Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

[Super Falcon]

Neither we are Islamic nor secular we are alien we don't do things by books we don't put taxes where we get from big companies rich people get tax waivers and poor people have to take their burden with oil food prices increasing

 

[lightning F57]

Secularism has nothing to do with Pakistans economy. What's failing Pakistan is wantom corruption fix that and the country will prosper.

 

[Rusty2]

Secularism has nothing to do with Pakistans economy. What's failing Pakistan is wantom corruption fix that and the country will prosper.

Every country on earth has corruption. Why is every country on Earth not like Pakistan?

 

[SQ8]

Every country on earth has corruption. Why is every country on Earth not like Pakistan?

True - Indonesia while being an Islamic country was notorious for corruption at one point to the extent even cheques were accepted for payoffs.

However, key to the failure of Pakistan is the lack of impact by corruption/nepotism and otherwise due to a constant in flow of loans and aid which shielded the population from total collapse otherwise along with normalization of corruption as a way of life. In every aspect, Pakistanis embrace corruption not just in monetary form, but in their religious and cultural values as well.

 

[Erieye]

Suddenly switching to a secular system is not going to magically remove extremism from society, extremism is rooted in the ideologies people subscribe to and the madressas that propagate extreme narratives.

Unless you adress those two at a societal level - changing to a secular outlook won't suddenly change your society suddenly.

In fact I would argue that sudden change while having a religiously extreme society would force them to declare the state as anti-Islamic and would make a perfect excuse for jihad, just like the Afghans did to their own country!

The solution is mass education of high quality! Erect schools everywhere across the country, make sure children attend, and make sure the teaching is of a sufficient quality.

Pakistan's "Islam" has very little influence in hard politics, the role is more for vanity, but yes people do tend to weaponise it but the solution is education to prevent that.

don't play with fire, especially not when you're on the brink of economic collapse

 

[Indos]

True - Indonesia while being an Islamic country was notorious for corruption at one point to the extent even cheques were accepted for payoffs.

However, key to the failure of Pakistan is the lack of impact by corruption/nepotism and otherwise due to a constant in flow of loans and aid which shielded the population from total collapse otherwise along with normalization of corruption as a way of life. In every aspect, Pakistanis embrace corruption not just in monetary form, but in their religious and cultural values as well.

Indonesia is corrupt during Soeharto era, currently it is much much better. Our Anti Corruption Body made after reformation period ( democracy ) is the most successful in the world. The hard core team inside it that makes the body is successful is regarded as having conservative Islamic mind set and they are called as Taliban because of it.

Indonesia Islamic conservatism is a recent phenomenon, people see it happen only after the year 2000 which is also inline with its economic growth. We embrace democracy in 1998

The raise of Islamic conservatism is likely related to democracy as well. As majority group in the country, their position is getting stronger after democracy is accepted.

 

[Indos]

True - Indonesia while being an Islamic country was notorious for corruption at one point to the extent even cheques were accepted for payoffs.

However, key to the failure of Pakistan is the lack of impact by corruption/nepotism and otherwise due to a constant in flow of loans and aid which shielded the population from total collapse otherwise along with normalization of corruption as a way of life. In every aspect, Pakistanis embrace corruption not just in monetary form, but in their religious and cultural values as well.

Talking about Soeharto period, their successful economy growth compared to Pakistan is because Soeharto period has focus on economic growth. When he raise to power, what he did also make the region peaceful and this is why ASEAN is created with the first ASEAN meeting held in Jakarta and Jakarta is ASEAN Headquarter.

He is not like Soekarno who spend much money on military and made war with British/Australia/Malaysia/Singapore/New Zealan during Ganyang Malaysia campaign.

