Disclosing Kargil casualties would affect morale of troops: CIC

[kingkobra]

These bed time stories are a conspiracy by ISI to fool you Indians if you already aren't.

These videos of surrenders and POW are not conspiracy stories

 

[notsuperstitious]

India constituted an enquiry commission on Kargil, what about Pakistan, where is the commission.

Nawaz Sharif claimed 3000, ISPR website 453 while Musharraf claimed 260 Pakistani soldiers killed in Kargil.

Guys technical and legal principles work differently in pakistan. Its unfair to hold them to our standards.

Of the three Musharraf can lie most agressively, so as per the 'Right to Feeling Macho Act', Musharraf's figure is correct.

 

[haviZsultan]

This article is testimony of the fact that Pakistan was indeed highly successful during the Kargil war. If true casualties are being hidden by India it actually means Pakistan achieved much of its objectives in the war and suceeded in greatly weakening India. Our only mistake was not supporting the lashkaris that had captured peaks from India. Men died fighting in there. We Pakistanis salute them.

 

[Hulk]

All casualties in Kargil war were granted compensation to the tune of abt 40 to 50 klakh minimum (from various govts and agencies together). In 2013 terms thats minimum half a million dollars.

If any soldier has been excluded, their families have the all the incentive in the world to come forward and prove the casualty nos wrong.

But this CIC ruling is NOT about Kargil anyway.

Now discussing with pak army fanboys technical matters like Right to Information act in India is as futile as they teaching us the meaning of ''doctrine of necessity''. Legal system of the two countries works differently and even basic understanding of a technical ruling would be too much to ask, as is evident from the post above this one.

If you are expecting trolls to understand your explanation you are up for disappointment. I have never seen it happening in PDF.

 

[Necromancer]

Cut off from the reality of pain and affliction that would be brought upon the nation, the decision maker takes the course most suited to his whimsical ambitions. Possible hurdles are sidetracked, on the basis of ‘need to know’, or merely bulldozed. Never has there been an institutional decision for the bloodshed. And at the end of each fiasco, original objectives are redefined to cry, “Hurrah! We have won”.
Our leaders seek personal glory, and desire honour in the eyes of other nations. Sadly, that has become our definition of national honour; but how can we be respected when we have little self respect? So concerned have we become about how they perceive us that we openly deride our religion and all the social values that we once stood for.
The whole truth about Kargil is yet to be known. We await the stories of forgotten starved soldiers hiding behind cold desolate rocks, with empty guns still held in their hands.

Lt.Gen Shahid Aziz

This article is testimony of the fact that Pakistan was indeed highly successful during the Kargil war. If true casualties are being hidden by India it actually means Pakistan achieved much of its objectives in the war and suceeded in greatly weakening India. Our only mistake was not supporting the lashkaris that had captured peaks from India. Men died fighting in there. We Pakistanis salute them.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-142768-Kargil-war-was-a-total-disaster-claims-Gen-Majeed-Malik

 

[notsuperstitious]

This article is testimony of the fact that Pakistan was indeed highly successful during the Kargil war. If true casualties are being hidden by India it actually means Pakistan achieved much of its objectives in the war and suceeded in greatly weakening India. Our only mistake was not supporting the lashkaris that had captured peaks from India. Men died fighting in there. We Pakistanis salute them.

Yes, Indian information commissioner not opening military archives to ''Right to Information Act of India'' must mean all that

As if you were waiting for twisting of a technical ruling of the CIC of India (of whom you've not even heard of before today) to lap up the musharraf cool aid and believe in your ''great victory'' that ''greatly weakened'' India

 

[EzioAltaïr]

This article is testimony of the fact that Pakistan was indeed highly successful during the Kargil war. If true casualties are being hidden by India it actually means Pakistan achieved much of its objectives in the war and suceeded in greatly weakening India. Our only mistake was not supporting the lashkaris that had captured peaks from India. Men died fighting in there. We Pakistanis salute them.

