Distorting of opinions over Indo-Pak war 02-2019

[HAIDER]

o bhai... all what you state is because of Pak armed forces /PAF, how they conducted their operations. What shall we credit to political leadership ?
Political leadership handed over captive in night time, without inviting international press!
On Indian side, Indians only know their leadership giving dead line to Imran Khan!
UN was totally kept out of Indian violation of Pakistani borders.

We can't control Indian media. May be good idea to presenting Indian pilot in front of international media. But , still lots of senior journalist said, we don't know what is going inside the 4 walls. Lot of things remain secret and never comes out.
I think IK did enough to return the national pride. Even though some Western countries and our muslim friends try stop Pakistan not to strike back India. But, Pakistan did it.

 

[MilSpec]

Yes but Indians didn't requested return of PoW!
Eventually they have no bar to return your PoW.


You are trying to win the war for Indians with words after the tactical victory of Pakistan.
No amount of statements can be used as evidence.
Since no one is going back to verify the statements you quoted, its a moot.
Neither you can justify your late reaction to statements made after past war. I'm sure there are hindered of statements who would be in disagreement to what you are typing.

Win a War? If there was one, the only way to win it would be exacting unilateral surrender.

My post was directed to show, how hollow the non state actor drama is that Pakistan often displays, thus there it leaves us no options.

 

[BATMAN]

We can't control Indian media. May be good idea to presenting Indian pilot in front of international media. But , still lots of senior journalist said, we don't know what is going inside the 4 walls. Lot of things remain secret and never comes out.
I think IK did enough to return the national pride. Even though some Western countries and our muslim friends try stop Pakistan not to strike back India. But, Pakistan did it.

If you follow the events from day before, Pakistani pilots were not allowed to shoot any Indian soldier or infrastructure.
Clearly the results of Air battle was not in line with the ideas of our political leadership.
Perhaps they were not expecting Pakistani pilots to make home alive.
While Indian pilot was least, our political leadership was ready to handle.
Now if we continue to the events after, immediately after the release, Pakistan filed papers for IK's peace prize, which was a key dot... helped in understanding the basic picture.
In continuation to the afore mentioned drama, day after Pakistan let go Indian sub, objective as you pointed was international publicity instead of focusing on what is better for us.
If Indian sub had been sinked, no one in world would know. Neither India would accept tat Pakistan can killed a sub of 6x more bigger navy.
How wonderful situation it would have been for Pakistan, IAF demoralized, Indian navy demoralized, Bipin demoralized!

 

[Kedardel]

POW does not only mean a soldier captured in war. It also means a soldier captured in armed hostilities.

You want to attack terrorist with all your military? Lead by General Bipin!
If it was no war than Abhinandan wasn't PoW either.

 

[BATMAN]

POW does not only mean a soldier captured in war. It also means a soldier captured in armed hostilities.

Clearly you people have difference of opinion.
I originally was under the impression your pilot was PoW.
Your state never accepted Abhinadan as a PoW.
Actually from my position, i think it was not your dead line in works, but rather some one of Pakistan's cabinet minister or jinn, who told IK that he will be famous internationally, with immediate release of captive. Which is true for the time being.

 

[Kedardel]

That’s what Geneva convention says. Not my opinion.
And u believe the PM doesn’t listen to military advisors ? Or u think the decision to leave the pilot was of politicians alone without due consideration from military point of view ?

Clearly you people have difference of opinion.
I originally was under the impression your pilot was PoW.
Your state never accepted Abhinadan as a PoW.
Actually from my position, i think it was not your dead line in works, but rather some one of Pakistan's cabinet minister or jinn, who told IK that he will be famous internationally, with immediate release of captive. Which is true for the time being.

 

[HAIDER]

If you follow the events from day before, Pakistani pilots were not allowed to shoot any Indian soldier or infrastructure.
Clearly the results of Air battle was not in line with the ideas of our political leadership.
Perhaps they were not expecting Pakistani pilots to make home alive.
While Indian pilot was least, our political leadership was ready to handle.
Now if we continue to the events after, immediately after the release, Pakistan filed papers for IK's peace prize, which was a key dot... helped in understanding the basic picture.
In continuation to the afore mentioned drama, day after Pakistan let go Indian sub, objective as you pointed was international publicity instead of focusing on what is better for us.
If Indian sub had been sinked, no one in world would know. Neither India would accept tat Pakistan can killed a sub of 6x more bigger navy.
How wonderful situation it would have been for Pakistan, IAF demoralized, Indian navy demoralized, Bipin demoralized!

