Disclosing Kargil casualties would affect morale of troops: CIC

[ares]

1. Not really, Point 5353 was under Indian occupation and was within Indian territory. There were dug-in bunkers there that were established by Indian Army.

Wrong, Indian troops have never been deployed on point 5353, yes point 5353 is officially Indian territory(as per Shimla agreement) with LOC running right next to it

2. I know. Kind of like in Siachin!

Yes kind of like Siachin, before Pakistani army started planning to occupy it.

3. I know, kind of like India did in Siachin.

It is well know fact Indian army only initiated Siachin operation only after intelligence of Pakistani army plans(for occupying Siachin was rcvd.)

4. Indian troops could not occupy their own peaks let alone think of occupying Pakistani peaks. Indian Military could not dare move an inch across the Loc or anywhere along the border!

It will bode you well to acquaint your self with facts about Kargil, before participating in a debate over it.

At the end of the Kargil war, Indian troops were yet to reach Point 5353, and had secured the occupation of only two secondary positions on the Marpo La ridge line, Charlie 6 and Charlie 7. Indian troops had also been unable to evict Pakistani soldiers from Point 5240, some 1,200 metres as the crow flies from Point 5353.56 Brigade Commander Amar Aul, in charge of the operations to secure Point 5353, responded by occupying two heights, Points 4875 and 4251, on the Pakistani side of the LoC, just before the ceasefire came into force. Aul's tactics were designed to secure a subsequent territorial exchange. In mid-August 1999, his efforts to bring about a deal bore fruit. Extended negotiations between the Brigadier and a Pakistani interlocutor, who called himself Colonel Saqlain, led to both sides committing themselves to leaving Points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied. Both Indian and Pakistani troops were pulled back to their pre-Kargil positions, leaving an aerial distance of about a kilometre between the armies along most of the Marpo La ridge.

A new chief for the Army

And most importantly, how committed was Pakistan in Kargil??

No where as committed as India is in Siachen.

You do realize that Indian Army has been involved in many things considered conduct unbecoming of military? From selling off military weapons to terrorists to Samjhota Express to staged dramas of bravado and heroism to award of highest posthumous award to a live soldier etc.

Please, spare us the bullshit!!

None of what you say has any consequence or any relation Indian army casualty figures in Kargil.

If you have any evidence proving contrary, then bring it forth, otherwise lay off!!

 

[Mav3rick]

because many sources includig gen aziz revealed it,all you have as source is mushy himself,besides it was planned and exicuted by your army generals and arms, used were also from army, any way either way it made little differance.

That regular army was fighting in Kargil? My statement that NLI along with Mujahideen were involved is what you do not agree to right?

partially,india is capable to retake the other part if desperat, but we are not ready to pay a high price for that, we choose to be happy with what we have while pak is neither capable to aulter the boundary nor are happy with curant statues, thats the differance.

On the contrary, I believe that Pakistan can retake Jammu Kashmir from India, if desperate enough. India has never really been able to take anything from anyone that can actually fight back.

i disagree,no real evidane to convince UN or west.

It was not so long ago when one of the senior most US Official, you know who, stated on media that India was creating problems for Pakistan through Afghanistan. What more does the west/UN need?

terrorism has not been stopped, yes it decreased due to situations in both countries,how ever it is still too early to assert whether its bcoz of changed intention or lack of capacity .

Do you remember the freedom struggle of the 90's? It stopped cold the moment Musharraf assumed power as he wanted better relations with India and wanted to solve the Kashmir issue once and for all, through dialogue.

Even since Pakistan stopped supporting Kashmiri freedom struggle through arms, India has been engaged in terrorism in Pakistan.

only practcal solution i see is LOC as IB

Same here.

 

[Mav3rick]

Yes kind of like Siachin, before Pakistani army started planning to occupy it.

It is well know fact Indian army only initiated Siachin operation only after intelligence of Pakistani army plans(for occupying Siachin was rcvd.)

Pakistan Army never intended to occupy Siachin, what you could not digest was the expeditions and tours that Pakistan Army was facilitating for tourists!!!

It will bode you well to acquaint your self with facts about Kargil, before participating in a debate over it.

I consider myself to be better equipped with facts to believe your stories or links that do not even work!!

No where as committed as India is in Siachen.

Exactly my point.

None of what you say has any consequence or any relation Indian army casualty figures in Kargil.

If you have any evidence proving contrary, then bring it forth, otherwise lay off!!

Should I care? If you believe that 527 Indian soldiers died in Kargil then so be it.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

That regular army was fighting in Kargil? My statement that NLI along with Mujahideen were involved is what you do not agree to right?