"Weakening an army" without consolidating the gains is as good as a loss.

 

[ares]

indian army falsified Kargil battle records - Brigadier (Retd) Devinder Singh

Armed forces tribunal indicts Lt Gen for fake Kargil battle accounts
ET Bureau May 28, 2010, 04.55am IST

NEW DELHI: The Armed Forced Tribunal has indicted a former Lieutenant General for showing bias against a Brigadier, playing down his achievements and for falsifying accounts of battles.

In an unprecedented the tribunal has raised serious questions on the military leadership in the 1999 Kargil war.

The tribunal, whose observation has left the Army red-faced, directed that the officer concerned, Brigadier (Retd) Devinder Singh, on whose petition the order was passed, be considered for a notional promotion.

Brigadier Singh, who led the Batalik-based 70 Infantry Brigade during the war, had petitioned the Delhi high court in 2006, complaining that his performance during the conflict had been assessed incorrectly, which eventually cost him a war medal and also led to his supersession while being considered for promotion to the rank of Major General.

The case was transferred to the newly-formed Armed Forces Tribunal.

Brigadier Singh bemoaned that the report of Lt Gen Kishan Pal, then General Officer Commanding (GOC) of 15 Corps, who oversaw operations in that sector, not only cost him a war medal but also deprived him of a promotion.

In its order, the tribunal, headed by Justice A K Mathur, held that ``the annual confidential reports (ACRs) were not written in an objective and unbiased manner'' by Lt. Gen Pal.

Observing that the report of a person who writes ACRs in a biased manner could not be allowed to be sustained, it observed that the then GOC was not favourably motivated towards Brigadier Singh and had attempted to tailor the report belittling his achievements.

``As per the tribunal order, I will also be considered for promotion to the notional rank of a Major General and the records about the operations by my brigade in the war will be set straight,'' Brigadier (retd) Singh said here on Thursday.

In his plea, Brigadier Singh said he had contended that in the post-Kargil operations report, Lt Gen Pal had falsely shown four of his most successful battalions under a fictitious headquarters commanded by the then deputy general officer of 3 Infantry Division, Brigadier Ashok Duggal.

``For reasons best known to Lt Gen Kishan Pal, he was favouring and giving credit to Brigadier Duggal and my command tenure was shown in bad light. Though it could not help him and he could not take his next rank, I had to suffer a lot because of this act,'' Brigadier Singh said.

Due to the `fudged' battle accounts, Brigadier Singh was awarded only a Vishisht Seva Medal (VSM), and not a Mahavir Chakra, for which he had been cited.

During the visit of then Army Chief Gen V P Malik to the war-front, Lt Gen Kishan Pal had estimated the number of intruders to be around 45 whereas Brigadier Singh estimated it to be over 600, which later proved to be right.

Brigadier Singh filed a complaint with the Army Headquarters in 2000, charging Lt Gen Pal with bias, which was rejected by the Army two years later.

In 2004, the defence ministry struck down Lt Gen Pal's assessment of Brigadier Singh's battle performance, but refused to strike down key sections of his ACR written by the former Corps Commander.

General Malik, however, defended the actions taken by the Army during the war, described by him as the most ``well-documented and transparent'' war India had ever fought, and maintained that issue was between Brigadier Singh and the Corps Commander.

Asked about Brigadier Singh's claims that there was a difference of opinion between him and Lt Gen Pal on the estimation of intruders, the former Army chief said, ``by the time I visited his Brigade sector, we had the Cabinet permission to treat it as a full-fledged war with Pakistan Army and not militants.''

The then Army chief, nevertheless, agreed that injustice had been done to Brigadier Singh, and said that he had ``personally intervened to get the former 70 Brigade Commander a VSM.''

Asked if the Army should appeal against the verdict, General Malik said whatever order has been given by the Tribunal, the Army should follow it.

The Army reacted cautiously to the Tribunal's order backing claims that top commanders had fudged accounts of the 1999 Kargil war, particularly of battles waged in the Batalik sector.

