt. doesn't have legal jurisdiction to decide on matters of war.
Soon mantle of war decision will be passed on to new govt. and we'll take on from their, but one thing is clear, in next opportunity, India will be more prepared and i don't expect Pakistan to rise atop in every opportunity.
What i do believe, with 1000 dead bodies on Indian side, it will be difficult for India to go further into the war or again go to the direction of strategic missile show.

Yes we should wait ...

first of all you decide yourself who is decision maker here ... at one time u r saying that all gains of politicians are gift of army then if you have some negative opinion then army should be blamed for that negative decision... you cant have both ways ... make up your mind so that a serious discussion can be done rather than useless blame game like muhallay ko antiyan ...

Secondly dont behave like indians that winning one skirmish means we have become undisputed super power ... even if we strike first how many soldiers can we take as an element of surprise ? 100,200 or may be 300 ... they r twice of our size ...

May be we can take out 10 or 20 aircrafts ... still they have alot more ...

Surprise and advance attack will damage them less than .1% .. then what ? R our soldiers and public are made of metal ... will we not burn from missiles and bombs ?

War should be avoided unless absolutely necessary...

Furthermore' anybody who thinks that this was Imran Khan solo decision without consent of armed forces and intelligence agencies than he is living in fool's paradise ... infact in such a situation intelligence agencies plays the most active part ...

 

[Mav3rick]

Really, which elections were during Kargil, or Parliament attacks, or Mumbai attacks, or Pathankot, or Uri?

Elections or other important factors where the aim is to divert the public focus somewhere else or to get something done. Mumbai attacks laid down the foundation for Indian Forces to enhance their case on internal surveillance on Indian civilians which they eventually got approved after Parliamentary attacks. There is always a reason, suitable to India, for all so called Terrorist attacks in India; Pakistan has never gained anything from those attacks.

Now for your half a million number, Indian army's standing straight about 1.2 million, if half a million are in Kashmir valley, that leaves 300 million a piece for the rest of the eastern and western border, i.e with 500 million strength Pakistan has a 1.6 time numerical superiority against India is the rest of the border.

J&K houses the northen command of Indian army, i.e XIV Corps (Leh), XV Corps (Srinagar) and XVI Corps (Nagrota) control the operational units in Northern Command. Off course there will be large contingent in the state, no where it means 500 million soldiers stationed to counter insurgency.

Please visit my post again and try to understand it, basically you need to figure out why India requires over half a million strong military in such a small place such as occupied Kashmir.

 

[MilSpec]

Elections or other important factors where the aim is to divert the public focus somewhere else or to get something done. Mumbai attacks laid down the foundation for Indian Forces to enhance their case on internal surveillance on Indian civilians which they eventually got approved after Parliamentary attacks. There is always a reason, suitable to India, for all so called Terrorist attacks in India; Pakistan has never gained anything from those attacks.

And yet, Your Military fights alongside terror organisations in kargil? From Illiayas kahsmiri, to Masood Azhar, to Omar shiekh to Khalid Sheikh Mohhamad to Mullah omar to OBL all find refuge in Pakistan. All of surrendered militants attest to ISI trainers in militants camps, in kashmir we find grenades with PoF marking, while Pakistani Artillery finds way in siege of kabul. You are quite right, irrespective your own President/COAS two of your PM's, and multitude of generals on record admitting to Pakistans role in terrorism in India; there always is going to be some activity in India to claim it as false flag.
Even if the precedence of Pakistan Army planned operation of Kargil, that included Pakistani army regulars dressed in shalwar Kameez fighting along side Mujhideen groups like LeT, Harkat Ul Mujhihideen, Hizb ul mujhihideen and Al Badr, masquerading as kashmiri Mujhhideens themselves is not enough of evidence of Pakistans use of "so called" Non State Actors as state policy; I am sure that too could be blamed on elections kerela or some other ulterior motive of the Indian state.

Please visit my post again and try to understand it, basically you need to figure out why India requires over half a million strong military in such a small place such as occupied Kashmir.

