Discussion Pakistan navy, s frigate options 2016

[JK!]

What happened to the idea of inducting additional F22P frigates? I thought there was an option for 4 more?

 

[Penguin]

For clarity, it is important to understand that modern terms such as “frigate” and “corvette” mean little to today’s navies and shipbuilders. For example, in June, Qatar ordered four 3,000-ton ‘corvettes’ from the Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri. These ‘corvettes’ are not only close in displacement to Pakistan’s F-22P Zulfiqar-class “frigates”, but with the MBDA Aster-30 long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, they are superior air defence assets. Interestingly, the four corvettes that the Pakistan Navy is in talks for from the Turkish shipbuilder Savunma Teknolojileri Mühendislik ve Ticaret A.Ş. (STM) – i.e. the MILGEM – are identical in capability to the F-22P, though lighter in displacement.

Relative to 5000-7000 ton frigates, which is pretty much today's standard, one can appropriately call a 3,000 ton ship a corvette. The classification is mainly related to role and capability, not displacement per se (although larger ships can obviously house more equipment and may have greater range/endurance/seakeeping.
https://defence.pk/threads/what-is-the-difference-between-frigate-and-destroyer.33514/#post-474928
https://defence.pk/threads/what-is-the-difference-between-frigate-and-destroyer.33514/#post-497352

In this article, ships with displacements of 2,000-tons or more will be described as “frigates”, and warships weighing 300-tons or more will be described as “corvettes.” This is largely arbitrary, but differentiation is being sought to demarcate between assets suitable for wartime SLOC protection and others (e.g. littoral anti-access and area-denial assets). Ultimately, it is a less of a question of a platform being classified “X” or “Y” and more of an issue of its actual capabilities.

There are scarcely any corvettes under 700 tons. Singapore's Victory class, Bahrein's Al Manama-class and UAE's Murray Jip-class (both all essentially Lurssen designs), Malaysia's Laksamana class and Ecuador's Esmeralda class (both essentially Fincantieri designs), and Sweden's Visby class. These are all over 600 tons and distinguish themselves in armament (including SAMs and ASW capability) and/or helicopter carrying capability. Anything smaller is simply an FPB or a FAC, with primary emphasis on AShMs and gun based self defence (i.e. of an less all-rounder).

For example, Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) sold two 114.3 metre 2,600-ton frigates to the Philippines Navy for $311 million U.S. Granted, this probably does not include the cost of onboard sensors, electronics and weapons, but with hulls (and propulsion?) costing $155.5 million U.S., there is considerable vertical room for configuration. A fully-outfitted HHI design with Western European or American subsystems should fit in the $300-350 million U.S. range.

I don't know why one would assume that USD 311 million is for ships exclusive the cost of sensors, electronics and weapons, since the cost of an Incheon (FFX1) is USD 232 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incheon-class_frigate

I believe the DW3000F for Thailand came down to USD 240 million per ship. While the Republic of Korea was willing to produce and sell a DW-10000D Guided Missile Destroyer (Burke derivative) for the price of USD $950 million.
https://m.reddit.com/r/worldroleplay/comments/4hs1mi/news_boats_and_hoes/?ref=readnext
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/south-korea’s-dsme-unveils-new-frigate-proposal-for-thai-navy/

Daewoo DW 3000H Frigate
Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME) announced 31 December 2013 that the company had won $305.8 million order to construct a frigate for the Korean Navy. The deal with the Defense Acquisition Program Administration entails producing and delivering the warship to the South Korean Navy by 2017, the shipbuilder said. Under the deal, the shipyard will build an Incheon Class frigate equipped with anti-air defence and helicopter landing capabilities. In their design made a few changes - the hulls were increased to 122 meters (Batch I - 117 meters), draft standard will oscillate at the level of 3700 tonnes (Batch I - 2,300 tonnes). Changes will also include equipment and its placement on the board. The vessel was to have an overall length of 114m, width of 14m and a depth of 25m. The standard displacement of the ship is 2,300t. It can accommodate a crew of 145 to 170. About eight ships of Batch II are to be built by DSME until 2017.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...tm+&cd=9&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl&client=firefox-b
This is the larger Incheon batch II > USD 306 million

 

[monitor]

What happened to the idea of inducting additional F22P frigates? I thought there was an option for 4 more?