NLI and mujahidin were very less compared to regulars.

On the contrary, I believe that Pakistan can retake Jammu Kashmir from India, if desperate enough. India has never really been able to take anything from anyone that can actually fight back.

I don't see any possible way for Pakistan to snatch Kashmir from India,even if it go nuclear also.

It was not so long ago when one of the senior most US Official, you know who, stated on media that India was creating problems for Pakistan through Afghanistan. What more does the west/UN need?

Senator Chuck Hagel's controversial remark was made on 2011, pak couldn't cash it till now, not likely in future also because the overall policy of obama administration encourages Indians role in Afghanistan, in the light of larger info US relations such odd statements hold little value and Pakistan's voice will remain a far cry.afghan govt also support our implement in afghan along with US which appreciated India's positive role in Afghanistan after protest from India about chuk hegal comments.

Do you remember the freedom struggle of the 90's? It stopped cold the moment Musharraf assumed power as he wanted better relations with India and wanted to solve the Kashmir issue once and for all, through dialogue.

that's history now, I am talking about current cross border activities, and even musharaf admitted that controlling terror outfits in Pakistan is difficult, so you see even if there is intention Pakistan is not capable, either to support or destroy anti India terror outfits fully under current circumstances.

Even since Pakistan stopped supporting Kashmiri freedom struggle through arms, India has been engaged in terrorism in Pakistan.

again, even if I assume we are, Pakistan doesn't have enough proof, voice or diplomatic clout to use it for it's advantage, unlike India which has numerous satisfying evidence and diplomatic power to use it for our advantage.

 

[ares]

Pakistan Army never intended to occupy Siachin, what you could not digest was the expeditions and tours that Pakistan Army was facilitating for tourists!!!


I consider myself to be better equipped with facts to believe your stories or links that do not even work!!

LOL ..you say you are well informed, yet you don't even know that Pakistan already had operational plans to occupy Siachen ..all the gear was ready ,so were the men, operation date was fixed.

Operation Meghdoot was planned to beat Pakistani army's expected operation date by 4 days. However Pakistani army arrived with in seven days of Indian army.
Not because, they had detected Indian operation plans and hurriedly bought arctic clothing and rushed men up Siachen but because that was the 'plan'.

As for the link. it is working fine here. How ever, one does not need a link to read the article(just presence of mind), one can just do a Google search of 'excerpt'(I have quoted ) from the article.. Google will automatically give you link.

Exactly my point.

Your point being , 'your soldiers are so expendable, that you send them to their deaths, without committing to the cause they are fighting for ??!!

Should I care? If you believe that 527 Indian soldiers died in Kargil then so be it.

Touché

 

[Mav3rick]

NLI and mujahidin were very less compared to regulars.

And what do you have to backup your opinion?

I don't see any possible way for Pakistan to snatch Kashmir from India,even if it go nuclear also.

Nuclear Exchange, for any reason, is not possible.

Speaking of probability, Pakistan would have a higher chance of snatching Jammu Kashmir then of India taking back Azad Kashmir.

Senator Chuck Hagel's controversial remark was made on 2011, pak couldn't cash it till now, not likely in future also because the overall policy of obama administration encourages Indians role in Afghanistan, in the light of larger info US relations such odd statements hold little value and Pakistan's voice will remain a far cry.afghan govt also support our implement in afghan along with US which appreciated India's positive role in Afghanistan after protest from India about chuk hegal comments.

You are straying from the point, point was that the US is indeed aware of adverse Indian activities through Afghanistan vis-a-vis Pakistan.

that's history now, I am talking about current cross border activities, and even musharaf admitted that controlling terror outfits in Pakistan is difficult, so you see even if there is intention Pakistan is not capable, either to support or destroy anti India terror outfits fully under current circumstances.

The sole super power of the world along with some 40 odd NATO allies could not tame the Talibaan, so yeah Pakistan cannot do it either. But........we should focus more on the official Pakistani stand and Indian response since Musharraf assumed power.

again, even if I assume we are, Pakistan doesn't have enough proof, voice or diplomatic clout to use it for it's advantage, unlike India which has numerous satisfying evidence and diplomatic power to use it for our advantage.

I thought we were discussing facts and not the ability, or lack of it, of cashing in the case by Pakistan. For example, Kasab, the so called attacker from Pakistan, was never produced before any neutral agency. Even Pakistani prosecution team was barred from interogating Kasab despite the team being in India!! Speaks volumes of what the real story was.....ofcourse the superb diplomacy from India ensured that the one sided story was trusted internationally.