Same reason why it deploys Iron man, Hulk and rest of the avengers in Gujarat; that half a million is concoction of fantasy thus there is nothing to explain there.

 

[I.R.A]

that half a million is concoction of fantasy thus there is nothing to explain there.

I hope people understand 500,000 is actually half a million ......

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/form...d-by-russian-female-anchor-must-watch.608038/

@Joe Shearer mohtaram @10:40 and onward ........ the show host says something like and I quote "There are 500,000 indian troops stationed in IOK"

And your ex ambassador has no problems with this number. Unchallenged.

Hopefully it is understood that it is an internationally accepted number now. Per indian standards.

 

[Mav3rick]

And yet, Your Military fights alongside terror organisations in kargil? From Illiayas kahsmiri, to Masood Azhar, to Omar shiekh to Khalid Sheikh Mohhamad to Mullah omar to OBL all find refuge in Pakistan. All of surrendered militants attest to ISI trainers in militants camps, in kashmir we find grenades with PoF marking, while Pakistani Artillery finds way in siege of kabul. You are quite right, irrespective your own President/COAS two of your PM's, and multitude of generals on record admitting to Pakistans role in terrorism in India; there always is going to be some activity in India to claim it as false flag.
Even if the precedence of Pakistan Army planned operation of Kargil, that included Pakistani army regulars dressed in shalwar Kameez fighting along side Mujhideen groups like LeT, Harkat Ul Mujhihideen, Hizb ul mujhihideen and Al Badr, masquerading as kashmiri Mujhhideens themselves is not enough of evidence of Pakistans use of "so called" Non State Actors as state policy; I am sure that too could be blamed on elections kerela or some other ulterior motive of the Indian state.

Were you providing support, training, arms and weapons to Mukti Bahini?

Same reason why it deploys Iron man, Hulk and rest of the avengers in Gujarat; that half a million is concoction of fantasy thus there is nothing to explain there.

I cannot compete with that, I mean an Indian who either doesn't know what half a million is or has no clue about the number of forces deployed in occupied Kashmir is someone against whom I just cannot argue!

 

[Enigma SIG]

Arguing with the Indian's is just futile.
There are literally x7 indians for every Pakistani. You can't engage them in a fruitful discussion because loud voices drown out the sane ones.

 

[Kedardel]

What essentially u asking is detterent by causing damage of personnels in India.
While I understand ur anguish, let’s give credit to decision makers. No Force goes with plans on odds with 1% of returning back. Planning is done for having odds increased. Professionals know their jobs. They know when to get in, achieve targets, create mess and get out when the odds are still fair.
I don’t believe Pakistan sent pilots with instructions not to shoot. Can such instructions ever be issued ? (I know parameters of engagement r fixed) do u believe that planners didn’t plan for what to do when Winco Abhi is following up with his Mig crossing LOC with all arms hot ?
The current PM in Pakistan leads a coalition govt. if I am not wrong. Pakistani PM is not even a military guy, who can fix rules of engagement. By nature of his profile he has to abide by what his military advisors say. Similarly, Indian PM left to Indian Forces. Indian PM may or may not even know what Spice or r77 weapon is.
May be you know something more than what is there in public space.
In a country like India which loses 1,50,000 per annum in road accidents, killing 1000 would mean adding fuel to fire nothing else. It won’t act as deterrent.
In any case the real situation for Pakistan is on other border.

My PoV is that Pakistan should not have sent 2 pilots across the line of control, with instructions not to shoot any one.
I'm being realistic here, it was far too risky... the odds of our pilots making safely back home was 1%.
Our Politicians are not taking wise decisions, they are acting selfish and clearly are not hesitant to send our soldiers to sure death.
India definitely provide such opportunities periodically, but only to regimes of it's own choice.
Would India choose to give such opportunity to Musharraf govt.? NEVER.
Currently, your present govt. doesn't have legal jurisdiction to decide on matters of war.
Soon mantle of war decision will be passed on to new govt. and we'll take on from their, but one thing is clear, in next opportunity, India will be more prepared and i don't expect Pakistan to rise atop in every opportunity.
What i do believe, with 1000 dead bodies on Indian side, it will be difficult for India to go further into the war or again go to the direction of strategic missile show.

