Diriliş Ertuğrul: Turkish views needed

[Indus Pakistan]

It is, and will, ignite a pan Islamist, expansionist concept in many people; and I have seen this, people in the comments section going about how borders should be erased, and the caliphate should be brought back. This is contrary to the idea of a country, how can Pakistan exist if you support a single government setup for all Muslims.

A very, very valid point you raise and I would entirely concur with you. It's very simple. Nationalism and pan-Islamism contradict each other. The first one empasises and places the nation state at the alter which in our case id Pakistan. With it you are required to place your loyalty to the Pakistani state. Pan Islamism however places your loyalities beyond Pakistan and with the wider Muslim world. Your required to think and advance the global Muslim community and not Pakistan;s. If and often the interests of both collide you are required to go against Pakistan and stand by the global Muslim order. Groups like Al Qaida, Muslim brotherhood, Taliban Tehreek Pakistan and others aspire to or support a global Muslim order and regard states like Pakistan as artificial constructs that come in the way of establishing a global ummah.

Within Pakistan already the single biggest problem the country has is a very weak sense of nationalism. We may have country but we have no pride or identity going as Pakistan or Pakistani. You can even see here on this thread to quote -

Desi Dramas

where the moderator cannot come to say Pakistan dramas. Our food is desi, our culture Muslim, our clothing Indian, our celebrations Asian. We are everything but Pakistani. This malaise is the cause of Pakistan having almost no identity. It is like our people are orphans with no roots. They search for their ancestry in Turkey, Arabia, India anything but their own land. This Turkish series is great and it is far better that Pakistani's watch this then Indian garbage. However the concern here is as you point out that our orphan people will see Ertugrul to build up a dream which does not exist. Turks are a uber-nationalist, indeed probably the most nationalist people I have ever met. Which is good thing. I am jealous and it is what makes Turkey the strongest Muslim country on earth that the west and east treats with grudging respect.

However the reality is Turks are uber-nationalists and opposite of pan-islamists. In addition they are secular and treat religion lightly. During ramadan for example restaurents are open, bars are open, alcohol is being consumed openly, scantly clad women walking in open relationships. All this is no big deal to me but for most Pakistani's lapping up Ertrgul and dreamig caliphates this would come as a shock.

 

[jaibi]

I think the biggest problem is the education system of the world actually because you've nit-picked my comment to prove your ideology as you cannot do it on your own based on actual arguments. Sad. It may be because of other reasons rather than anything nefarious so I won't comment on it further and hope you get the exposure you deserve.

Moreover, it's people like you because of whom majority of our members don't want any position here. My status on the site doesn't mean I stop being a person and have my own opinion. I talked about 'saas-bahu' soap operas as I clearly stated but clearly you won't be reading what's written rather than read your own thoughts into it. Either it's a lack of exposure or malintent, it's up to readers to decide.

Within Pakistan already the single biggest problem the country has is a very weak sense of nationalism. We may have country but we have no pride or identity going as Pakistan or Pakistani. You can even see here on this thread to quote -



where the moderator cannot come to say Pakistan dramas. Our food is desi, our culture Muslim, our clothing Indian, our celebrations Asian. We are everything but Pakistani. This malaise is the cause of Pakistan having almost no identity. It is like our people are orphans with no roots. They search for their ancestry in Turkey, Arabia, India anything but their own land. This Turkish series is great and it is far better that Pakistani's watch this then Indian garbage. However the concern here is as you point out that our orphan people will see Ertugrul to build up a dream which does not exist. Turks are a uber-nationalist, indeed probably the most nationalist people I have ever met. Which is good thing. I am jealous and it is what makes Turkey the strongest Muslim country on earth that the west and east treats with grudging respect.

However the reality is Turks are uber-nationalists and opposite of pan-islamists. In addition they are secular and treat religion lightly. During ramadan for example restaurents are open, bars are open, alcohol is being consumed openly, scantly clad women walking in open relationships. All this is no big deal to me but for most Pakistani's lapping up Ertrgul and dreamig caliphates this would come as a shock.

For anyone interested in knowing what I actually said, please read the original posts in their actual context:

It's a show, mate, I think it should be enjoyed as such and, personally, I think HumTV and ARY Digital and the ilk need to take some notes and move away from the typical garbage on the television right now. It's so annoying that it's not even funny now.

Much of history itself is biased, even if your views are true, how many people knew of the story happening in the show? Once they finish it, they can read up on it too. Those who're just watching it for entertainment would move on to watch some saas-bahu crap on Hum TV. (yeah, I don't like the entertainment we have)

Our people are already not willing to explore other forms of entertainment. If they're watching something other than Desi Dramas, I'd welcome it. In my view, the historicisity of the show is far removed from people's minds. Those who are conservative would read that conservatism into any and everything that they see and vice versa. Even if it was being very stringently accurate. So, don't really think it'd be a problem.