 

[Mav3rick]

LOL ..you say you are well informed, yet you don't even know that Pakistan already had operational plans to occupy Siachen ..all the gear was ready ,so were the men, operation date was fixed.

As I said earlier, Pakistan Army had no plans to occupy Siachin and they only chose to do so after discovering Indian plans.

Operation Meghdoot was planned to beat Pakistani army's expected operation date by 4 days. However Pakistani army arrived with in seven days of Indian army.
Not because, they had detected Indian operation plans and hurriedly bought arctic clothing and rushed men up Siachen but because that was the 'plan'.

Dude, Indian Army was already purchasing arctic equipment from a company, unfortunately for Pakistan, the same company was awarded contract to provide arctic gear to Pakistan Army and that's how the Indians knew that their plans had been exposed. They just moved ahead with their plans and occupied the area even before they had initially planned to do so.

As for the link. it is working fine here. How ever, one does not need a link to read the article(just presence of mind), one can just do a Google search of 'excerpt'(I have quoted ) from the article.. Google will automatically give you link.

You realize that would only happen if I were so desperate to actually prove you right. However, as I am aware how 'correct' you actually are, I saved myself a bit of time instead.

Your point being , 'your soldiers are so expendable, that you send them to their deaths, without committing to the cause they are fighting for ??!!

Point being, we made an attempt and succeeded. Then we lost the military success on the diplomatic front and never pursued it again. On the contrary, Indian Army loses 3 times more soldiers in Siachin then Pakistan yet it continues to hold the position.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

And what do you have to backup your opinion?

read revelations of general shahid aziz.

Nuclear Exchange, for any reason, is not possible.

Speaking of probability, Pakistan would have a higher chance of snatching Jammu Kashmir then of India taking back Azad Kashmir.

again it's just your hope against rationality which tells you that pak is conventionally weaker in military strength in numbers as well as quality.

You are straying from the point, point was that the US is indeed aware of adverse Indian activities through Afghanistan vis-a-vis Pakistan.

even if we were(for which no strong evidence is present) America will keep quiet.we don't know details of such activities,the nature of activities,one or two odd statements hardly make an impact.

The sole super power of the world along with some 40 odd NATO allies could not tame the Talibaan, so yeah Pakistan cannot do it either. But........we should focus more on the official Pakistani stand and Indian response since Musharraf assumed power.

MUSHARAF is long gone, as for official stand of pak army, there is trust deficit between Indian govt and pak army/govtbecause of well known reasons, so we can't take words as a guarantee, we have to judge it by results, and change of results (infiltration and anti India activities, ) could be a result a result of intentions or lack of capability as I said earlier, we need time to be sure what it is.On the other hand pak ministers continue to give provoking statements and guys like hafiz sayed is roaming free, and don't give court set him free because he is a UN declared terrorist and his actions including planning 26/11 happened in Pakistan, so it's Pakistani investigating agencies responsibility to collect evidence against him.

I thought we were discussing facts and not the ability, or lack of it, of cashing in the case by Pakistan. For example, Kasab, the so called attacker from Pakistan, was never produced before any neutral agency.

in forum debates like this it's not at all possible to convince other side about proof unless it is something overwhelming like 26/11 or 9/11 even then some people refuse to accept the truth throwing some conspiracy theory. so then the only possible out come is to discuss international perception and how acceptable is one's position in world forums.

Even Pakistani prosecution team was barred from interogating Kasab despite the team being in India!! Speaks volumes of what the real story was.....ofcourse the superb diplomacy from India ensured that the one sided story was trusted internationally.

India wants 26/11 probe team to visit Pakistan first

are you one of those who believe 26/11 was some large India, isreal master plan and ajmal kasab is amarsingh or some Indian guy ?

 

[deckingraj]

It isn't stubbornness. It is simply that I don't agree with lies Indians believe in.

It is not about lies....People are giving you hard core logic(i am only refering to Army not disclosing anything under RTI)...rest i am not bothered...

This whole victory thing is disputed. There are still peaks that are said to be in the control of PA. There were news of advancements in Turtuk sector by PA. The IA thinks that by disclosing war casualties would demoralize its troops. All this obscurity makes these victory claims too shady.

Again you are making kiddish comments....As said even if i take those claims as hard core truth(about peaks) still it is handsome victory for India...PA did not came almost 10 KM deep and way more than 100 KM in breadth for these peaks....We were caught with our Pants down with heights as difficult as Kargil to capture and that too with a mandate of not crossing LOC at any stage...so once again Yes it was a beautiful and hard faught victory...