Well, as far as sub concern that was inside common water way for trade. UN water law prohibit to strike any vessel inside such trade zones. Even its military vessel. But, that was dangerous posture of Indian armed forces.

 

[blain2]

Hi, I have seen mods. and officials distorting member's opinion and continuously reverting to the myopic view of releasing Indian pilot, which was not the ONLY thing happened in the war.

Let's get the basics straight to avoid the confusions.

I have firm belief:
WAR IS NO SOLUTION. PEACE SHOULD BE LONG LASTING.

At the same time, I also believe:
Pakistan's political handling of situation and events which unfolded after India's declaration and act of war, had NO contribution in peace.
I'm also not in agreement of Peace Prize nomination filed by govt. of Pakistan, perhaps later with drawn.
People may hold difference of opinion, but they have no right to wrongly paint opponent's opinion, i claim it as an act of evil.

Again for the sake of correcting the record:
I believe; PoW should be treated as defined in Geneva conventions and must be reciprocated by the opposite side as well.
Treating PoW as VIP guests is something i don't agree to, for various reasons but mainly because, Pakistan have had PoW in past and they were as well treated according to Geneva regulations, so this new way clearly is seen as disrespectful to the past army officers who have fought wars with India, with much less resources. This aspect can be left open to be discussed later.

Hope above opening, would eliminate the possibility to blame and accuse member's opinions contrary to the facts, which unfortunately is a trait here, and i have proven it many a times and will continue to do so. Hope it's also clear.

Now starting with conveniently ignored FACTS of political mishandling:
Indian pilot was released in middle of war, without agreeing to cease fire.
AF was ordered not to hit any of Indian military's supply depots, Indian military personals, Indian military infrastructure, and later also not to sunk intruding Indian sub.


So guys let's continue to roll here.
Did some one ever wrongly translated your opinion?

BM, one factual error. No war was declared as such there is no start, middle or end. It was a skirmish. Similar to ones in which our troops engage on the LoC. There have been cases of Pakistan returning Indian soldiers even during such skirmishes. Our holding a soldier or a pilot had fleeting value. If there was an actual war going on then you can maybe hold the PoWs so we can exchange. That wasn't the case. The return actually paved the way for back-channel diplomacy with the Indian NSA calling up DG ISI. So the exchange helped with smoothing things out.

Not hitting military targets was a stroke of genius in my opinion because it showed our capability and the relatively benign intent. The other side got the message that actual targets could have been hit. Neither side wants a war but you have to leave an out for the other side with face saving. This goes for us and for them depending on the situation.

I think this was handled very well by the Pakistan side including IK, FO and the military.

 

[BATMAN]

Well, as far as sub concern that was inside common water way for trade. UN water law prohibit to strike any vessel inside such trade zones. Even its military vessel. But, that was dangerous posture of Indian armed forces.

Fair enough... still it was a hostile situation. Sinking Indian sub would only demoralized Indian navy.

 

[HAIDER]

Fair enough... still it was a hostile situation. Sinking Indian sub would only demoralized Indian navy.

When country has bad economy , don't expect any bold action. Specially, when its your neighbor.

 

[BATMAN]

BM, one factual error. No war was declared as such there is no start, middle or end. It was a skirmish. Similar to ones in which our troops engage on the LoC. There have been cases of Pakistan returning Indian soldiers even during such skirmishes. Our holding a soldier or a pilot had fleeting value. If there was an actual war going on then you can maybe hold the PoWs so we can exchange. That wasn't the case. The return actually paved the way for back-channel diplomacy with the Indian NSA calling up DG ISI. So the exchange helped with smoothing things out.

Not hitting military targets was a stroke of genius in my opinion because it showed our capability and the relatively benign intent. The other side got the message that actual targets could have been hit. Neither side wants a war but you have to leave an out for the other side with face saving. This goes for us and for them depending on the situation.