And, please, don't nitpick because it's annoying at least !

Happy foruming!

 

[M. Sarmad]

A very, very valid point you raise and I would entirely concur with you. It's very simple. Nationalism and pan-Islamism contradict each other....

In Pakistan's case, No, they don't ... Pakistani nationalist ideology is very unique, and for the Pakistani Muslims, Pakistani Nationalism and Islam are not mutually exclusive .. Two Nation Theory had both ingredients; Pan-Islamic and Nationalist.

Have discussed it in detail with @Alternatiiv before as well:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/what-does-are-you-a-muslim-first-or-mean.610039/page-2#post-11311636

 

[bsruzm]

Banned in KSA and UAE, must be good.

 

[Pakistansdefender]

So, lately this series called Diriliş Ertuğrul has taken off really fast in Pakistan, and I mean really fast, thanks to the Government and what I would assert as pan expansionist ideals of people.

It has quickly crossed 15 million views on a single video, which is a lot; and so naturally a lot threads have been up about it... however, our Turkish members here have chosen not to comment on, or share their opinion, barely if so.

So, I talked with some Turkish people, and got to know their opinion. Here's what I got to know.

1. That the series is not at all historically accurate, and that is because there are very, very little to non existent sources on Ertuğrul, so most of the stuff is just made up, we don't know his religious views, or philosophy.
   
2. The series is being used as a political tool by the 'ruling party' and for conservatives. They said that whenever there is a certain political atmosphere, the next episode will subtly address it here and there in their favor.
3. It's not Turkish history, rather religious propaganda. If you want to feed false history as long as it's Islamic propaganda, then this is good for it.

Are these things true? What's your take on the series, I think it's good if you guys share your view because that's sort of an insider view which is more eye opening.

Ofcourse, other views are welcome.

@MMM-E @dBSPL @CAN_TR
Pretty irrelevant topic for Turks right now but a comment would be nice.

Their conservators are

A very, very valid point you raise and I would entirely concur with you. It's very simple. Nationalism and pan-Islamism contradict each other. The first one empasises and places the nation state at the alter which in our case id Pakistan. With it you are required to place your loyalty to the Pakistani state. Pan Islamism however places your loyalities beyond Pakistan and with the wider Muslim world. Your required to think and advance the global Muslim community and not Pakistan;s. If and often the interests of both collide you are required to go against Pakistan and stand by the global Muslim order. Groups like Al Qaida, Muslim brotherhood, Taliban Tehreek Pakistan and others aspire to or support a global Muslim order and regard states like Pakistan as artificial constructs that come in the way of establishing a global ummah.

Within Pakistan already the single biggest problem the country has is a very weak sense of nationalism. We may have country but we have no pride or identity going as Pakistan or Pakistani. You can even see here on this thread to quote -



where the moderator cannot come to say Pakistan dramas. Our food is desi, our culture Muslim, our clothing Indian, our celebrations Asian. We are everything but Pakistani. This malaise is the cause of Pakistan having almost no identity. It is like our people are orphans with no roots. They search for their ancestry in Turkey, Arabia, India anything but their own land. This Turkish series is great and it is far better that Pakistani's watch this then Indian garbage. However the concern here is as you point out that our orphan people will see Ertugrul to build up a dream which does not exist. Turks are a uber-nationalist, indeed probably the most nationalist people I have ever met. Which is good thing. I am jealous and it is what makes Turkey the strongest Muslim country on earth that the west and east treats with grudging respect.

However the reality is Turks are uber-nationalists and opposite of pan-islamists. In addition they are secular and treat religion lightly. During ramadan for example restaurents are open, bars are open, alcohol is being consumed openly, scantly clad women walking in open relationships. All this is no big deal to me but for most Pakistani's lapping up Ertrgul and dreamig caliphates this would come as a shock.

It is nothing but a very beautifully made drama. Pakistan being very bored from dramas that only shows 'talaq, saas, bahu, weeping women, tezaab throwing, dowry issues, wedding, cousin wedding, no children, jealousy', are taken by this new piece of fresh air. It is fighting, romance, good acting, excellent sets and also modest. Specially characters which are quite famous among our religious circles.
The best this drama would do is that people would force Pakistan industry to produce something good. Not the crap they produce and pakistanis sees it because they have no other option.
Now they have.
Drama is a drama. It's not a mystery. Pakistanis loved it why? Because it is very tastefully made. That's it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistani Nationalism and Islam are not mutually exclusive .. Two Nation Theory had both ingredients; Pan-Islamic and Nationalist.