If they are already made public and if they are indeed true. Why not answer all the questions surrounding these casualties to end this topic for good. Why answering further on this topic would demoralize the Indian troops. Or the world should satisfied with the face value that IA gave back in 1999 and accept India's victory claim.

Again you are simply ignoring what we have said about RTI viz-a-viz Army...Anyways what you think is the Indian casulty....1000/10000/50000 or what...and even if they were supposed to be true still it is victory for India(though with heavy price)...Victory is a victory...no matter at what cost it came....no??

True. The mission didn't inflict huge damage to India. But still you can't deny that IN was clueless and didn't respond to this provocation.

No way i am denying anything...however here we are talking about achieving the mission objectives...If the mission objectives are not met then perhaps victory celebration are hollow...Anyhow i think this point is needless....so let's leave it there....

And that is a big lie my friend. You guys don't even realize that while you were about to celebrate your first independence day back in august 1948, you actually lost the winter capital of Ladakh province to Pakistan. And that happened months after IA entered Kashmir. Yeah IA troops fought bravely. No doubt about that. But still you lost the territory. Pakistanis actually won a major town of Ladakh ontheir first independence day.
And I am not even talking about what happened in Mirpur, Kotli etc etc.

Without even checking these details i give this to you...I will take your words as it is...Anyhow let's get back to the topic in Hand....

 

[deckingraj]

And what do you have to backup your opinion?

I am not a military expert but still have the basic sense using which i can say that guerrilla fighting and mountain warfare are two different ball games. Mujaheddin are guerrillas...Look it is all about training...Hard Core Soldiers on both sides of the border are not good in guerrilla tactics because they were never trained for this kind of warfare...b/w Pakistan media is erupting lately with so many talk shows on this subject where experts from all areas are sharing their views...At least listen to your people...No body with an iota of knowledge in Military affairs bought Pakistan stand on Mujahedin then and now...so why waste time on this???

Speaking of probability, Pakistan would have a higher chance of snatching Jammu Kashmir then of India taking back Azad Kashmir.

And you reasoning of this belief would be??

The sole super power of the world along with some 40 odd NATO allies could not tame the Talibaan, so yeah Pakistan cannot do it either. But........we should focus more on the official Pakistani stand and Indian response since Musharraf assumed power.

I don't know what point you are debating here but two things have helped here

a) Cease-Fire on LOC - This simply took away the cover that PA used to provide to these scum bags and now it becomes difficult for them to cross over
b) Technology improvements have made IA far more lethal in detecting any sinister movements
c) The father of all reasons is 9/11...Worlds definition of Terrorism have changed and they can no longer be fed openly under the guise of Freedom Fighters...

I thought we were discussing facts and not the ability, or lack of it, of cashing in the case by Pakistan. For example, Kasab, the so called attacker from Pakistan, was never produced before any neutral agency. Even Pakistani prosecution team was barred from interogating Kasab despite the team being in India!! Speaks volumes of what the real story was.....ofcourse the superb diplomacy from India ensured that the one sided story was trusted internationally.

Not sure again of what the point is being debated here...but why would a terrorist caught while committing terror in India will be produced before a neutral agency?? Are you saying that Kasab and entire mumbai saga was some conspiracy??? Jeez...i hope not...or else i have wasted some precious movement of my life on somebody who is living in some lalala land...

 

[Thorough Pro]

Speaks for the mighty tall claims of Indians.

New Delhi: The disclosure of information related to casualties suffered by Army during Kargil war and number of militants killed cannot be made public as it would “affect morale of nation”, India’s Central Information Commission has held in an order 14 years after the war. Ironically, most of the details which Information Commissioner ML Sharma allowed the Army to withhold are already in public domain through the official website of the Press Information Bureau, a government of India department.

A feature given on the PIB website on “Operation Vijay” says that 527 soldiers and airmen laid down their lives during the Kargil war.

The curious decision of Sharma came on the plea of RTI applicant Om Prakash Kashiram who sought to know from the Army the number of militants and the Indian soldiers killed in the Kargil War and the matters related therewith.

The information which was sought last year in May was denied by army citing section 8(1)(a) of the RTI Act which allows withholding of information, disclosure of which would prejudicially affect the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security, strategic, scientific or economic interests of the State, relation with foreign State or lead to incitement of an offence.

Kashiram then preferred an appeal before the CIC contesting the claims of Army.

When the matter reached Sharma, he agreed with the views taken by Army and allowed withholding information.

“War related casualties cannot be placed in public domain without a reasonable distance of time as they affect the morale of the nation in general and that of the troops in particular. Disclosure of such information has a bearing on the national security,” Sharma held in his order which was given nearly 14 years of the war.