Despite Soeharto did invade East Timor in 1977, he never did that again into other neighbor. During that time he did that as Indonesia is part of Western coalition against Communism and East Timor during 1977 is regarded as almost captured by their left wing power. So saying only Pakistan that become the ally of Western power during Cold War is not true, Indonesia even invaded a country because of its anti communist agenda. Indonesia cut diplomatic relation with all communist power during Soeharto period, only in 1990 (the fall of Berlin wall) we have diplomatic relation with China again, and then Vietnam.

This corrupt regime makes the economic growth is not sustainable, SOE is also corrupt during that time, then we see Indonesia collapse due to not able to withstand from Asian Financial Crisis. After this period we made several reform that include its anti corruption agenda. The fight against corruption is not getting instant result, but it is a gradual process, and I believe the fight against corruption is also helped by the raise of our society increase religiosity as Islam is against any injustice, bribing, corruption, etc

COLD WAR: Operation Lotus | Indonesian Invasion Of Timor-Leste 1975-1999 | Historical Map​

The Next level animated historical map | On 1974 Western fears that victory for the left-wing Fretilin in Portuguese Timor would lead to the creation of a communist state on Indonesia's border that could be used as a base for incursions by unfriendly powers into Indonesia, and a potential threat to Western submarines, One years later Indonesia's President Soeharto declared invasion to East Timor under support of US and Australia.

 

[Hamza913]

Lol being irreligious won't inhibit shitty mentalities in the ruling class

 

[ThunderCat]

Jinnah also ate pork. Just saying.

And drank occasionally from what I know.

Also religion does play a role in American politics despite their laws being mostly secular.

Every country on earth has corruption. Why is every country on Earth not like Pakistan?

But very few are overpopulated like Pakistan due it's unique climatic conditions.

 

[Olympus81]

All this ideological discussions are good but the solution to the problem lies elsewhere.

I believe Pakistan, ideologically is on the correct path somewhat. A moderate Islamic republic with its constitution leaning towards secularism.

The solution to Pakistan’s problem are:

1. Finding the right equilibrium between establishment and the other organs of state

2. Dispensing justice and accountability

3. Leadership that represents the public

4. Focus on human development

5. Unified narrative against extremist elements (TTP, Taliban, TLP, etc)

 

[HAIDER]

 

[PradoTLC]

So what good are such "robust" principles that have never been successfully applied? Clearly, they seem to be beyond mere mortals to ever achieve 100%, if so.

it is an issue with people not Islam.

need to grow up and take responsibility for your own failures rather than blame the earth , moon and sky

 

[TheSolution]

@Menace2Society @epebble @Rusty2 @Sayfullah

Ngl, even though I argued against secularism due to many reasons, the only reason I would support it is so Pakistanis stop sucking up to foreign Muslim countries just because they're Muslim, even when that country is shitting on your country with terrorism, etc, they're like mental slave cucks I swear...

 

[Sayfullah]

I feel like @PanzerKiel would have the most valuable opinion regarding this topic. He, like many, fight as a soldier and die for the country. His opinion is very valuable as he would be directly fighting for the state’s ideology and to defend the ideology even if it means giving up his life for it.
@PanzerKiel as a soldier, what is your opinion on fighting and dying for a secular state as opposed to an Islamic state? What is your opinion on fighting and dying fighting separatists or rebels as part of the armed forces of a hypothetical secular state? What is your opinion on the effects on the morale of soldiers (i.e would soldiers consider it Jihad or not? Would the desire to be Shaheed and go Jannah still be the same?) ? Do you think the recruiting process would be hurt (i.e people not willing to join army)? And finally, what do you think the new motto of the army would be if Pakistan becomes a secular state?

 

[Kambojaric]

Economic progress requires stability and the ability to plan in the long term. Instability on the other hand dissuades consumer confidence which inevitably impacts retailers, traders and manufacturers willingness to invest in an economy.

Now one could make the argument that religious sectarianism is partially to be blamed for Pakistan's historic instability. Certainly over the past two decades. However that does not explain the previous decades of economic malaise. Factors like political instability, corruption, bad governance are much bigger culprits imo.