Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

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[Indos]

I feel like @PanzerKiel would have the most valuable opinion regarding this topic. He, like many, fight as a soldier and die for the country. His opinion is very valuable as he would be directly fighting for the state’s ideology and to defend the ideology even if it means giving up his life for it.
@PanzerKiel as a soldier, what is your opinion on fighting and dying for a secular state as opposed to an Islamic state? What is your opinion on fighting and dying fighting separatists or rebels as part of the armed forces of a hypothetical secular state? What is your opinion on the effects on the morale of soldiers (i.e would soldiers consider it Jihad or not? Would the desire to be Shaheed and go Jannah still be the same?) ? Do you think the recruiting process would be hurt (i.e people not willing to join army)? And finally, what do you think the new motto of the army would be if Pakistan becomes a secular state?

What Islamic state ? That is just creation during modern era. Prophet Muhammad never called Madinah as Islamic State.

Madinah is similar like current modern nation where Muslim, Christian, Jews can live side by side under Madinah as nation. Muslim pay Zakat, and Non Muslim pay Jizyah

Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nation state is Sunnatullah

 

[Sayfullah]

What Islamic state ? That is just creation during modern era. Prophet Muhammad never called Madinah as Islamic State.

Madinah is similar like current modern nation where Muslim, Christian, Jews can live side by side under Madinah as nation. Muslim pay Zakat, and Non Muslim pay Jizyah

Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nation state is Sunnatullah

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You know what I mean by Islamic state.
A country which has Islamic laws and Islam as the state religion.
Pakistan calls it self “Islamic Republic”.
I said state because countries are often referred to as states. Replace state with republic and the question remains the same.

Nation state is Sunnatullah

A nation can be secular or be religious.
Vatican is a state with religion as their ideology.
UK is a state with secularism as their ideology .
Saudi Arabia is a state with religion as their ideology.
Now is it not allowed for me to call Saudi and “Islamic state” or UK as a “secular state” or Vatican as a “Christian state”.
You’re over thinking my simple question. Replace the word state with republic and that’s what Pakistan calls it self already. Replace the Islamic with secular and that’s what some people want it to be. The question I asked still remains the same however you want to understand it.

 

[Indos]

You know what I mean by Islamic state.
A country which has Islamic laws and Islam as the state religion.
Pakistan calls it self “Islamic Republic”.
I said state because countries are often referred to as states. Replace state with republic and the question remains the same.

Islamic Law that is difficult to insert is just related to criminal law like killing, Zinah, Stealing. The different is only on punishment level.

Criminal Law under Democratic system can be changed easily, just like we have seen in current Indonesian political landscape where not only prostitution that is criminalized, but also all kind of Zinah.

 

[Sayfullah]

Islamic Law that is difficult to insert is just related to criminal law like killing, Zinah, Stealing. The different is only on punishment level.

Criminal Law under Democratic system can be changed easily, just like we have seen in current Indonesian political landscape where not only prostitution that is criminalized, but also all kind of Zinah.

Ok. What should we call a Pakistan which claims it state religion to be Islam and a Pakistan which claims a state religion to be secular? What is the difference between both? Keeping the differences in mind, what is answers to my question I asked in my previous post on the effects it has on a soldier?

 

[Indos]

I feel like @PanzerKiel would have the most valuable opinion regarding this topic. He, like many, fight as a soldier and die for the country. His opinion is very valuable as he would be directly fighting for the state’s ideology and to defend the ideology even if it means giving up his life for it.
@PanzerKiel as a soldier, what is your opinion on fighting and dying for a secular state as opposed to an Islamic state? What is your opinion on fighting and dying fighting separatists or rebels as part of the armed forces of a hypothetical secular state? What is your opinion on the effects on the morale of soldiers (i.e would soldiers consider it Jihad or not? Would the desire to be Shaheed and go Jannah still be the same?) ? Do you think the recruiting process would be hurt (i.e people not willing to join army)? And finally, what do you think the new motto of the army would be if Pakistan becomes a secular state?

Pakistan is Muslim majority country where Islam is protected. Protecting Pakistan is similar like protecting Islam itself. Why do you try to make division between so called Islamic State in Iran/Taliban with other Muslim Majority countries ?

Your mind set mimic those TTP/AQ/ISIS.

