Despite frantic effort by Lockheed Martin India ditches F-21 for LCA

[Baba_Yaga]

There is no over examination. F-21 was touted as an excellent fighter with 5th gen tech capability. It is a fair question to ask why IAF did not opt for it.

I've already said, it is impossible to justify a $16 billion purchase in times of a global pandemic and economic rout. Besides, F21 didn't have much of a chance to win anyway. We basically ditched Rafale in favor of LCA in line with the current economic situation.

 

[Dalit]

I've already said, it is impossible to justify a $16 billion purchase in times of a global pandemic and economic rout. Besides, F21 didn't have much of a chance to win anyway. We basically ditched Rafale in favor of LCA in line with the current economic situation.

Is it really economics because India claims to have an incredible amount of cash? At least that is the impression we always get during our interaction with most Indian members on PDF. India is able to buy anything and everything at any given moment. Now you are telling us something entirely different.

LCA won't match F-21 and even you know it.

 

[dbc]

India does not have money to spend on imported fighters post COVID after a 266 Billion Dollars in economic stimulus. Indians seem to have their priorities in order.

 

[sputnik]

I don't see how this is a big slap. IAF was heavily biased in favor of the Rafale. If this tender had not been cancelled, I can say with about 80% surety Rafale would have emerged the winner. Basically, they hardly had a chance of winning earlier(and they probably knew it) and obviously now that the tender has been cancelled, it's the same story. Are you suggesting they would have preferred losing to the Rafale rather than the tender being cancelled?



You are over-examining the whole thing. What happened is that some guy somewhere at a bat, resulted in a pandemic and the pandemic situation reduced our budget and now we have no choice but to go for a domestic fighter, simple as that. Govt possibly cant justify spending 16 billion dollars in such times. At the same time, the airforce need is real. The only solution was to go with LCA.

Yeah.. May be that is why we shelved NASM as well. which was just US$1.2 Billion Purchase.
Next in line is harpoons bought for P-8I as well.

MMRCA was big but going to get paid in Trenches only. And why forget India do have money to fund that.
RBI pumped US$ 45 billion just to save Ruppee against US$ from Jan-20 to Apr-20.
Have you heard anything against S-400. which is also more than 5 Billion purchase or even the Subs.
Heck there is wide spread optimism India Buying dis-gruntled Brazilian company Embraer.

These measures are not limited upto the US only. Japan giving Loan to Pakistan is also on cross-heirs .
That is why Japaneses embassy busy with south block to allow their Auto companies to resume production during Lock-down. FYI, Hyundai allowed and currently partially started production.

 

[Dalit]

India does not have money to spend on imported fighters post COVID after a 266 Billion Dollars in economic stimulus. Indians seem to have their priorities in order.

That sounds like a good face saving excuse.

Let's take the Indian word. The Indians claim that LCA is a good fighter. That means they have more trust in LCA than the F-21.

 

[Baba_Yaga]

Is it really economics because India claims to have an incredible amount of cash? At least that is the impression we always get during our interaction with most Indian members on PDF. India is able to buy anyhting and everything.

LCA won't match F-21 and even you know it.

We do have an incredible amount of cash, but only to spend on useful things(economy, food, infrastructure etc). Having cash doesn't mean you neglect the current situation and move on like nothing has happened. Obviously LCA won't match F21, but it's not a big loss. I don't even know what 5th gen tech they talk about. The main 5th gen technology is stealth, and F21 is no more stealthier than the F16.

 

[Dalit]

Yeah.. May be that is why we shelved NASM as well. which was just US$1.2 Billion Purchase.
Next in line is harpoons bought for P-8I as well.

MMRCA was big but going to get paid in Trenches only. And why forget India do have money to fund that.
RBI pumped 45US$ just to save Ruppee against US$ from Jan-20 to Apr-20.
Have you heard anything against S-400. which is also more than 5 Billion purchase or even the Subs.
Heck there is wide spread optimism India Buying dis-gruntled Brazilian company Embraer.

These measures are not limited upto the US only. Japan giving Loan to Pakistan is also on cross-heirs .
That is why Japaneses embassy busy with south block to allow their Auto companies to resume production during Lock-down. FYI, Hyundai allowed and currently partially started production.

