Disproving some genocide claims

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Never:

Please try and make your point without resorting to personal attacks (3 year old). Realize that debate will often occur with people who may have diametrically opposing views to yours, and you cannot go around calling everyone who disagrees with you a "three year old".

 

[Venkat]

India did not undertake to destroy Pakistan as such.

It was a Pakistan given opportunity that they seized wherein the Eastern front was degraded to a lower threat level.

Technically, it is very favourable to India.

As fas as Bangladesh being grateful and all that, I have a different view on that. There is nothing like "being grateful" and things like that in geopolitics. Its merely self interest.

Most logical and realistic answer.

India got an opportunity, it took it, and succeeded.

Pakistan too got opportunities but they were not big enough or right enough to be 'converted' into another bangladesh.

 

[Venkat]

.. and really Indians shouldnt give a fig about 3 million being true or false. its a matter between pakistanis and bangladeshis and they can resolve it without our interference - right?

 

[Vinod2070]

Actually you are right.

This claim of the particular number is basically a Bangladeshi claim. It is up to them to defend it or otherwise.

India entered the war because the burden of the 10 million plus refugees was too great to bear.

 

[roadrunner]

Actually you are right.

This claim of the particular number is basically a Bangladeshi claim. It is up to them to defend it or otherwise.

India entered the war because the burden of the 10 million plus refugees was too great to bear.

total bullshyt

 

[Vinod2070]

total bullshyt

Care to explain!

Your one liners make sense only to yourself.

 

[solid snake]

Even the Nazis were not efficient enough to kill 3 million Jews in a short span of 9 months. It would take a monumental effort to ethnically cleanse that many people, it is ridiculous to suggest that Pakistan was able to kill that many people with it's meagre resources. We didn't even have any camps for them.

At most a few thousand Bengalis were killed by the army. And if you think that Bengalis themselves are angels, take a look at what they did to Bengalis loyal to Pakistan during the war, right after the war ended.

PVHas2bFN48[/media] - Stranded Pakistanis - NBC News Broadcast - December 21, 1971

December 21, 1971
NBC News Report:

"In Bangladesh, once East Pakistan, not a day has gone by without horrible reprisals against people who supported the Pakistani Government. There have been individual killings and there have been massacres. And here is a film of a rally in Dacca made last Friday at which men were incited to kill -- and did kill."

Here are pictures taken by two Associated Press men, of the death of one prisoner in Dacca. First he was tortured. Then he was bayoneted -- again he was bayoneted -- and finally he was killed -- and a child, a relative of one of the prisoners, was kicked and stamped to death."

 

[blain2]

I will try to post something about this 3 million lie based on a book written by a Bangladeshi author. To anyone with a bit of logic, the claim about 3 million would sound illogical and superfluous (as in PA did not need to kill this many to achieve its goals) after reading the excerpt.

Here is what I intended to post, may want to keep this for posterity sake. I also do not post this to offend Bangladeshis. In my opinion, even one Bangladeshi killed or raped is too much at the hands of their west Pakistani compatriots...however there is a need to insert some truth and reality into the much trumpeted claims of the 3 mill dead and 300K raped...I knew of officers who had served in EP and believe me, not one of them was as dishonorable as to go and rape EP women in some pogrom as this has been made out to be. Individuals did do things that were wrong (in terms of rape at least), and that is condemnable along with killings. However lets bring some reality into this discussion.

This is an excerpt from the book "The Myth of 3 Million" by Dr. M. Abdul Mumin Chowdhry. He writes:

On 10th Jan 1972, the very day of his return to Bangladesh from prison in West Pakistan, he, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman publicly announced, 'Three million people have been killed. I believe that there is no parallel in the history of the world of such colossal loss of lives for the struggle for freedom.'

Yet only on 8 Jan 1972 in London, on his way back to Bangladesh, the same Mujib had claimed that, "one million people had been killed in Bangladesh."

It was reported that on arrival in Dhaka on 10 Jan 1972 the lobby behind fabrication of the absolutely impossible figure promptly briefed the returning Bangladeshi leader with added "fact" of three hundred thousand women raped, who in turn immediately went on parroting it. Thus the self serving fiction of "three million killed and three hundred thousand women raped" was created.

As has already been mentioned, according to Col. Akbar Hussain's disclosure in the National Assembly of Bangladesh, the number of claimants (war victims) did not exceed three hundred thousand. But according to Abdul Muhaimin, the Ministry of finance, Government of Bangladesh, had informed him that, only 72,000 claims were received. Of them, relations of 50,000 victims had been awarded the declared sum of money. There had been many bogus claims, even some from Razakars, within those 72,000 applications."