While General Malik cited the account-fudging incident as an `aberration,' the Army said that it will take action on the issue only after analysing the verdict. ``We have not yet received the copy of Tribunal's judgement. Once we get it, it will be analysed and appropriate action would be taken,'' a senior Army officer told a news agency.

 

[danger007]

These bed time stories are a conspiracy by ISI to fool you Indians if you already aren't.

yeah we know it will be conspiracy if it is against pak otherwise it will be reliable .... ehh double standard isn't it..

 

[amardeep mishra]

As in 2002. !!!

This is just the tip of the iceberg, the admitted losses of 500 odd are nothing more than saving the face figure. !!

pakistani logic never fail to amuse me! really!
indian army has issued the official list of those killed in the battle,whereas pakistan army never released an official list! all are mere claims of various pakistani officials,
and besides,IA is far more credible than PA when it comes to official declarations

 

[kurup]

Can you present me any other example from history where quoting war casualties of both self and the enemy of a successful military campaign are demoralizing for the troops and the nation.

Well answer is in front of you ---- Pakistan Army .

According to pakistanis , pakistan won the kargil war . But it took them 11 years to accept that their own soldiers participated in the war. And most funnier thing is the list of casualities changes with almost everyone.Military , former army chief , former military officials , former intelligence officilas , political leadership -- all have their own numbers.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Armed forces tribunal indicts Lt Gen for fake Kargil battle accounts
ET Bureau May 28, 2010, 04.55am IST

NEW DELHI: The Armed Forced Tribunal has indicted a former Lieutenant General for showing bias against a Brigadier, playing down his achievements and for falsifying accounts of battles.

In an unprecedented the tribunal has raised serious questions on the military leadership in the 1999 Kargil war.

The tribunal, whose observation has left the Army red-faced, directed that the officer concerned, Brigadier (Retd) Devinder Singh, on whose petition the order was passed, be considered for a notional promotion.

Brigadier Singh, who led the Batalik-based 70 Infantry Brigade during the war, had petitioned the Delhi high court in 2006, complaining that his performance during the conflict had been assessed incorrectly, which eventually cost him a war medal and also led to his supersession while being considered for promotion to the rank of Major General.

The case was transferred to the newly-formed Armed Forces Tribunal.

Brigadier Singh bemoaned that the report of Lt Gen Kishan Pal, then General Officer Commanding (GOC) of 15 Corps, who oversaw operations in that sector, not only cost him a war medal but also deprived him of a promotion.

In its order, the tribunal, headed by Justice A K Mathur, held that ``the annual confidential reports (ACRs) were not written in an objective and unbiased manner'' by Lt. Gen Pal.

Observing that the report of a person who writes ACRs in a biased manner could not be allowed to be sustained, it observed that the then GOC was not favourably motivated towards Brigadier Singh and had attempted to tailor the report belittling his achievements.

``As per the tribunal order, I will also be considered for promotion to the notional rank of a Major General and the records about the operations by my brigade in the war will be set straight,'' Brigadier (retd) Singh said here on Thursday.

In his plea, Brigadier Singh said he had contended that in the post-Kargil operations report, Lt Gen Pal had falsely shown four of his most successful battalions under a fictitious headquarters commanded by the then deputy general officer of 3 Infantry Division, Brigadier Ashok Duggal.

``For reasons best known to Lt Gen Kishan Pal, he was favouring and giving credit to Brigadier Duggal and my command tenure was shown in bad light. Though it could not help him and he could not take his next rank, I had to suffer a lot because of this act,'' Brigadier Singh said.

Due to the `fudged' battle accounts, Brigadier Singh was awarded only a Vishisht Seva Medal (VSM), and not a Mahavir Chakra, for which he had been cited.

During the visit of then Army Chief Gen V P Malik to the war-front, Lt Gen Kishan Pal had estimated the number of intruders to be around 45 whereas Brigadier Singh estimated it to be over 600, which later proved to be right.