Exactly. India has a lot of money to buy other hardware. Even in time of corona pandemic. Those deals are not being cancelled. The money excuse just doesn't add up.

 

[dbc]

Is it really economics because India claims to have an incredible amount of cash? At least that is the impression we always get during our interaction with most Indian members on PDF. India is able to buy anyhting and everything.

LCA won't match F-21 and even you know it.

It isn’t about the superiority or inferiority of the LCA vs F-16s, Rafale, Gripen or the other fighters that India hoped to procure. As I said before India is spending 266 billion $ on economic stimulus-imported fighters is not a priority for them.

 

[sputnik]

India does not have money to spend on imported fighters post COVID after a 266 Billion Dollars in economic stimulus. Indians seem to have their priorities in order.

Yes Sir, certainly we don't have money. That is why we want few of your companies to shift base to India and allow us to grow so that we can buy your pricy weapons.

BTW, very recently FB wants stake in Reliance Jio but wants Jio valued @ 65 Billion only. Reliance declined.
Can I also say the same to you that FB/Americans don't have money

 

[Dalit]

We do have an incredible amount of cash, but only to spend on useful things(economy, food, infrastructure etc). Having cash doesn't mean you neglect the current situation and move on like nothing has happened. Obviously LCA won't match F21, but it's not a big loss. I don't even know what 5th gen tech they talk about. The main 5th gen technology is stealth, and F21 is no more stealthier than the F16.

In other words, the American 5th gen claim is not taken seriously by India. It is very simple. From your words it is easy to conclude that India believes that F-21 is not as good as the Americans have advertised it.

It isn’t about the superiority or inferiority of the LCA vs F-16s, Rafale, Gripen or the other fighters that India hoped to procure. As I said before India is spending 266 billion $ on economic stimulus-imported fighters is not a priority for them.

You keep saying that, but the Indian officials don't say this. The Indians believe that LCA is a good fighter. Probably as good as F-21. It is about comparing the fighters.

 

[Baba_Yaga]

In other words, the American 5th gen claim is not taken seriously by India.

How can it be 5th gen without stealth? You can call it 4++ gen, 4+++++ gen, 5----- gen etc etc , but it is not 5th gen if it is not stealthy. As I have already said before, if there was no pandemic, Dassault would have emerged the winner. IAF was always heavily in favor of Rafale. There might be some superior tech in F21, but personally I do not believe it is any better than the Rafale.

 

[Dalit]

How can it be 5th gen without stealth? You can call it 4++ gen, 4+++++ gen, 5----- gen etc etc , but it is not 5th gen if it is not stealthy. As I have already said before, if there was no pandemic, Dassault would have emerged the winner. IAF was always heavily in favor of Rafale. There might be some 5th gen tech in F21, but personally I do not believe it is any better than the Rafale.

Fair enough. The Indians consider the Rafale to be a better fighter than F-21. I still do believe there is also some level of politics involved in this decision. That is my personal opinion.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Is it a 02/27 effect????

Maybe, they've understood the conventional superiority over Pak is no longer affordable and viable, if not impossible, thanks to the Pak ingenuity/bravery coupled with China/Turkey factors...

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Now actually it would be best for IAF and India to just focus on one or two fighter's..

It would be best if we import additional 36 Rafale fighter in lower cost compare to current one.

Also, just focus on HAL Tejas mk1a and HAL Tejas mark 2.

We would not require to purchase any other fighter aircraft from any other country. Also, need to be plan:

1. Su 30mki ( heavy category) - upgrade with ASEA and missile range between 150-200 km.

2. Rafale fighter : 36 + additional 36

3. HAL Tejas mk1a (light category) from 2023-24 : AESA radar with missile range 150-200 km.

4. Hal Tejas mk2 (medium category) from 2026-27 : AESA radar with missile 150-200 km.

....... I don't count - mig 29 upg, mirage 2000, Jaguar.....

This will be more than enough to protect us from any threat..

Once all done! Then can start work on 5 generation fighter planes..

 

[Dalit]

I believe that IAF made the right choice here. You don't want to become too dependent on US firms for spares etc. I believe that @MastanKhan has analysed the deal the best way possible.