Disclosing Kargil casualties would affect morale of troops: CIC

[EyelessInGaza]

As I said earlier, in which dream can India thrash Pakistan in a war??? In 1965 we had thrashed you black and blue to the point where you called out for a cease fire, signed the document a day earlier then Pakistan and had exhausted 80% of your ammunition! Not just that, you refused neutral arbitration to, most likely, protect the morale of soldiers....whatever of it was left! Now remember, this was done to you by a country that is 1/7th your size and 1/3rd your military.

................

It is interesting to see that this is how history is recalled. I am sure both sides are biased; so what neutral sources do you have to buttress these claims?

As far as I know, claims and counterclaims by the two belligerents aside, the vast majority of neutral reports at least placed India as the one holding the advantage, if not the victor.

Should be an interesting perspective.

 

[foxbat]

If you did not have such a diplomatic influence in the world, things would most likely have been different.

and if your aunt had a mustache, she would have been your uncle.. Are you so short of real arguments that all you have is hypotheticals ?

 

[IND151]

There is no point.

Succeeding generations of Pakistani apologists have embellished the actual events of 1965, for instance, to the point that some idiots among them think that they won. They are not aware of

1. The fiasco of the original Operation Gibraltar, where Pakistani SSG troops trained by General Meetha were slaughtered to a man, and the consequent fighting took Indian troops into the Haji Pir Pass;
2. The even greater fiasco of the opening moves of Operation Grand Slam, where Ayub got the Divisional commander of 12 Division replaced by Yahya Khan in mid battle, leading to the loss of momentum, and the opportunity for General Harbaksh Singh to reinforce the soft spot in the Indian defences;

I didn't know this. thanks

3. The penetration of 3 Jat to Batapur, and their withdrawal due to orders from division level;
4. The true story behind the stopping of 1 Armoured Div at Gadgor, and how General K. K. Singh snatched defeat from the jaws of victory;
5. The smashing of Pakistani armour at Asal Uttar.

It was largely the staving off by 23 Cavalry of the 1 Armoured Div that cheers up Pakistani analysts of the war. Nothing else in their performance was creditable.

As a result, they snatch at straws like Shastri's untimely death to make some convoluted point. What they mean I have never been able to understand, but they also ignore the evidence of their own military annals, for instance, the trenchant criticism by Major A. H. Amin, and fall back on myths of their own concoction. Some myths are that the Indian Army ran out of ammo.; only 35% had been consumed, while in contrast, Pakistani supplies were abysmally low, but a conservative Chief of Staff insisted that the Indian political leadership should seize the gains, and capitalize on the victory at Asal Uttar, and allow the Russians to make peace.

It is the same dreary story with Kargil.

We are given different explanations for why the hare-brained scheme was floated, we are told that it was a masterstroke betrayed by their own political leadership, ignoring the clear evidence that their military leaders themselves had gone to Nawaz Sharif asking for a relieving of the pressure. We are never given any explanation for the steadfast denial of the purely military provenance of the occupying forces, initially claimed to be mujahedin, and only grudgingly acknowledged to be NLI, slaughtered to make a bid for fame by the military leadership. Finally, this nonsense about the peaks that were taken back or not taken back. As if one peak made a difference, when the entire line was vacated, and as if this one peak allows them to claim victory.

There is no point in arguing with those who evade facts, and place hypothetical possibilities in front of the facts as given events.

That is what you friend is doing, and he has no objective in view other than the laudable one of salvaging some remnants of pride from a dismal record of failure for over 60 years.

We are given different explanations for why the hare-brained scheme was floated, we are told that it was a masterstroke betrayed by their own political leadership, ignoring the clear evidence that their military leaders themselves had gone to Nawaz Sharif asking for a relieving of the pressure.

I already asked some pak members accusing political leadership in 1999 that how it was possible for Nawaz Sharif to take such decision without consent of PA top brass. no one has given answer to to that question

 

[foxbat]

There is no point.