Brigadier Singh filed a complaint with the Army Headquarters in 2000, charging Lt Gen Pal with bias, which was rejected by the Army two years later.

In 2004, the defence ministry struck down Lt Gen Pal's assessment of Brigadier Singh's battle performance, but refused to strike down key sections of his ACR written by the former Corps Commander.

General Malik, however, defended the actions taken by the Army during the war, described by him as the most ``well-documented and transparent'' war India had ever fought, and maintained that issue was between Brigadier Singh and the Corps Commander.

Asked about Brigadier Singh's claims that there was a difference of opinion between him and Lt Gen Pal on the estimation of intruders, the former Army chief said, ``by the time I visited his Brigade sector, we had the Cabinet permission to treat it as a full-fledged war with Pakistan Army and not militants.''

The then Army chief, nevertheless, agreed that injustice had been done to Brigadier Singh, and said that he had ``personally intervened to get the former 70 Brigade Commander a VSM.''

Asked if the Army should appeal against the verdict, General Malik said whatever order has been given by the Tribunal, the Army should follow it.

The Army reacted cautiously to the Tribunal's order backing claims that top commanders had fudged accounts of the 1999 Kargil war, particularly of battles waged in the Batalik sector.

While General Malik cited the account-fudging incident as an `aberration,' the Army said that it will take action on the issue only after analysing the verdict. ``We have not yet received the copy of Tribunal's judgement. Once we get it, it will be analysed and appropriate action would be taken,'' a senior Army officer told a news agency.

They feel so proud of our army playing down it's achievements.

 

[Windjammer]

India constituted an enquiry commission on Kargil, what about Pakistan, where is the commission.

Nawaz Sharif claimed 3000, ISPR website 453 while Musharraf claimed 260 Pakistani soldiers killed in Kargil.

So NS who maintains that he wasn't aware of the operations, some how claims to know the casualty figure.
As said before, Indians can't deny that all the fighting took place on the Indian side hence all the causalities would have also occurred there......if one goes by the nonsensical figure of 3000.....then that's saying that while fighting was in progress, Pakistan managed to recover and retrieve some 3000 bodies......how pathetic is that.

India may have constituted a commission but has all been revealed ....hell a decade after the conflict , it's your own media that claims Pakistan still occupies four Kargil peaks...... as they say...just watch this space. !!

 

[naseem shah]

Not sure why Pakistani gloat about casualties suffered at Indian side. You guys were sitting on top of hill and soldiers were climbing from the bottom. It is normal to have more casualties. Also the other aspect is that initially Army did not reacted to Kargil as action against soldiers with big guns and thought they were mujaheddin, this mistake also led to lot of casualties. IA made huge mistake in not getting to know the really enemy till late and treating them with kid gloves initially. When they knew and brought the Artillery and IAF, things changed big time.

I think you are taking mujahideen very easy they are very good fighters

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Armed forces tribunal indicts Lt Gen for fake Kargil battle accounts
ET Bureau May 28, 2010, 04.55am IST

NEW DELHI: The Armed Forced Tribunal has indicted a former Lieutenant General for showing bias against a Brigadier, playing down his achievements and for falsifying accounts of battles.

In an unprecedented the tribunal has raised serious questions on the military leadership in the 1999 Kargil war.

The tribunal, whose observation has left the Army red-faced, directed that the officer concerned, Brigadier (Retd) Devinder Singh, on whose petition the order was passed, be considered for a notional promotion.

Brigadier Singh, who led the Batalik-based 70 Infantry Brigade during the war, had petitioned the Delhi high court in 2006, complaining that his performance during the conflict had been assessed incorrectly, which eventually cost him a war medal and also led to his supersession while being considered for promotion to the rank of Major General.

The case was transferred to the newly-formed Armed Forces Tribunal.