Whatever be the actual figure, the "victims" whose relations were compensated might not be all victims of Pakistan Army. A large number of refugees, 1.6 million according to one Awami League journalist, died in Indian refugee camps. Those who claimed compensation also included families of many such dead refugees. Besides there were also many false claims.

Rape Victims. The Bangladesh government opened a number of "Centers for Bangladesh heroines" at Dhaka and other places..

...about a hundred of them were given in marriage at various centers. How many heroines were housed at such centres? How and when such centres were closed and what happened to the inmates (has) remained a closely guarded secret up to now...

In order to kill three million the Pakistan Army would have had to kill 11,494 persons a day, non-stop from Marh 26 onwards. If, on the other hand, they were to kill one million people, their daily killing would come to 3,831. Seen in another way, for 60,000 Pakistan Army to kill three million and rape three hundred thousand women, each and every one of them had to kill 50 persons and rape 5 women.

Jauhri, a Bangladeshi journalist, wrote: "It is beyond me how three million people could get killed in a guerrilla war of eight month and 21 days. The raping of two hundred thousand women is also beyond my comprehension."

 

[EagleEyes]

Actually you are right.

This claim of the particular number is basically a Bangladeshi claim. It is up to them to defend it or otherwise.

India entered the war because the burden of the 10 million plus refugees was too great to bear.

I thought that 1965 "***" handover was too great to bear?

 

[Venkat]

1965 what? sorry your post was masked by filters.

 

[Vinod2070]

I thought that 1965 "***" handover was too great to bear?

What about 1965? I thought that both the "Gibralter" and "Grandslam" operations were grand failures.

At best it was a stalemate.

Operation Grand Slam is virtually synonymous with the 1965 Indo-Pakistani War. It refers to an audacious plan drawn up by the Pakistani Army, in May 1965, to attack the vital Akhnoor Bridge in Jammu and Kashmir, which was not only the lifeline of an entire infantry division in Jammu and Kashmir but could also be used to threaten Jammu, an important logistical point for Indian forces. The operation ended in a failure for Pakistan Army as the stated military objectives were not achieved and subsequently were forced to retreat following a counter attack by the Indian Army.

 

[blain2]

Lets get back to the topic on hand please.

 

[salman nedian]

Salim, Venkat and Vinod,

When it is a matter between Pakistanis and Bangladeshis then why are you interfering when even Bangladeshis start admitting that the figure is false India try to convince them. Yes Pakistan is not big enough to be converted into another Bangladesh but surely India is.

Yes, India is an opportunist and with their expansionist desires they can do any thing because they are simply opportunists and nothing to do with ethics and humanity.

 

[Always Neutral]

Its hard to believe 3 million were killed. It would take gas chambers, mass graves and be impossible in todays world to hide.

I think its more a myth propogated by the Awami League as it suited their purpose with a lot of help with the Indian propoganda machine as it suited their purpose to.

Anyway Bangladesh was a cause waiting to happen for many reasons and it benefitted everybody.

Time to move on.

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

While on Bangladesh I read this below gem on our UK Army Forum.

Regards

At Jamalpur, near Dhaka, the Indian Brigadier, Hardit Singh Kler, surrounded a Pakistani unit led by Lt Col Ahmed Sultan. On 10 December the two officers exchanged letters. The first, written by the Indian Brigadier, was taken across the frontline by an elderly man who delivered it by hand

"To,
The Commander Jamalpur Garrison

I am directed to inform you that your garrison has been cut off from all sides and you have no escape route available to you. One brigade with full compliment of artillery has already been built up and another will be striking by morning. In addition you have been given a foretaste of a small element of our air force with a lot more to come. The siituation as far as you are concerned is hopeless. your higher commanders have already ditched you.
I expect your reply before 6.30 p.m. today failing which I will be constrained to deliver the final blow for which purpose 40 sorties of MIGs have been alloted to me.
In this morning's action the prisoners captured by us have given your strength and dispositions, and are well looked after.
The treatment I expect to be given to the civil messenger should be according to a gentlemanly code of honour and no harm should come to him.
An immediate reply is solicited.

Brigadier HS Kler. Comd."

The reply was sent a few hours later:

"Dear Brig,
Hope this finds you in high spirits. Your letter asking us to surrender has been received. I want to tell you that the fighting you have seen so far is very little, in fact the fighting has not even started. So let us stop negotiating and start the fight.
40 sorties, I may point out, are inadequate. Ask for many more. Your point about treating your messenger well was superfluous. It shows how you under-estimate my boys. I hope he liked his tea.
Give my love to the Muktis [Mukti Bahini were the Bangladeshi guerrillas fighting against the Pakistan Army]. Let me see you with a sten in your hand next time instead of the pen you seem to have such mastery over.
Now get on and fight.

Yours sincerely

Commander Jamalppur Fortress.
(Lt. Colonel Ahmed Sultan)"