Succeeding generations of Pakistani apologists have embellished the actual events of 1965, for instance, to the point that some idiots among them think that they won. They are not aware of

1. The fiasco of the original Operation Gibraltar, where Pakistani SSG troops trained by General Meetha were slaughtered to a man, and the consequent fighting took Indian troops into the Haji Pir Pass;
2. The even greater fiasco of the opening moves of Operation Grand Slam, where Ayub got the Divisional commander of 12 Division replaced by Yahya Khan in mid battle, leading to the loss of momentum, and the opportunity for General Harbaksh Singh to reinforce the soft spot in the Indian defences;
3. The penetration of 3 Jat to Batapur, and their withdrawal due to orders from division level;
4. The true story behind the stopping of 1 Armoured Div at Gadgor, and how General K. K. Singh snatched defeat from the jaws of victory;
5. The smashing of Pakistani armour at Asal Uttar.

It was largely the staving off by 23 Cavalry of the 1 Armoured Div that cheers up Pakistani analysts of the war. Nothing else in their performance was creditable.

As a result, they snatch at straws like Shastri's untimely death to make some convoluted point. What they mean I have never been able to understand, but they also ignore the evidence of their own military annals, for instance, the trenchant criticism by Major A. H. Amin, and fall back on myths of their own concoction. Some myths are that the Indian Army ran out of ammo.; only 35% had been consumed, while in contrast, Pakistani supplies were abysmally low, but a conservative Chief of Staff insisted that the Indian political leadership should seize the gains, and capitalize on the victory at Asal Uttar, and allow the Russians to make peace.

It is the same dreary story with Kargil.

We are given different explanations for why the hare-brained scheme was floated, we are told that it was a masterstroke betrayed by their own political leadership, ignoring the clear evidence that their military leaders themselves had gone to Nawaz Sharif asking for a relieving of the pressure. We are never given any explanation for the steadfast denial of the purely military provenance of the occupying forces, initially claimed to be mujahedin, and only grudgingly acknowledged to be NLI, slaughtered to make a bid for fame by the military leadership. Finally, this nonsense about the peaks that were taken back or not taken back. As if one peak made a difference, when the entire line was vacated, and as if this one peak allows them to claim victory.

There is no point in arguing with those who evade facts, and place hypothetical possibilities in front of the facts as given events.

That is what you friend is doing, and he has no objective in view other than the laudable one of salvaging some remnants of pride from a dismal record of failure for over 60 years.

Ouch !!!!

 

[Bang Galore]

I already asked some pak members accusing political leadership in 1999 that how it was possible for Nawaz Sharif to take such decision without consent of PA top brass. no one has given answer to to that question

It seems that some are so desperate to believe anything that they fail to see the complete lack of logic in asserting that the PA dutifully followed their political masters & converted "victory" to defeat but yet when the same political masters wanted to change the CoAS, the PA did a coup. According to these chaps, the kursi of an individual is more important than the "victory" for a nation.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

There is no point.

Succeeding generations of Pakistani apologists have embellished the actual events of 1965, for instance, to the point that some idiots among them think that they won. They are not aware of

1. The fiasco of the original Operation Gibraltar, where Pakistani SSG troops trained by General Meetha were slaughtered to a man, and the consequent fighting took Indian troops into the Haji Pir Pass;
2. The even greater fiasco of the opening moves of Operation Grand Slam, where Ayub got the Divisional commander of 12 Division replaced by Yahya Khan in mid battle, leading to the loss of momentum, and the opportunity for General Harbaksh Singh to reinforce the soft spot in the Indian defences;
3. The penetration of 3 Jat to Batapur, and their withdrawal due to orders from division level;
4. The true story behind the stopping of 1 Armoured Div at Gadgor, and how General K. K. Singh snatched defeat from the jaws of victory;
5. The smashing of Pakistani armour at Asal Uttar.