I think this was handled very well by the Pakistan side including IK, FO and the military.

Whenever in history, Indian army settled in war posture along Pak borders, our past generals have consider it as war maneuver.
Yes... India was not allowed to cross Pak border anywhere but they did tried at various places.

Rest you clearly understood, no one is objecting return of captive but it has more to do with Indian PM's deadline.

And what sort of PM would send his soldiers to ''skirmish'', without permission to shoot enemy.

Another question emerging is that... would Pakistan continue to play Indian game of skirmishes for another half century?
Do we still believe, India will let go Kashmir on table?

About the NSA prick, He is the one who has been selling cold war to to Indian politicians.
If i was ISI, i would have demanded unconditional repatriation of Brahamdagh Bugti's, nothing more nothing less.

 

[The Accountant]

Hi, I have seen mods. and officials distorting member's opinion and continuously reverting to the myopic view of releasing Indian pilot, which was not the ONLY thing happened in the war.

Let's get the basics straight to avoid the confusions.

I have firm belief:
WAR IS NO SOLUTION. PEACE SHOULD BE LONG LASTING.

At the same time, I also believe:
Pakistan's political handling of situation and events which unfolded after India's declaration and act of war, had NO contribution in peace.
I'm also not in agreement of Peace Prize nomination filed by govt. of Pakistan, perhaps later with drawn.
People may hold difference of opinion, but they have no right to wrongly paint opponent's opinion, i claim it as an act of evil.

Again for the sake of correcting the record:
I believe; PoW should be treated as defined in Geneva conventions and must be reciprocated by the opposite side as well.
Treating PoW as VIP guests is something i don't agree to, for various reasons but mainly because, Pakistan have had PoW in past and they were as well treated according to Geneva regulations, so this new way clearly is seen as disrespectful to the past army officers who have fought wars with India, with much less resources. This aspect can be left open to be discussed later.

Hope above opening, would eliminate the possibility to blame and accuse member's opinions contrary to the facts, which unfortunately is a trait here, and i have proven it many a times and will continue to do so. Hope it's also clear.

Now starting with conveniently ignored FACTS of political mishandling:
Indian pilot was released in middle of war, without agreeing to cease fire.
AF was ordered not to hit any of Indian military's supply depots, Indian military personals, Indian military infrastructure, and later also not to sunk intruding Indian sub.


So guys let's continue to roll here.
Did some one ever wrongly translated your opinion?

First of all you need understand no military has started yet ... if it starts then you will not be able to use internet mark my words ...

The real war is information war ... why do you think that military planners advertised vip treatment of abhinandan ? Were they happy with the indian aggression ? No it was need to please but india but to gain sympathy of the world that even tough we were attacked and we were acting in defence but still we fought well and not only we fought well but we also treated aggressor with love ... this was part of information war ...

Do u really think that indian spice bomb missed the targets ? Spice bomb was never meant to attack terrorist but it was part of information war just to create an impression in mind of general public of sub continent that india is supperior ...

By releasing the pilto we won support of others ... just look at the news headlines of international papers and they r praising this move ...

 

[Kedardel]

Your point of view is very clear. Pakistan should have used more muscular approach. Should have caused damage to Indian force assets at every possible opportunity.
U see the opportunity is not lost. India keeps having these attacks every year or two. And now it’s very clear that the present govt. will give u such opportunities again and again by crossing borders again. Just wait for the next opportunity. Even if this Indian govt. changes, even then the pressure will be on next govt.s, in cases like Mumbai attacks etc., to give u more opportunities. I hope by then ur point of view will prevail.

Whenever in history, Indian army settled in war posture along Pak borders, our past generals have consider it as war maneuver.
Yes... India was not allowed to cross Pak border anywhere but they did tried at various places.
Rest you clearly understood, no one is objecting return of captive but it has more to do with Indian PM's deadline.
And what sort of PM would send his soldiers to ''skirmish'', without permission to shoot enemy.
Another question emerging is that... would Pakistan continue to play Indian game of skirmishes for another half century?
Do we still believe, India will let go Kashmir on table?
About the NSA prick, He is the one who has been selling cold war to to Indian politicians.
If i was ISI, i would have demanded unconditional repatriation of Brahamdagh Bugti's, nothing more nothing less.