 

[El Sidd]

Is peace worth lying for?

 

[MilSpec]

Were you providing support, training, arms and weapons to Mukti Bahini?

Yes, We have never denied it, IG went on an international tour to make it clear we will take actions if PA did not stop it's genocide. Our army got directly involved, so much so it was our Army that exacted the instrument of surrender within 14 days, the largest unilateral surrender since WWII of a standing army.
BUT our army was not masquerading as Mukti Bahini wearing civilian clothing, and we were ready to face any consequence to the effect to standing up to the full wrath of nixon's 7th fleet. Our MEA wasn't on record claiming India had not involvement unlike ISPR's conduct during kargil
Also a simple thing to comprehend during; 71 was, Mukti Bahini, was never a terror outfit, it was not mowing down civilians in 5 star hotels in islamabad, nor was it conducting grenade attacks in market squares in rawalpindi. Post independence Mukti Bahini immediately disbanded and was de-militarized; to the effect your own country recognized Bangladesh as a nation. If you really thought it's creation was an act of terror, why recognise the country; you could have kept your claim alive till date as a disputed territory; like J&K.

Now instead of whatabouterry ; how do you explain the conduct of denial of using non state actors in kargil? how do you differentiate between PA and Mujhideen, when one like to masquerade as the other? Was anyone prosecuted for mounting the Kargil operation? Who was held accountable in prosecuted by your courts? (different matter is architect of kargil dismissed your courts, which is comedy on a completely different level)

I cannot compete with that, I mean an Indian who either doesn't know what half a million is or has no clue about the number of forces deployed in occupied Kashmir is someone against whom I just cannot argue!

On contrary, the poor masses that have been hoodwinked by ISPR propaganda for decades and still chew on the same candy day in day out, are gullible enough to think Indian Army deploys 41% of it;s strength in valley, leaving rest of frontiers unchecked.

 

[Mav3rick]

Yes, We have never denied it, IG went on an international tour to make it clear we will take actions if PA did not stop it's genocide. Our army got directly involved, so much so it was our Army that exacted the instrument of surrender within 14 days, the largest unilateral surrender since WWII of a standing army.
BUT our army was not masquerading as Mukti Bahini wearing civilian clothing, and we were ready to face any consequence to the effect to standing up to the full wrath of nixon's 7th fleet. Our MEA wasn't on record claiming India had not involvement unlike ISPR's conduct during kargil
Also a simple thing to comprehend during; 71 was, Mukti Bahini, was never a terror outfit, it was not mowing down civilians in 5 star hotels in islamabad, nor was it conducting grenade attacks in market squares in rawalpindi. Post independence Mukti Bahini immediately disbanded and was de-militarized; to the effect your own country recognized Bangladesh as a nation. If you really thought it's creation was an act of terror, why recognise the country; you could have kept your claim alive till date as a disputed territory; like J&K.

You denied and kept on denying involvement with Mukti Bahini, of training them and on providing weapons to them to fight the state of Pakistan, you flamed and stroked the fire in that region and meddled in the affairs of a sovereign nation's internal problems. And you got the instrument of surrender because you got involved by the time Pakistan was also ready to let go of Bangladesh. As I said earlier, I too can imagine half of India on the other side of a 7 times bigger Pakistan, embroiled in a freedom struggle because of the other India's biased attitude with the entire 130 million or so population against India and a good 100k+ active militant movement against Indian Military........yeah I can imagine India winning that war!!!

Just to clear your misconception, Mukti Bahini was the precise description of a terrorist outfit, it was fighting the state! It was waging an illegal armed resistance against the sovereignty of Pakistan. The Americans fought against the British and then recognized Britain as a sovereign country. France, Germany, Spain, the entire Europe waged wars with each other and so on and so forth but established commerce and trade after the wars and similarly, Pakistan accepted Bangladesh as a free state.