It was largely the staving off by 23 Cavalry of the 1 Armoured Div that cheers up Pakistani analysts of the war. Nothing else in their performance was creditable.

As a result, they snatch at straws like Shastri's untimely death to make some convoluted point. What they mean I have never been able to understand, but they also ignore the evidence of their own military annals, for instance, the trenchant criticism by Major A. H. Amin, and fall back on myths of their own concoction. Some myths are that the Indian Army ran out of ammo.; only 35% had been consumed, while in contrast, Pakistani supplies were abysmally low, but a conservative Chief of Staff insisted that the Indian political leadership should seize the gains, and capitalize on the victory at Asal Uttar, and allow the Russians to make peace.

It is the same dreary story with Kargil.

We are given different explanations for why the hare-brained scheme was floated, we are told that it was a masterstroke betrayed by their own political leadership, ignoring the clear evidence that their military leaders themselves had gone to Nawaz Sharif asking for a relieving of the pressure. We are never given any explanation for the steadfast denial of the purely military provenance of the occupying forces, initially claimed to be mujahedin, and only grudgingly acknowledged to be NLI, slaughtered to make a bid for fame by the military leadership. Finally, this nonsense about the peaks that were taken back or not taken back. As if one peak made a difference, when the entire line was vacated, and as if this one peak allows them to claim victory.

There is no point in arguing with those who evade facts, and place hypothetical possibilities in front of the facts as given events.

That is what you friend is doing, and he has no objective in view other than the laudable one of salvaging some remnants of pride from a dismal record of failure for over 60 years.

@Joe Shearer;
Joe, its nowhere near as bad as that......
Over six decades, the PA has frequently and unrelentingly fought successsive Governments of Pakistan and Pakistani elected leaders. AND NEVER LOST A SINGLE TIME !
Now is'nt that an enviable Combat Record!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer;
Joe, its nowhere near as bad as that......
Over six decades, the PA has frequently and unrelentingly fought successsive Governments of Pakistan and Pakistani elected leaders. AND NEVER LOST A SINGLE TIME !
Now is'nt that an enviable Combat Record!!

Sorry. That is indeed a glorious and unsullied record. Nobody can take that away from them.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Sorry. That is indeed a glorious and unsullied record. Nobody can take that away from them.

Unfortunately, I never made it past 4 rings on my sleeve. If I did then I'd have liked to be a Gernail of such an Army.
That would be a story to tell all my "great-great-grandkids": of "Hard Beds and Soft Battles",

@Joe Shearer; I think you are trying to convince some guys here who fervently believe in "The Tooth Fairy".......................that she does'nt exist.

 

[Windjammer]

The internet warriors can satisfy their tiny egos amongst them selves oblivious of the fact how international military observers see their own mighty warriors.....any wonder the IA is plagued by such high suicide rate.

There is no question about the courage of members of the Indian armed forces, but they are badly-equipped, have no support from government save when political points can be scored, and are not prepared for war, either tactically or in its higher direction. The army is as desperately short of 'teeth arms' officers as the air force is short of pilots. Senior officers seem to devote an inordinate amount of time seeking legal redress for alleged injustices, and there are over 1,000 cases waiting resolution, which is not a sign of a contented defence force--and a discontented defence force is unlikely to be an efficient one. Further, the services have to put up with unworkable equipment and systems foisted upon them by a defence research organisation that is an international joke. (This is slightly disconcerting when one considers that it is these people who are responsible for developing nuclear weapons systems.)

 

[ares]

If only you had the sense to understand that no other force would have actual figures of loss of life in Kargil other then Indian Army. And since Indian Army has not released the info, nobody would really know. The simplest of things to ponder is, why did India get so desperate so as to order coffins all the way from the US.

Perhaps the concept would be hard for you to grasp, but in a civilized democracy, army works for the respective govt...what army knows, the govt. knows.

Now if a govt. institution declares a certain information about armed forces casualties on its official website, rest assured the figure would be coming from armed forces itself.