Brigadier Singh bemoaned that the report of Lt Gen Kishan Pal, then General Officer Commanding (GOC) of 15 Corps, who oversaw operations in that sector, not only cost him a war medal but also deprived him of a promotion.

In its order, the tribunal, headed by Justice A K Mathur, held that ``the annual confidential reports (ACRs) were not written in an objective and unbiased manner'' by Lt. Gen Pal.

Observing that the report of a person who writes ACRs in a biased manner could not be allowed to be sustained, it observed that the then GOC was not favourably motivated towards Brigadier Singh and had attempted to tailor the report belittling his achievements.

``As per the tribunal order, I will also be considered for promotion to the notional rank of a Major General and the records about the operations by my brigade in the war will be set straight,'' Brigadier (retd) Singh said here on Thursday.

In his plea, Brigadier Singh said he had contended that in the post-Kargil operations report, Lt Gen Pal had falsely shown four of his most successful battalions under a fictitious headquarters commanded by the then deputy general officer of 3 Infantry Division, Brigadier Ashok Duggal.

``For reasons best known to Lt Gen Kishan Pal, he was favouring and giving credit to Brigadier Duggal and my command tenure was shown in bad light. Though it could not help him and he could not take his next rank, I had to suffer a lot because of this act,'' Brigadier Singh said.

Due to the `fudged' battle accounts, Brigadier Singh was awarded only a Vishisht Seva Medal (VSM), and not a Mahavir Chakra, for which he had been cited.

During the visit of then Army Chief Gen V P Malik to the war-front, Lt Gen Kishan Pal had estimated the number of intruders to be around 45 whereas Brigadier Singh estimated it to be over 600, which later proved to be right.

Brigadier Singh filed a complaint with the Army Headquarters in 2000, charging Lt Gen Pal with bias, which was rejected by the Army two years later.

In 2004, the defence ministry struck down Lt Gen Pal's assessment of Brigadier Singh's battle performance, but refused to strike down key sections of his ACR written by the former Corps Commander.

General Malik, however, defended the actions taken by the Army during the war, described by him as the most ``well-documented and transparent'' war India had ever fought, and maintained that issue was between Brigadier Singh and the Corps Commander.

Asked about Brigadier Singh's claims that there was a difference of opinion between him and Lt Gen Pal on the estimation of intruders, the former Army chief said, ``by the time I visited his Brigade sector, we had the Cabinet permission to treat it as a full-fledged war with Pakistan Army and not militants.''

The then Army chief, nevertheless, agreed that injustice had been done to Brigadier Singh, and said that he had ``personally intervened to get the former 70 Brigade Commander a VSM.''

Asked if the Army should appeal against the verdict, General Malik said whatever order has been given by the Tribunal, the Army should follow it.

The Army reacted cautiously to the Tribunal's order backing claims that top commanders had fudged accounts of the 1999 Kargil war, particularly of battles waged in the Batalik sector.

While General Malik cited the account-fudging incident as an `aberration,' the Army said that it will take action on the issue only after analysing the verdict. ``We have not yet received the copy of Tribunal's judgement. Once we get it, it will be analysed and appropriate action would be taken,'' a senior Army officer told a news agency.

If there were just 600 intruders than how did u manage to martyr 4000 imaginery soldiers?

pakistani logic never fail to amuse me! really!
indian army has issued the official list of those killed in the battle,whereas pakistan army never released an official list! all are mere claims of various pakistani officials,
and besides,IA is far more credible than PA when it comes to official declarations

PA still has to give medals and prothemous awards for fake battles and to alive soldiers...

Well answer is in front of you ---- Pakistan Army .

According to pakistanis , pakistan won the kargil war . But it took them 11 years to accept that their own soldiers participated in the war. And most funnier thing is the list of casualities changes with almost everyone.Military , former army chief , former military officials , former intelligence officilas , political leadership -- all have their own numbers.

Is that why Capt Kernal Sher Khan and Havaldar Lalak Jan were given NH in early 2000s?