Moving on, even if we consider it an act of goodwill by India towards Bangladesh and the so called genocide there, you cannot equate genocide in Bangladesh to genocide in Kashmir? Simply because 1 suited your interests and the other doesn't? Besides, I was equating your involvement in Bangladesh and your support to Mukti Bahni to our our involvement in Kashmir and support to Kashmiri freedom struggle, the only difference being that we do not provide weapons to Kashmiri Mujahideen while you were providing weapons to Mukti Bahini to fight the state of Pakistan.

Now instead of whatabouterry ; how do you explain the conduct of denial of using non state actors in kargil? how do you differentiate between PA and Mujhideen, when one like to masquerade as the other? Was anyone prosecuted for mounting the Kargil operation? Who was held accountable in prosecuted by your courts? (different matter is architect of kargil dismissed your courts, which is comedy on a completely different level)

Kargil, was a military operation undertaken by irregulars and volunteers. It was NOT an active Military operation and so was denied as one, initially for strategic surprise and later on to avoid diplomatic pressure from around the world. Nobody was masquerading as anyone as most were already irregulars, they were only inducted into regular military after the military witnessed their intense fighting skill and will.

And why the hell would anybody be held accountable for a military operation? Did you hold anyone accountable for Siachin?

On contrary, the poor masses that have been hoodwinked by ISPR propaganda for decades and still chew on the same candy day in day out, are gullible enough to think Indian Army deploys 41% of it;s strength in valley, leaving rest of frontiers unchecked.

As I said before, I cannot argue with someone who insists on lying! Especially when I have no idea why the person insists on lying.

 

[jzeebravo]

The title is misleading, it is preposterous to call it an Indo-Pak war. It was a minor skirmish between two heavily armed adversaries and the treatment of Abhinandan was in accordance to that.

Last time when an Indian pilot was captured (Nachikita), he was afforded a different kind of welcome and farewell, this time it was different and should not be compared with earlier conflicts.

 

[MilSpec]

we do not provide weapons to Kashmiri Mujahideen while you were providing weapons to Mukti Bahini to fight the state of Pakistan.


Nobody was masquerading as anyone as most were already irregulars, they were only inducted into regular military after the military witnessed their intense fighting skill and will.

As I said before, I cannot argue with someone who insists on lying! Especially when I have no idea why the person insists on lying.

ROFL; Dude it's getting embarrassing now. Are you responding to your own posts too?

And why the hell would anybody be held accountable for a military operation? Did you hold anyone accountable for Siachin?

Siachin, Indian Army operation, Held by Indian Army, not Armed forces masquerading non state actors in shalwar Kameez.

 

[Mav3rick]

ROFL; Dude it's getting embarrassing now. Are you responding to your own posts too?

Your decision to jump onto this discussion must have been the embarrassing moment. And it must further be ridiculously embarrassing for you that my post is not only perfectly aligned and well documented but also in harmony unlike the gibberish you posted above. Perhaps, you are incapable of understanding articulately laid out paras.

Siachin, Indian Army operation, Held by Indian Army, not Armed forces masquerading non state actors in shalwar Kameez.

And here we go again, no clue as to what was being debated but the nonsense nature to harp on endlessly and senselessly! Nevertheless, you posted about prosecution for Kargil and I referred to Siachin on the same matter.

And very convenient to hide the part about Indian Military presence in Occupied Kashmir!

 

[MilSpec]

Your decision to jump onto this discussion must have been the embarrassing moment. And it must further be ridiculously embarrassing for you that my post is not only perfectly aligned and well documented but also in harmony unlike the gibberish you posted above. Perhaps, you are incapable of understanding articulately laid out paras.





And here we go again, no clue as to what was being debated but the nonsense nature to harp on endlessly and senselessly! Nevertheless, you posted about prosecution for Kargil and I referred to Siachin on the same matter.

And very convenient to hide the part about Indian Military presence in Occupied Kashmir!

Not at all, I am just entertained with the usual slag slapping, you are as delusional and misinformed as expected of majority of this platform, given that too is state policy of your propaganda ministry.

