Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

[El Sidd]

If the Indus people weren't so feckless they would have carved out their land without needing a foreign ideological anchor

The ideology that there is one indus nation is as foreign as some Arab religion you despise as menace to society.

Ironically you have a migrant background.

PPP and MQM are secular parties

Chestnuts

 

[chinasun]

Can a religious country become a developed and powerful country? Indonesians, Turks, Iranians will tell you the answer. It's a pity that many of those people who tried their best to immigrate to Western countries call themselves Muslims every day and only believe in Western media. How hypocritical this world is!

 

[Sayfullah]

It affects, but to a certain level. However, once you are in active contact with an enemy, you fight more for yourself and your buddies around instead of the whole country. Active combat is more of a survival thing afterall.

True. But with all the combat and seeing your friends dying around you in the war, sometimes some soldiers need something to motivate them to keep going. There’s a reason why western armies have such high ptsd and suicide rates. There always needs to be some underlying motivating ideology, something that’s worth giving up all those sacrifices for and fighting till the last drop of blood. Even the most secular armies have underlying ideologies like USA tells its army it’s fighting to be defenders of democracy. So when the time comes when all your buddies have sacrificed their lives already and you’re left, that ideology pushes you to seek vengeance for your buddies and meet them in the next life. Like even the trench warfare in Ukraine right now, those are horrible conditions for average soldiers because of the poorly constructed trenches. I’m pretty sure there comes a day when the average soldier might think “why am I fighting this war” or “why am I here and not with my kids and wife”. That’s when the ideology comes in play.
Also this is just in my view. Of course it’s nothing compared to your since your actually in the army and fighting and experiencing everything, so your option would always be more correct and more based on reality.

 

[El Sidd]

Vote Yes 22​

Vote No 55

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Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular country?​

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• Yes​

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[Sayfullah]

There is always some hesitation in any opening round, especially since it had been a long time since PAF had fired in anger in a real A to A engagement.

This is from the other thread but strong Emaan would negate hesitation in such events. When you know your fighting for a country built on the name of Islam against a hindutva fascist regime, you already know it’s Jihad and your Emaan strengthens, so when such events happen you respond with full might and then put your trust in Allah following the guidance of Quran and Hadith. A strong ideology from a country strengthens the Emaan of the whole military which removes hesitation when the time to fight comes.

It affects, but to a certain level. However, once you are in active contact with an enemy, you fight more for yourself and your buddies around instead of the whole country. Active combat is more of a survival thing afterall.

 

[mulj]

this is false dichotomy, it probably falls because lack integrity, education and long term commitment to the certain given goals, economy is not complicated thing, one goal at the time fulfilled and then it eventually blossom into branches of activitiy.

 

[lightning F57]

so at what level does corruption turn nations into Pakistan?
Corruption in the US, Korea, China, etc are in the billions of dollars. Are you saying there are more than billion dollar corruption going on in Pakistan?

Its not about how much money is flowing through the country, its how strong its institutions are to deal with corruption. US, China, Korea are much stronger. Rule of law doesn't apply to the elite in Pak, they let so many corrupt politicians back you really think someone with murder cases on their head would be able to take any meaningful seat in the US?

The US has impeached presidents, its media is not hampered by its military or other state institutions so they can go after corruption and bring it into the public eye. In China its a one party system they "got rid off" hundreds of corrupt politician to bring about change in their own country.

 

[CrimeMinister]

Maybe or maybe not. Reason behind Pakistans failure is establishment and courts. All institutes are corrupt to core.

 

[Rusty2]

China implemented the 1 child policy when they were living at over 500 million. Overpopulation is no the result of our mindset, but our agricultural policies.

It was our excessive food production that caused overpopulation. Look at Balochistan for example. Larger than Bangladesh but only ten million people.

If we had left our landscapes alone and not produced so many farms, we would have had a stable population:

overpopulation is a symptom not disease.
Having a large population is actually a very good thing if you use it right. Just look at China.

Its not about how much money is flowing through the country, its how strong its institutions are to deal with corruption. US, China, Korea are much stronger. Rule of law doesn't apply to the elite in Pak, they let so many corrupt politicians back you really think someone with murder cases on their head would be able to take any meaningful seat in the US?

The US has impeached presidents, its media is not hampered by its military or other state institutions so they can go after corruption and bring it into the public eye. In China its a one party system they "got rid off" hundreds of corrupt politician to bring about change in their own country.

China is the second largest economy in the world and corruption is baked into their system. To do ANY kind of business there you need bribe the CCP members and they have no strong institutions to prevent it.
So again, corruption is a symptom not the cause. You can gave massive corruption and still be the world's second largest economy. China is proof of this.