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Here is to answer your question, right from former Indonesian Armed Force General

Former Indonesian Armed Force General said soldiers duty is to serve God as "Ibadah" for afterlife​

You know what I mean by Islamic state.
A country which has Islamic laws and Islam as the state religion.
Pakistan calls it self “Islamic Republic”.
I said state because countries are often referred to as states. Replace state with republic and the question remains the same.

Where in Madinah charter it said that Islam is the state religion ?

All religion is respected in Madinah and Muslim, Christian, and Jews live side by side and protected

Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sayfullah]

Protecting Pakistan is similar like protecting Islam itself.

Can the same be said for a secular Pakistan?

Why do you try to make division between so called Islamic State in Iran/Taliban with other Muslim Majority countries ?

If a country’s motivating ideology is secular and a minority ethnic group who’s also Muslim fights the Muslim secular country for independence, can it be religiously termed as jihad? How will it affect the country’s soldiers motivation?
Iran/Taliban are not the only states with Islam as state religion.
I am not making divisions.
I am making a division between countries like Azerbaijan and Saudi Arabia. One claims to be secular. The other claims to be Islamic. How can these two vastly different forms of government be grouped the same is the real question?
You are not understanding my question.

Your mind set mimic those TTP/AQ/ISIS.

If you think that way there’s nothing I can do to change your opinion.
It’s like if I ask an Indonesian soldier when Aceh rebels were fighting the state, how would secularism or having islam as a state religion affect your fight? If you think that’s TTP/AQ/ISIS ideology then I cannot do anything to help you.

Former Indonesian Armed Force General said soldiers duty is to serve God as "Ibadah" for afterlife

Ok. This isn’t related to my question either.
A secular state’s general saying this to a secular army would put the country’s secularism in question. Only a country with a state religion would actively support the religion and make it indistinguishable from its institutions such as army.

Where in Madinah charter it said that Islam is the state religion ?

What law did the Muslims of Madinah rule by?
Hint: it wasn’t secularism

All religion is respected in Madinah and Muslim, Christian, and Jews live side by side and protected

And they paid Jizya while Muslims payed normal taxes. Which law and religion told us about Jizya? Would a non religious state charge Jizya?

 

[Indos]

Can the same be said for a secular Pakistan?

If a country’s motivating ideology is secular and a minority ethnic group who’s also Muslim fights the Muslim secular country for independence, can it be religiously termed as jihad? How will it affect the country’s soldiers motivation?
Iran/Taliban are not the only states with Islam as state religion.
I am not making divisions.
I am making a division between countries like Azerbaijan and Saudi Arabia. One claims to be secular. The other claims to be Islamic. How can these two vastly different forms of government be grouped the same is the real question?
You are not understanding my question.

If you think that way there’s nothing I can do to change your opinion.
It’s like if I ask an Indonesian soldier when Aceh rebels were fighting the state, how would secularism or having islam as a state religion affect your fight? If you think that’s TTP/AQ/ISIS ideology then I cannot do anything to help you.

Ok. This isn’t related to my question either.
A secular state’s general saying this to a secular army would put the country’s secularism in question. Only a country with a state religion would actively support the religion and make it indistinguishable from its institutions such as army.


What law did the Muslims of Madinah rule by?
Hint: it wasn’t secularism


And they paid Jizya while Muslims payed normal taxes. Which law and religion told us about Jizya? Would a non religious state charge Jizya?

YOU ARE LIVING IN CANADA, PAYING TAX FOR CANADIAN STATE AND NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES ARE LESS ISLAMIC

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Surah As-Saf - 2-3 - Quran.com

(2) O believers! Why do you say what you do not do? (3) How despicable it is in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do!

quran.com

 

[Sayfullah]

Your mind set mimic those TTP/AQ/ISIS.

Thanks for saying my mindset is of khawarij. I hope you can prove your accusation on the day of judgement. Anyways, Allah knows my mindset and I don’t need anyone to tell me. And indeed Allah is the most just. So even if I’m accused of having the mindset of a khawarij and, by extensions being called a khawarij and, by extension saying my blood is halal and, by extension referring to me as a dog of hell (since in Hadith even the mindset of khawarij would make me a khawarij), Allah is the most just to provide me Justice from the accusers.

YOU ARE LIVING IN CANADA, PAYING TAX FOR CANADIAN STATE AND NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES ARE LESS ISLAMIC

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Surah As-Saf - 2-3 - Quran.com

(2) O believers! Why do you say what you do not do? (3) How despicable it is in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do!

quran.com

Where did I say Muslim majority countries are less Islamic? For example Azerbaijan claims secular. It doesn’t claim to be Islamic. So who gives me the right to call it Islamic when they them selves call them secular?
If you can’t read what I write please don’t reply and waste my time.