I think PN don't liking the ideas of having anymore F-22p which lack adequate air defense. Probably the are looking improved variant of F-22p if miger budget hamper more modern frigate.

 

[Penguin]

For a corvette, I would opt for a version of Abu Dhabi's 70m, 915 ton Baynunah class, or model an enlarged version of 63m 560 ton Azmat after it.

Propulsion:

• 4x 12V595 TE90 MTU diesel engines, rated at 4.2MW each.
• water jet propulsers.

Performance:

• maximum speed 32+kt
• cruise speed 15kt.
• range at least 2,400nm.
• The corvette carries water, stores and fuel for an endurance of 14 days.

Combat management systems:

• Selex Sistemi Integrati (formerly Alenia Marconi Systems) IPN-S command and control system
• Selex Sistemi Integrati (formerly Alenia Marconi Systems) NA-25XM fire control system for the main gun.
• Selex is responsible for integration of weapons and sensors into the combat system.

Sensors and processing systems:

• Saab Microwave Systems Sea Giraffe AMB 3D surveillance radar
• Terma I-band navigation radar
• Selex Orion RTN 25 Fire Control X-band radar
• Sagem Vigy EOMS infrared search and track and weapons director.
  
• L-3 ELAC Nautik NDS 3070 Vanguard hull-mounted mine and obstacle avoidance sonar

Armament:

• 1 × OTO Melara 76 mm/62 caliber Super Rapid naval gun (120 rpm)
  
• 2 × Rheinmetall MLG 27 27 mm guns
• 8 × MBDA MM40 block 3 Exocet missiles
• 1 × mk49 mod3 21-cell RAM launcher for RAM block 1A missile system
• 2 x Raytheon Mk48/MK56 twin-cell vertical launchers for the twinpacked ESSM (= 8 missiles).

Naval countermeasure systems

• Electronic warfare suite:
  • Saab Avitronics of South Africa NLWS310 laser warning system from,
  • Elettronica SLR-736E radar electronic support measures system (ESM)
  • Thales Altesse communications ESM.
• 2x Rheinmetall Waffe Munition (formerly Buck Neue Technologien) MASS decoy system, one each port and starboard (each MASS can launch up to 32 Omni-Trap spin-stabilised omni-spectral projectiles in a time-staggered configuration against anti-ship missiles and guided projectiles. The MASS decoy covers radar, infrared, electro-optic, laser and ultraviolet wavebands).

Secure voice and data communications with the fleet, land based command and control centres and with maritime patrol aircraft, including:

• Link 11 and
• Link Y mk2

Aviation facilities:

• Aft fully equipped helicopter hangar and single landing spot stern deck for a medium-sized helicopter such as the the Eurocopter AS 565 Panther or equivalent.

I'm sure, to the extent European or US systems are not an option, many Chinese or other country's weapons, sensors and other system could be substituted. In any case, it could serve as example for an enlarged Azmat class ship.

 

[Sloth 22]

@Penguin
61 Kommunards and State Design Bureau of Ukraine advertise quite a few products on their websites.

Is the Ukrainian Ship Building Industry presently capable to deliver those vessels , without any kind of Russian or Western Support ?

 

[Penguin]

I think PN don't liking the ideas of having anymore F-22p which lack adequate air defense. Probably the are looking improved variant of F-22p if miger budget hamper more modern frigate.