First, your claim was, every terror activity has election involved, when humiliated on that front went to India's nefarious design against Indian citizens, and Pakistan doesn't gain, when reminded of Pakistan Army direct involvement in Kargil masquerading as militants, went into kargil denial mode, If you insist of being a laughing stock , that is your choice. Check your your own DG MI, GoC X Corp, and Ex- COAS take on kargil, learn a bit, and then come back.


ISPR's position :

https://newslinemagazine.com/magazine/book-r-eview-from-kargil-to-the-coup/
From Kargil to the Coup: Events that shook Pakistan, written by friend and journalist Nasim Zehra, encapsulates the contradictions, the falsehoods, the imprudent policies and the absence of any long-term vision behind the Kargil operation. The book draws heavily on the author’s excellent personal contacts and access to those who matter in Pakistan’s power matrix, both in the military and the civilian power houses. Consequently, it offers an authentic wealth of knowledge on how Operation Koh Paima (OKP) evolved and eventually left many, in and outside the country, befuddled.

The book details incisively this reckless operation that the ‘Kargil Clique,’ led by the army chief General Pervez Musharraf, and including Generals Javed Hassan and Aziz Khan, imposed on the army and the country. The hasty withdrawal agreement that the then prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, signed in Washington on July 4, says Ms Zehra, generated internal pressures on the army’s top brass for the simple reason that until early July, the ISPR (Inter-Services Public Relations) had insisted that the “mujahideen” were holding on to the peaks in Kargil and Dras and that there had been no reversals.

 

[Mav3rick]

Not at all, I am just entertained with the usual slag slapping, you are as delusional and misinformed as expected of majority of this platform, given that too is state policy of your propaganda ministry.

First, your claim was, every terror activity has election involved, when humiliated on that front went to India's nefarious design against Indian citizens, and Pakistan doesn't gain, when reminded of Pakistan Army direct involvement in Kargil masquerading as militants, went into kargil denial mode, If you insist of being a laughing stock , that is your choice. Check your your own DG MI, GoC X Corp, and Ex- COAS take on kargil, learn a bit, and then come back.


ISPR's position :

https://newslinemagazine.com/magazine/book-r-eview-from-kargil-to-the-coup/
From Kargil to the Coup: Events that shook Pakistan, written by friend and journalist Nasim Zehra, encapsulates the contradictions, the falsehoods, the imprudent policies and the absence of any long-term vision behind the Kargil operation. The book draws heavily on the author’s excellent personal contacts and access to those who matter in Pakistan’s power matrix, both in the military and the civilian power houses. Consequently, it offers an authentic wealth of knowledge on how Operation Koh Paima (OKP) evolved and eventually left many, in and outside the country, befuddled.

The book details incisively this reckless operation that the ‘Kargil Clique,’ led by the army chief General Pervez Musharraf, and including Generals Javed Hassan and Aziz Khan, imposed on the army and the country. The hasty withdrawal agreement that the then prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, signed in Washington on July 4, says Ms Zehra, generated internal pressures on the army’s top brass for the simple reason that until early July, the ISPR (Inter-Services Public Relations) had insisted that the “mujahideen” were holding on to the peaks in Kargil and Dras and that there had been no reversals.

Basically, you are stumped on the fact that most of the so called terrorist attacks are actually false flag operations by the Indians themselves as well as the fact that all such incidents are activated to achieve results; your attempt to conveniently divert attention from the fact that India passed the controversial surveillance law immediately after Mumbai Operation which was being resisted before the Mumbai Operation is testament to the fact that it was a false flag operation.

And it is sad that you are unable to comprehend the difference b/w a military planned operation such as Kargil and a military operation such as Siachin, the similarities between them and the plausible deniability by the former as opposed to the later. And your misunderstanding of the word 'masquerade'; I could even have digested the word covert, for the dressing of fighters there. I know you are still hurting from Kargil and will continue to do so but does that mean you have to lie about it and to tag other incidents with Kargil?