Disclosing Kargil casualties would affect morale of troops: CIC

 

[Mav3rick]

I am not a military expert but still have the basic sense using which i can say that guerrilla fighting and mountain warfare are two different ball games. Mujaheddin are guerrillas...Look it is all about training...Hard Core Soldiers on both sides of the border are not good in guerrilla tactics because they were never trained for this kind of warfare...b/w Pakistan media is erupting lately with so many talk shows on this subject where experts from all areas are sharing their views...At least listen to your people...No body with an iota of knowledge in Military affairs bought Pakistan stand on Mujahedin then and now...so why waste time on this???

I know people that live in areas where temperature routinely crosses 50 Degrees Celsius, they survive it, I know people live in areas where temperatures routinely cross -10 Degrees Cesius and they survive it. It is literally quite foolish to undermine the resolve of someone for whom this life is meaningless!

NLI was most definitely the most active fighting force in Kargil and they were non regulars too. So basically, there was hardly any Pakistani military presence at Kargil.

And you reasoning of this belief would be??

You want an honest answer? It was a rhetorical response to somebody's similar post.

I don't know what point you are debating here but two things have helped here

a) Cease-Fire on LOC - This simply took away the cover that PA used to provide to these scum bags and now it becomes difficult for them to cross over
b) Technology improvements have made IA far more lethal in detecting any sinister movements
c) The father of all reasons is 9/11...Worlds definition of Terrorism have changed and they can no longer be fed openly under the guise of Freedom Fighters...

a) Can CF be unilateral and single sided?
b) Yes, but practically they can still not detect or prevent movements.
c) Libya/Syria & notices on Baluchistan in the US etc., stop fooling yourself.

Not sure again of what the point is being debated here...but why would a terrorist caught while committing terror in India will be produced before a neutral agency?? Are you saying that Kasab and entire mumbai saga was some conspiracy??? Jeez...i hope not...or else i have wasted some precious movement of my life on somebody who is living in some lalala land...

Yes, I am quite certain that the Kasab incident was a conspiracy, a red flag operation by your own agencies. Otherwise, India would have lodged an official case against Pakistan at the UN and would have produced culprits to be interrogated by UN Officials.

Even more importantly, what purpose did India have in refusing access to Kasab for Pakistani officials who were investigating the entire saga?

 

[deckingraj]

lol....sorry to say but i am certain that you have nothing to do with military operations and how things work...In case your intention is to know the truth then my sincere advice plz read a lot on this subject...Moreover listen to your own experts since believing anybody with the name tag Indian would be too difficult to you....

I know people that live in areas where temperature routinely crosses 50 Degrees Celsius, they survive it, I know people live in areas where temperatures routinely cross -10 Degrees Cesius and they survive it. It is literally quite foolish to undermine the resolve of someone for whom this life is meaningless!

NLI was most definitely the most active fighting force in Kargil and they were non regulars too. So basically, there was hardly any Pakistani military presence at Kargil.

Not sure what should i say here....Well let me ask this in a different fashion....You must have some source based on which you are claiming this...mind sharing?? b/w simple logic...irrespective of what your resolve be if you are not trained for a particular task you are bound to fail...Anybody who is not trained in Mountain warfare will not survive there...Period!!....Look Kargil was anyways a very bad plan by your military brass...don't make them look like an even bigger fool by sending people for this task who are not even trained in this aspect...Think mate...think before you type!!

You want an honest answer? It was a rhetorical response to somebody's similar post.

Well then let's ignore it...

a) Can CF be unilateral and single sided?
b) Yes, but practically they can still not detect or prevent movements.
c) Libya/Syria & notices on Baluchistan in the US etc., stop fooling yourself.

a) it is not...Stop living in some dream land....CeaseFire is more or less maintained from Both sides with some exceptions...
b) Again...educate yourself...If you say they cannot detect or prevent all movements...Yes...however the percentage of these movements being detected is way higher than what it was a decade ago.
c) Man...not sure whom i am talking to...You have little knowledge on geo-politics as well...

Yes, I am quite certain that the Kasab incident was a conspiracy, a red flag operation by your own agencies. Otherwise, India would have lodged an official case against Pakistan at the UN and would have produced culprits to be interrogated by UN Officials.

Even more importantly, what purpose did India have in refusing access to Kasab for Pakistani officials who were investigating the entire saga?

bcoz Kasab had done a crime in India...and only a fool shall expect that this case should have been taken to UN...Sorry to say but your demand is extremely juvenile...Can you share any such example with countries like US/UK/CHina/RUssia etc??