They are. Trying to shoehorn a global faith within confines of boundaries of a nation state is impossible. As of right now 2 NT has mutated to 3 NT.

What is so Pan-Islamic about a Christian citizen being able to live in Islamabad but a Muslim [from say Tunisia] being thrown out as illegal?

Ps. Pakistani citizenship is NOT premised on being a Muslim but on being born within the geographic borders and nativity.

 

[M. Sarmad]

They are. Trying to shoehorn a global faith within confines of boundaries of a nation state is impossible. As of right now 2 NT has mutated to 3 NT.

What is so Pan-Islamic about a Christian citizen being able to live in Islamabad but a Muslim [from say Tunisia] being thrown out as illegal?

Ps. Pakistani citizenship is NOT premised on being a Muslim but on being born within the geographic borders and nativity.

2 NT in the Indian subcontinent is as valid today as it was during the British Raj; Hindus and Muslims have failed to coalesce into a single nation in any of the British Raj successor states.

Pakistaniyat originally was/is characterised by a highly idiosyncratic ideology favouring a Pan-Islamic model shaped by the then-prevailing geographical boundaries and political realities ... That Baluchistan, Bengal and Kerala were parts of the contiguous British empire in the region and Central Asian Republics and Afghanistan weren't was purely an accident of history/circumstances.

 

[PakFactor]

Well I am watching it and it teaches me that like then today the enemies of the state are certainly external player but the real enemies are within. Additionally its shows that have faith in Allah and do the right thing no matter what. Its showing me trust no one even your wife may be working against you when it come to the state. And power hungry people are everywhere. There is no swearing abusing. There is no alcohol there is no fornication. I am good with it. I am surprised you are having issues even through it's not factually 100 % correct

Very true, I think Imran Khan wants people to basically realize what you said, external and internal traitors who will damage the state due to personal material gains. These sort of people never have the interests of people at heart.

 

[Trango Towers]

Very true, I think Imran Khan wants people to basically realize what you said, external and internal traitors who will damage the state due to personal material gains. These sort of people never have the interests of people at heart.

my experience in life is halal is halal nad lasts as it has firm foundation. haram never lasts and you are humiliated in this world and the next. If IK vision is to wake the people he is doing a decent job through this series

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Wish it were shorter : ) however hundreds of episodes, and hours each episode is scary.

This is my one critique of the show, it takes way too long. Every episode ends in a cliff-hanger, and the most entertaining parts of the show are when Ertugrul is having the most difficult time. Good times in comparison are a bit boring.

The constant cutting between stories and characters also becomes infuriating. For this reason I like Yunus Emre's style better. It is more focused, but can also drag sometimes.

5 seasons could honestly have been cut to 2-3, it would have made it better. It is a good lesson for anyone who wishes to create a similar historical lesson, to fix the mistakes.

However, they have really outdone themselves. To create a show, which is totally divorced of Western influence and Western tropes, in the time in which we are living. Amazing, really.

Actually as @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan have said, Ertuğrul and the first Ottoman Padishahs until Mehmed II had strong emphasises of Sufis, read about Ahilik and Sheikh Edebali if you want to and I think it's very well written into the show...

I will have to do more research on this. I have read some of Bediuzzaman Said Nursi and Mehmet Akif Ersoy.

Turkish Sufism is very close to the Pakistani variety.

Good points brother.
Bollywood, StarPlus is watched by nearly every family but nobody fears Indian culture entering our homes, Bollywood music is played everywhere. Hollywood is also watched by many but no complaints, infact people love to follow them and talk about the experience. We even copy how they live in terms of dress, thinking etc.

We should be happy that we have Ertugrul series which talks about Islamic values, culture, Adab, Islam, Jihad, Love, rights of non Muslims etc. It is also very similar to Pakistani culture and way of life, it's our Islamic History.

This series has gone viral in Pakistan and with the coronavirus most people are free from daily life, so many people are watching it. Unbelievable.

Allama Iqbal views on Muslim ummah and unity:

Emphasizing the concept of Brotherhood of Islam, he regretted in Jawab-e-Shikwa: the Prophet of all Musalmans is the same, Din is the same, Iman is the same, Kaba is the same, Allah is the same, Qur’an is the same, is it difficult for the Muslims to be united; there is Firkabundi, different groups and tribes and nations. Is this the way for the Musalmans to progress and become powerful?