In addition to that, It has been 15yrs since Kargil war.. different sources in Pakistan quote, Pakistani army casualty figures ranging from two seventy to four thousand. There has never such discrepancies in Indian casualty figures, which have been 527 thorough out.
Unlike Pakistan never before have these figures been doubted.

 

[ares]

Ignoring the significance of the peak we still hold, can you by any means answer why India with all her military might was unable to retake that peak? It does tell us wonders of what really enabled Indian Military to retake the other peaks........answer: retreat of Pakistani fighters due to political reason.

There are certain facts you should know about point 5353.

1. LOC runs over Point 5353, Indian troops never occupied point 5353.

2.The was a normal practice when the line goes over a peak, then nobody occupies it.

3.However Pakistan broke this unwritten rule.

4.Lesser known fact about Kargil, in retaliation point to 5353, Indian troops have occupied two peaks( 4875 and 4251) which are firmly on Pakistani side of LOC.

5.In August 1999, both sides agreed to move back to pre- Kargil positions and both side withdrew their troops from point 5353 , 5240(Indian peaks occupied by Pakistan) and 4875 and 4251(Pakistani peaks occupied by India).

6. In October 1999, Indian troops moved to point 5240(an Indian peak)..Pakistan saw this as breach of agreement and moved back to point 5353 and consolidated its position.

7.Thereafter, as it would taken a major attack(use of heavy artillery and perhaps also airforce) to vacate the peak, might have lead to resumption of full scale hostilities,the peak was not pursued.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The internet warriors can satisfy their tiny egos amongst them selves oblivious of the fact how international military observers see their own mighty warriors.....any wonder the IA is plagued by such high suicide rate.

Loll Whindy; again you bring BeeCluff a "paid journalist" here to push some fairy-tales. BeeCluff was paid to write by the PA to write its history. Later he was "employed" as a consultant by the Pakistani Govt. to help drum up tourists to the NW. Even that project went up in smoke unfortunately.
No wonder you conveniently avoided either providing a link or attribution!

 

[Mav3rick]

that's a big big lie, which only ignorant fools can continue to believe, good luck with that.

Why do you consider it a lie?

yes you can choose to fight continuously, truth is pak army is not capable of taking back the Kashmir by force.. pak economy can't support pak army to keep up with Indian army's modernization race, so power and endurance both favours Indian army. do you agree ?
second option is a diplomatic pressure and media campaign and bring back UN and other international powers to Kashmir and force India to do a plebiscite on entire undivided Kashmir.
UN clearly said if only both parties ask for help then only they will intervene, so will be other powers. on media and diplomatic front India weigh more than Pakistan, do you agree ?
only option remaining and still continuing is support cross border terrorism, unfortunately for Pakistan it has done much damage to Pakistan than to India..India is quiet capable of continuing this game today, in fact we are much more capable and prepared than we were before, do you agree ?

I agree with the first part as it is the most likely outcome, however, neither is vice versa possible, do you agree?

Second option has been tried on many occasions, I believe. However, even that is not reasonably expected to work as India is much better at diplomacy then Pakistan ever was. Furthermore, you continue to put blame of terrorism in India on Pakistan where as it is a fact that most of the unrest in Pakistan has Indian involvement. This tit-for-tat has to stop and since Pakistan has not meddled in Jammu Kashmir for a long long time, it is only fair that India follow suit in Baluchistan and with TTP.

only settlement I am seeing is converting LOC into border with minor give and take, the sooner you do it, the better for Pakistan from a bargaining point of view because of growing disparity between two countries.

Musharraf & Vajpayee were almost there, too bad we couldn't go all the way. But that is the only viable solution, I agree. Unless the Kashmiris have a problem with it, and if so then both the countries should withdraw forces from Kashmir and let Karshmir be.

It is interesting to see that this is how history is recalled. I am sure both sides are biased; so what neutral sources do you have to buttress these claims?