That particular problem is easily solve by adopting an off-the-shelf duo- or quadpackable SAM and VLS

50+km ESSM:
Mk41: several quadpacked Single Cell Launchers (2-6 SCLs > 8-24 missiles) or 1x 8-cell (32 missiles)
Mk48/Mk56: several twinpacked Twin Cell launchers (4-12 cells > 8-24 missiles)

25+km (tested up to 60km!) CAMM:
Mk41: several quadpacked Single Cell Launchers (2-6 SCLs > 8-24 missiles) or 1x 8-cell (32 missiles)

Sylver Mk 43:
one or two 8-cell unit w. single Aster 15 (30+km), single Mica VL (20km), or at least 4 cells with quad VT1 (15km). Mica VL and VT1 also from smaller Sylver A35 (8-32 rounds for 8-cell unit)

21-cell RAM launcher with RAM blok II (22.5km)

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin
61 Kommunards and State Design Bureau of Ukraine advertise quite a few products on their websites.

Is the Ukrainian Ship Building Industry presently capable to deliver those vessels , without any kind of Russian or Western Support ?

"GYURZA" = currently being produced and delivered to UA navy

"MISTRAL-1500T" = Gepard 3.9 mod
Multi purpose corvette "MIRAGE" =interesting
Both these:

• will Western equipment be available?
• medium/long continuity risk re. shipyard

I'm not seeing larger surface units being built for UA navy, which lead me to question their ability for larger ships just now.

This was advertised / said to be building. I don't see/ hear about it now. That is not a good sign.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?105224-Gayduck-Ukraine-corvette-Prject-58250

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

"GYURZA" = currently being produced and delivered to UA navy

"MISTRAL-1500T" = Gepard 3.9 mod
Multi purpose corvette "MIRAGE" =interesting
Both these:

• will Western equipment be available?
• medium/long continuity risk re. shipyard

I'm not seeing larger surface units being built for UA navy, which lead me to question their ability for larger ships just now.

This was advertised / said to be building. I don't see/ hear about it now. That is not a good sign.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?105224-Gayduck-Ukraine-corvette-Prject-58250

Ukroboronprom has the corvette listed on its official product catalogue (page 70 on your PDF reader).

Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Production did talk to Ukroboronprom and Ukrainian MoD on the prospect of 'joint ship production.' I wonder if Ukraine can sell the design and let the eventual end-user build the hulls domestically.

http://ukroboronprom.com.ua/design/files/Catalogue_2016_2017_compressed.pdf

 

[Penguin]

Ukroboronprom has the corvette listed on its official product catalogue (page 70 on your PDF reader).

Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Production did talk to Ukroboronprom and Ukrainian MoD on the prospect of 'joint ship production.' I wonder if Ukraine can sell the design and let the eventual end-user build the hulls domestically.

http://ukroboronprom.com.ua/design/files/Catalogue_2016_2017_compressed.pdf

How/why would this be better than F22P, or a development thereof (C28A)?

The image of Gayduck-M p. 132 in said catalogue is much like MISTRAL-1500T"
Gayduck > See project 58250. p 138

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

How/why would this be better than F22P, or a development thereof (C28A)?

The image of Gayduck-M p. 132 in said catalogue is much like MISTRAL-1500T"
Gayduck > See project 58250. p 138

It wouldn't be if the F-22P/C28A design were to incorporate enough for 32 VLS MR-SAM.

Interestingly, a few of the ships that many consider to line up with the PN's needs are hovering on comparable specifications, e.g. 110 m length, 2,500-3,000-ton displacement, 2x4 AShM, 2x3 ASW torpedo launchers, VLS for MR-SAM, 1x main gun, PDMS/CIWS, and helicopter deck + hangar.

 

[Penguin]

It wouldn't be if the F-22P/C28A design were to incorporate enough for 32 VLS MR-SAM..