The foundation of the Islamic concept of nationalism is constituted by the philosophy of Tauwhid, teachings of Al-Qur’an and the Prophet (Peace be upon Him). In Bang-e-Dara he says that this centre is in Medina. He urged the Muslims to break the idols of nationalism and to be absorbed in Islamic Millat. There is no Irani, Turani and Afghani within the concept of Islam. He further stated that mankind created by Allah is one, but human greed and desire for power have divided them into different groups. In his poem Tulu-e-Islam in Bang-e-Dara, Iqbal called the Muslims to become the messengers of Brotherhood of men which is the message of Islam. In that case all the difference of Hindi, Khorasani, Afghani and Turani will disappear. In Tarana-e-Milli he projects the concept of universalism and the wide vision of a Muslim. “Chin o Arab Hamara Hindustan hamara, Muslim Hain Ham, Watan Hai Sara Jahan Hamara.” China is ours, Arabia is ours, Hindustan is ours, I am Muslim and the whole world is the homeland of ours.” Iqbal rejected the Western idea of the fatherland as the basis of modern political nationalism. In his verses in The Mysteries of Selflessness, it is said “Our essence is not bound to any place, the vigour of our wine is not contained in any bowl, Chinese and Indian alike, the shard that constitutes our jar Turkish and Syrian alike, the clay forming our body; neither is our heart of India, or Syria or Rome nor any fatherland do we profess except Islam.”

Remember guys, just because we talk about Muslim unity, one Ummah etc does not mean Islam is against different countries. In Islam there has always been Makka, Medina, Jerusalem, Shaam, Yemen, Iraq, Kufa etc. Nobody called this haram or nationalism. The problem is when racism and discrimination comes to play. That you will not unite with other Muslims or will not care about their sufferings.

The Muslim countries need to work together to make a Block of Muslim countries. Make a block of Muslim military. Be united against aggression.
If we can have a parliament in the European Union or UN then why not have one for the Muslim countries.

Thanks brother for your thoughts. Allama Iqbal was really something else. There is so much depth of knowledge, but we Pakistanis have grown so distant from his works.

 

[Fawad alam]

You can consider this series as a Turkish version of Naseem Hijazi's Novel.
I love this series

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I think the biggest problem is the education system of the world actually because you've nit-picked my comment to prove your ideology as you cannot do it on your own based on actual arguments. Sad. It may be because of other reasons rather than anything nefarious so I won't comment on it further and hope you get the exposure you deserve.

Moreover, it's people like you because of whom majority of our members don't want any position here. My status on the site doesn't mean I stop being a person and have my own opinion. I talked about 'saas-bahu' soap operas as I clearly stated but clearly you won't be reading what's written rather than read your own thoughts into it. Either it's a lack of exposure or malintent, it's up to readers to decide.


For anyone interested in knowing what I actually said, please read the original posts in their actual context:







And, please, don't nitpick because it's annoying at least !

Happy foruming!

Ertugrul promotes positive nationalism and a strong loyalty to the Islamic cause. We see here how he always puts his nation, family, and religion before anything else.

In Pakistani dramas of today, the family system is portrayed as backwards, the father is oppressive and has hidden affairs, the mother/aunties (mother in law esp) creates drama and kicks people out of her home, the son is evil/wicked person who cheats, the poor innocent girl (daughter in law) suffers because of all.

The lesson portrayed here is that the girl would be better off somewhere else, this feminist and liberal toxic outlook corrupts people's thinking.

Turkish dramas like Ertugrul focus on loyalty above all else, even when your own family abandons you or does not understand.

Very true, I think Imran Khan wants people to basically realize what you said, external and internal traitors who will damage the state due to personal material gains. These sort of people never have the interests of people at heart.

The biggest lesson of Ertugrul is that the greatest enemies to the Islamic nation (Turkish nation included) are the enemies from within who connive with known foreign enemies.

This was the case even with the Prophet saws, when the munafiqoon of Madina and the Yahood made secret alliances with Makkan kuffar to backstab Muslims, while outwardly professing loyalty.

We Pakistanis already understand this lesson, but right now lack the courage to do anything about it.

If some serials like Ertugrul could instill some confidence in our people to do what is necessary, it can only benefit us.

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

In Pakistani dramas of today, the family system is portrayed as backwards, the father is oppressive and has hidden affairs, the mother/aunties (mother in law esp) creates drama and kicks people out of her home, the son is evil/wicked person who cheats, the poor innocent girl (daughter in law) suffers because of all.

What kind of show is that? Damn dude now I understand why you brothers are so desperate for new Ertuğrul episodes

 

[PakFactor]

What kind of show is that? Damn dude now I understand why you brothers are so desperate for new Ertuğrul episodes

lol. This the shit we have to deal with.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

What kind of show is that? Damn dude now I understand why you brothers are so desperate for new Ertuğrul episodes

Yes, we have been cursed by this nonsense for too long...