As far as I know, claims and counterclaims by the two belligerents aside, the vast majority of neutral reports at least placed India as the one holding the advantage, if not the victor.

Should be an interesting perspective.

India refused neutral arbitration, all we have is what 'neutral' analysts assumed. And yes, you are correct that vast majority of neutral sources (especially on wikipedia) placed India better.

and if your aunt had a mustache, she would have been your uncle.. Are you so short of real arguments that all you have is hypotheticals ?

So you ignored all the facts of my post and decided to quote me out of context. It is quite evident who is 'short' of a lot of things.

 

[Mav3rick]

There are certain facts you should know about point 5353.

1. LOC runs over Point 5353, Indian troops never occupied point 5353.

2.The was a normal practice when the line goes over a peak, then nobody occupies it.

3.However Pakistan broke this unwritten rule.

4.Lesser known fact about Kargil, in retaliation point to 5353, Indian troops have occupied two peaks( 4875 and 4251) which are firmly on Pakistani side of LOC.

5.In August 1999, both sides agreed to move back to pre- Kargil positions and both side withdrew their troops from point 5353 , 5240(Indian peaks occupied by Pakistan) and 4875 and 4251(Pakistani peaks occupied by India).

6. In October 1999, Indian troops moved to point 5240(an Indian peak)..Pakistan saw this as breach of agreement and moved back to point 5353 and consolidated its position.

7.Thereafter, as it would taken a major attack(use of heavy artillery and perhaps also airforce) to vacate the peak, might have lead to resumption of full scale hostilities,the peak was not pursued.

1. Not really, Point 5353 was under Indian occupation and was within Indian territory. There were dug-in bunkers there that were established by Indian Army.

2. I know. Kind of like in Siachin!

3. I know, kind of like India did in Siachin.

4. Indian troops could not occupy their own peaks let alone think of occupying Pakistani peaks. Indian Military could not dare move an inch across the Loc or anywhere along the border!

And most importantly, how committed was Pakistan in Kargil??

Perhaps the concept would be hard for you to grasp, but in a civilized democracy, army works for the respective govt...what army knows, the govt. knows.

Now if a govt. institution declares a certain information about armed forces casualties on its official website, rest assured the figure would be coming from armed forces itself.

In addition to that, It has been 15yrs since Kargil war.. different sources in Pakistan quote, Pakistani army casualty figures ranging from two seventy to four thousand. There has never such discrepancies in Indian casualty figures, which have been 527 thorough out.
Unlike Pakistan never before have these figures been doubted.

You do realize that Indian Army has been involved in many things considered conduct unbecoming of military? From selling off military weapons to terrorists to Samjhota Express to staged dramas of bravado and heroism to award of highest posthumous award to a live soldier etc.

Please, spare us the bullshit!!

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Why do you consider it a lie?

because many sources includig gen aziz revealed it,all you have as source is mushy himself,besides it was planned and exicuted by your army generals and arms, used were also from army, any way either way it made little differance.

I agree with the first part as it is the most likely outcome, however, neither is vice versa possible, do you agree?

partially,india is capable to retake the other part if desperat, but we are not ready to pay a high price for that, we choose to be happy with what we have while pak is neither capable to aulter the boundary nor are happy with curant statues, thats the differance.

you continue to put blame of terrorism in India on Pakistan where as it is a fact that most of the unrest in Pakistan has Indian involvement

.
i disagree,no real evidane to convince UN or west.

This tit-for-tat has to stop and since Pakistan has not meddled in Jammu Kashmir for a long long time,

terrorism has not been stopped, yes it decreased due to situations in both countries,how ever it is still too early to assert whether its bcoz of changed intention or lack of capacity .

Musharraf & Vajpayee were almost there, too bad we couldn't go all the way. But that is the only viable solution, I agree. Unless the Kashmiris have a problem with it, and if so then both the countries should withdraw forces from Kashmir and let Karshmir be.

only practcal solution i see is LOC as IB