58250 only mentions 'sam system middle range', which can mean anything. And what is listed in the catalogue as Gayduck-M (what I think is the same as Mirage 1500 T) has just 8 VL Mica. However, On the 61 Kommunards website Mirage 1500 T has 32 VL Barak-1 (that's rather a large difference).
http://www.shipyard61.com.ua/start-eng.html
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1574
http://forums.airbase.ru/2013/10/t69336_35--proekt-58250-poslednij-shans-ukrainskikh-korabelov.html
http://forums.airbase.ru/2014/04/t69336_38--proekt-58250-poslednij-shans-ukrainskikh-korabelov.html

IMHO 58280 design is more similar to Russian project 20380. They started building one and some sections were completed but I don't think they are still building.
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projekt_58250

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/project-58250-pics.htm

Displacement 2500 tons.
Length 112 m
Width 13 m
Machinery

• Diesel gazoturbìnna energosilova installation: turbine part--"Zorya-mashproekt (Nikolaev);

• diesel parts-Caterpillar (United States).

• Chillers-plant "Equator" (Nikolaev).

Maximum speed 32 knots
Range 4,000 miles
Autonomy 30 days
ARMAMENT

• Aster 15 SAM complexes - MBDA (France) to replace the OR "Dnipro".

• 8 x PKRK Exocet MM40 Block 3--MBDA (France).

• 1 x 76/62 mm Super Rapid-AU-OTO Melara (Italy).

• 2 x 35 mm Oerlikon Millennium-AU/Rheinmetall (Switzerland/Germany).

• 2 x RFP "Hephaestus" 12.7 mm Remote-controlled machine gun installation-HKBM. Morozov (Kharkov).

• 2 or 3 V515 MU90 torpedoes (Germany) and A244 (Italy)--Eurotorp.

• 2 x Active Protection System «MASS»

Electronics

• BIUS (Acs BOO)--DCNS (France).

• RADAR detection (with fixed HEADLIGHTS)-tion "Quant" (Kyiv).

• Other RADAR and OÈS (including "strìlkovì")-tion "Quantum" and "Quant-Radiolocation.

• Nasal KEROSENE-Tion "Gidropribor" (Kyiv).

• Buksiruûca CEO--Thales Underwater Systems (France).

• Complex means of communication--"telecard-pribor" (Odessa).

• Integrated IC technical means ship--"fiolent (Simferopol).

• Ship multifunctional complex radar target designation PKR "Morena";

• Optical-radar "Protazan-K" - a system of medium-caliber artillery fire;

• Multi-radar "Phoenix-In";

• Optoelectronic station Omnidirection "Selena" - to manage and control the location of the ship;

• "AF-VZOI VZOR "- a system of mutual exchange of information and mutual orientation of the Task Force;

• "Positive-1U" general radar detection of air and surface targets;

• ORLS "Spear-K" - for the management of small caliber artillery;

• Optoelectronic station take off and landing "Saiga";

• Complex signal monitoring "Button";

• Hydroacoustic complex "Summer Lightning";

• The control system of remote-controlled underwater vehicles - "KNPA-58250."

Aviation Ka-27 — from existing NAVY (possible basing NH90).
Crew 110 people
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/project-58250-specs.htm

On the project http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/project-58250.htm

There is no visible sign of frigate building activity in either of the Nikolayev based shipyards, via Google Earth. So, progress - if any - is real slow, with contruction of building blokc taking place in doors still.

 

[Penguin]

http://forums.airbase.ru/2013/09/t69336_31--proekt-58250-poslednij-shans-ukrainskikh-korabelov.html

Interestingly, a few of the ships that many consider to line up with the PN's needs are hovering on comparable specifications, e.g. 110 m length, 2,500-3,000-ton displacement, 2x4 AShM, 2x3 ASW torpedo launchers, VLS for MR-SAM, 1x main gun, PDMS/CIWS, and helicopter deck + hangar.

It pretty much your minimal package for an all-round ship.

 

[war&peace]

PNS should go for a few (4-5) heavies like type 055 ... with a total of 128 cell VLS per ship and plethora of AShMs and ASuMs, it will have a huge psychological effect on the enemies and boost the power and moral of PNS.

 

[Penguin]

I am all in favour of doubling our defence budget, specially for the navy.

With regards to Zimbabwe, they are described as China's all weather friend...go figure !

 

[Ayeshah]

am confused, was that aimed at me? living in Africa I slightly know the geography!

please feel free to google Zimbabwe china all weather friend!