 

[BATMAN]

First of all you need understand no military has started yet ... if it starts then you will not be able to use internet mark my words ...

The real war is information war ... why do you think that military planners advertised vip treatment of abhinandan ? Were they happy with the indian aggression ? No it was need to please but india but to gain sympathy of the world that even tough we were attacked and we were acting in defence but still we fought well and not only we fought well but we also treated aggressor with love ... this was part of information war ...

Do u really think that indian spice bomb missed the targets ? Spice bomb was never meant to attack terrorist but it was part of information war just to create an impression in mind of general public of sub continent that india is supperior ...

By releasing the pilto we won support of others ... just look at the news headlines of international papers and they r praising this move ...

So you are basically saying, we need to wait until Indians actually start killing our on ground troops, before our PM may declare emergency?
Sorry that's never going to happen... India can kill 10 of Pakistani soldiers on daily basis but Pakistani politicians would never let go their power.

Yes, i really thing spice 2000 missed the target, how? only explanation is incompetency.

FYI, Pakistani politicians earn respect and value, just because of army.
If we have no army, no world leader would give a hoot about Pakistani politicians.

Your point of view is very clear. Pakistan should have used more muscular approach. Should have caused damage to Indian force assets at every possible opportunity.
U see the opportunity is not lost. India keeps having these attacks every year or two. And now it’s very clear that the present govt. will give u such opportunities again and again by crossing borders again. Just wait for the next opportunity. Even if this Indian govt. changes, even then the pressure will be on next govt.s, in cases like Mumbai attacks etc., to give u more opportunities. I hope by then ur point of view will prevail.

My PoV is that Pakistan should not have sent 2 pilots across the line of control, with instructions not to shoot any one.
I'm being realistic here, it was far too risky... the odds of our pilots making safely back home was 1%.
Our Politicians are not taking wise decisions, they are acting selfish and clearly are not hesitant to send our soldiers to sure death.
India definitely provide such opportunities periodically, but only to regimes of it's own choice.
Would India choose to give such opportunity to Musharraf govt.? NEVER.
Currently, your present govt. doesn't have legal jurisdiction to decide on matters of war.
Soon mantle of war decision will be passed on to new govt. and we'll take on from their, but one thing is clear, in next opportunity, India will be more prepared and i don't expect Pakistan to rise atop in every opportunity.
What i do believe, with 1000 dead bodies on Indian side, it will be difficult for India to go further into the war or again go to the direction of strategic missile show.

 

[blain2]

Whenever in history, Indian army settled in war posture along Pak borders, our past generals have consider it as war maneuver.
Yes... India was not allowed to cross Pak border anywhere but they did tried at various places.

Rest you clearly understood, no one is objecting return of captive but it has more to do with Indian PM's deadline.

And what sort of PM would send his soldiers to ''skirmish'', without permission to shoot enemy.

Another question emerging is that... would Pakistan continue to play Indian game of skirmishes for another half century?
Do we still believe, India will let go Kashmir on table?

About the NSA prick, He is the one who has been selling cold war to to Indian politicians.
If i was ISI, i would have demanded unconditional repatriation of Brahamdagh Bugti's, nothing more nothing less.

Skirmishes work just fine. For anyone interested, read up Shuja Pasha's recent work on the Army and also the general work done on Pakistan's security and foreign policy. The goal of Pakistan's foreign policy is to pursue our national interests without getting into a war. A war is a ruin for any country. Bravado aside, we don't want a war and neither does India.

Yes, India will not present Kashmir on a platter and nobody expects that to be the case with or without a war. What you want to see is that discussions take place to resolve these issues. Lets also resolve that in any settlement, there cannot be one winner take it all. As such, both Pakistan and India will have to give and take, hardliners on both sides notwithstanding.

Also demands only go so far. Each side can make demands all day, but unless one side has overwhelming leverage, its not easy to get all of what you want. This is a realization that is in front of both sides.

My own reading of the situation is that general Indians certainly underestimate Pakistan and overestimate their own power, but Pakistanis too overestimate their own leverage against India. The reality, as is the case most of the time, is that the two countries do not have the power, wherewithal to dominate the other. This is why talks are the best way forward. Even if not making progress, talks keep the channels open.