@Bleek @Mirzali Khan read through what I wrote and what the other member is saying. You’ll be surprised lool.

 

[PakFactor]

I feel like @PanzerKiel would have the most valuable opinion regarding this topic. He, like many, fight as a soldier and die for the country. His opinion is very valuable as he would be directly fighting for the state’s ideology and to defend the ideology even if it means giving up his life for it.
@PanzerKiel as a soldier, what is your opinion on fighting and dying for a secular state as opposed to an Islamic state? What is your opinion on fighting and dying fighting separatists or rebels as part of the armed forces of a hypothetical secular state? What is your opinion on the effects on the morale of soldiers (i.e would soldiers consider it Jihad or not? Would the desire to be Shaheed and go Jannah still be the same?) ? Do you think the recruiting process would be hurt (i.e people not willing to join army)? And finally, what do you think the new motto of the army would be if Pakistan becomes a secular state?

@PanzerKiel will not indulge in politics or offer an opinion. He's pretty strict with this rule. Though he can change his mind, he's walked a straight line so far.

 

[Sayfullah]

@PanzerKiel will not indulge in politics or offer an opinion. He's pretty strict with this rule. Though he can change his mind, he's walked a straight line so far.

But imo state ideology affects the soldier the most. After all, it’s the soldier who fights and dies for the state and to protect it and its ideology.

 

[TheSolution]

The real issue has also been Pakistani leaders, many in the past would make public speeches saying Pakistan is the protector of Islam, the home of Muslims, jihad etc, yada yada yada.

These idiots focused more on "Muslim" than "Pakistani" - no shit the next person that comes along who they perceive as more Muslim, they will be ready to fight against Pakistan on his orders.

Muslim is just a characteristic of what you are, not the primary thing. It should be Pakistani Muslim.

They made people suck up to every single country that was Muslim with their pan-Islamist rubbish to the point people were fighting against Pakistan for some goat fuckers in Afghanistan who had been blowing Pakistanis up for decades.

You don't see this in any other Islamic countries, they follow their religion and run the state - but these leaders installed extremism at a state level which was then preached at a societal level to uneducated kids and teens who were manipulated by terrorist.

They cared more about some pan-Islamist extremism than actually caring about Pakistan and living a good life as a Muslim, and this is partially due to the state and its leaders.

Let Islam be what Islam is, a lifestyle and values we follow, and let Pakistan be what it is, our country. Stop pushing this macho Pan-Islamist protector vibe down everyone's throats because it breeds inferiority complex slave mentality, and people will fight against Pakistan with the next person who comes along to brainwash them as being more "Muslim".

 

[TheSolution]

But imo state ideology affects the soldier the most. After all, it’s the soldier who fights and dies for the state and to protect it and its ideology.

The current set-up is the best.

Some laws should be removed, but overall having it be the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the reference to Islam and Sunnah being supreme ruling in the constitution is the best.

It's the societal level religious madrassas that require regulation where only highly qualified Islamic scholars can teach, not random men with beard.

And the leaders need to stop preaching Pan-Islamism, Pakistan first and Pakistan's society should be based on Islamic values.

If Muslim countries are open to it, we will have mutually beneficial relationships, not one-sided slave relationships in the name of Islam that some Pakistanis want where they are ready to go to war for clowns who refuse to help them, but instead help the enemy.

The world is heavily based around nationalism and self-interests, this pan-islamism will only get you used and abused. Something needs to be done with these slave minded Pakistanis.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Problem with Pakistan is trying to get the world view to adapt to what it thinks is right. WRONG!
Wanna get along with the world? Play by the rules that exist for everyone else.

Or get strong enough to create a new set of rules that others follow. Sadly there's no capacity in this country for it.

 

[Olympus81]

Again a futile agreement.

Pakistan’s ideology is fine. A largely secular constitution with no laws in conflict with Islam. You may call it Islamic Republic or something else, this is a question of semantics.

What is not fine is, religion is completely privatized here. From madrassahs, sermons, teachers, curriculum, the state has to be in full control. Any wayward sermon from a state sponsored one has to translate into automatic disqualification. This is the level of control the state needs to have over religion.

Instead of trying to manage Roosevelt hotels, textile mills, steel mills, airlines, we have completely lost control of education and other human development sectors.