 

[Meengla]

I'd also like to highlight religious extremism is a problem in Pakistan and @Rusty2 is not wrong about that, but I disagree the reason behind it is due to Pakistan being an Islamic Republic. And the solution to this is not secularism either but rather state regulation and control.

The reasons behind the extremism can be linked more due to the events which took place in Afghanistan which radicalised large parts of our population, both during the Soviets and after 9-11.

Pakistan has always had a moderate Islamic approach historically, and the extremism you can place on the tribal belt is due to tribal culture more than Islam itself. Hence it doesn't spread that far out.

I think this sums it up for me!
It is the curse of the tribal 'Islam' which has caused untold number of miseries to Pakistan; a large part of eastern Afghanistan contributes to that curse, which is affecting Pakistan. Yes, there were 'secular' terrorists too like MQM in the 1990s but they were not the ideological kind to blow themselves up over decades. They were quashed and now they are becoming a mere footnote in Pakistan's history. Good!
Start tracing what went wrong with Pakistan and you will inevitably find the root cause to be Pakistan's VOLUNTARY involvement in the American war against the Soviets starting in the 1980s. A hornets' the size of tens of thousands of square miles was stirred then. The 'governance' in Pakistan was bad before the 1980s --as it was bad in India too. But Pakistan has been suffering the blowback from Pakistan's involvement in the 'Jihad' against the Soviets since the 1980s.

 

[chinasun]

overpopulation is a symptom not disease.
Having a large population is actually a very good thing if you use it right. Just look at China.


China is the second largest economy in the world and corruption is baked into their system. To do ANY kind of business there you need bribe the CCP members and they have no strong institutions to prevent it.
So again, corruption is a symptom not the cause. You can gave massive corruption and still be the world's second largest economy. China is proof of this.

Corruption exists in any country! America is corrupt and political lobbying is legal in America. China is also very corrupt, with 90% of officials corrupt to varying degrees. However, China has been little affected by corruption at the legislative level. China has been reforming the system to increase transparency and strengthen supervision! Efforts should be made to reduce the negative impact of corruption on economic development. For corruption in China, you can refer to the following articles:
Answer to How much corruption is there in PR China? How does it differ on the different levels of the administration, and what is its history? by Janus Dongye Qimeng https://www.quora.com/How-much-corr...share=effb5af3&srid=ul2ehS&target_type=answer

 

[Rusty2]

Corruption exists in any country! America is corrupt and political lobbying is legal in America. China is also very corrupt, with 90% of officials corrupt to varying degrees. However, China has been little affected by corruption at the legislative level. China has been reforming the system to increase transparency and strengthen supervision! Efforts should be made to reduce the negative impact of corruption on economic development. For corruption in China, you can refer to the following articles:
Answer to How much corruption is there in PR China? How does it differ on the different levels of the administration, and what is its history? by Janus Dongye Qimeng https://www.quora.com/How-much-corr...share=effb5af3&srid=ul2ehS&target_type=answer

If you read my previous comments, I said every country is corrupt including the US. No need to get your CCP panties in a bunch. I just used China as a positive example of how corruption does not have to stop development.

 

[niao78]

I don't think Pakistan Economy is falling.
They have CPEC and Soon they will grow faster than India

 

[chinasun]

If you read my previous comments, I said every country is corrupt including the US. No need to get your CCP panties in a bunch. I just used China as a positive example of how corruption does not have to stop development.

Unchecked corruption will hinder economic development. And make the country eventually split.

 

[TheSolution]

I think this sums it up for me!
It is the curse of the tribal 'Islam' which has caused untold number of miseries to Pakistan; a large part of eastern Afghanistan contributes to that curse, which is affecting Pakistan. Yes, there were 'secular' terrorists too like MQM in the 1990s but they were not the ideological kind to blow themselves up over decades. They were quashed and now they are becoming a mere footnote in Pakistan's history. Good!
Start tracing what went wrong with Pakistan and you will inevitably find the root cause to be Pakistan's VOLUNTARY involvement in the American war against the Soviets starting in the 1980s. A hornets' the size of tens of thousands of square miles was stirred then. The 'governance' in Pakistan was bad before the 1980s --as it was bad in India too. But Pakistan has been suffering the blowback from Pakistan's involvement in the 'Jihad' against the Soviets since the 1980s.

True but I would argue it was a necessary evil at the time considering the risk both Afghanistan posed and the Soviets next door.

But it has been horribly managed after, no effort from the state to control extremism, they tackle against terrorism directly but that's not enough if you can't address the root cause where people are becoming radicalised.