Deadly explosions on Moscow Metro system

[prototype]

When the Russian foreign minister himself airs irresponsible speculative comments dragging in another nation thousands of miles away, why should we hold back on speculating on his motives?

so u concluded that india is acting behind russia's responce,though ur nation as no evidence to claim it just like each and anything happening in pakistan

 

[SekrutYakhni]

you need to understand the implications what lavarov meant was the volatile region in south asia might have some sort of link to it its highly possible it does not try and identify pakistan because for that more time and evidence is needed and moreover i dont think pakistan has anything to do with chechnia other than moral support

but still i did not hear an official statement from pakistani administration condemning the attacks< might be wrong correct me>this part is very sad to see because pakistan has been suffering this menace for long and it needs to support all the nations which are willing to root it out

Ohh yeah!
Pakistan never condemned Moscow attacks!!


What about your government?
How many attacks they condemned?
We are suffering since 9 years..and I don't think I heard many "sympathy voices" from Moscow regarding Pakistan

It is very sad to see that Pakistan is suffering from suicide attacks and nations like Russia are not only sitting quite but are accusing us for their problems...

 

[Vassnti]

This is in no way presented as an excuse for the murder of 39 people in Russia, the murder of innocents is to be condemed. No cause can justify it. However while the cries of the Kremlin are we will wipe these people from the map it perhaps provides some balance to know a little of what life in Chechyna is like.

At 5am on 14 April 2002, an armoured vehicle moved slowly down Soviet Street. A young brown-haired man, covered in blood, his hands and feet bound, stood onboard. The vehicle stopped and the man was pushed off and brought over to a nearby chain-link fence. The car took off and there was a loud bang. The force of the explosion, caused either by a grenade or dynamite, sent the man's head flying into the neighbouring street, called Lenin's Commandments. 'It was difficult to photograph the moment, though I have grown somewhat accustomed to this,' says a petite greying Chechen woman, who has spent years documenting what Russia calls its 'anti-terrorism campaign'.
Blowing people up, dead or alive, she reports, is the latest tactic introduced by the federal army into the conflict. It was utilised perhaps most effectively on 3 July in the village of Meskyer Yurt, where 21 men, women and children were bound together and blown up, their remains thrown into a ditch.

From the perspective of the perpetrators, this method of killing is highly practical; it prevents the number of bodies from being counted, or possibly from ever being found. It has not always succeeded in this respect, however. Since the spring, dogs have been digging up body parts in various corners of Chechnya, sometimes almost daily.

Meanwhile, the more traditional methods endure. On 9 September the bodies of six men from Krasnostepnovskoye were found, naked, with plastic bags wrapped around their heads. In June, a ditch containing 50 mutilated bodies was discovered near the Russian army post in Chankala. The corpses were missing eyes, ears, limbs and genitals. Since February, mass graves have been found near Grozny, Chechen Yurt, Alkhan-Kala and Argun.

For nearly 10 years, since the beginning of the first war in December 1994, the grey-haired woman has been patrolling with her camera. She shows the gruesome images strewn on her table as if they were relics, or photographs from a family album. She runs her hand over the contours of an actual cracked skull, one of about a dozen found in February between Meskyer Yurt and Chechen Yurt.

'The remains were unearthed not long after they died,' she says. 'The tissue was still in good shape. The torn pieces of flesh suggest that the victims were attacked by dogs. It's difficult to know. People don't want to talk. They are scared that they will be next.'

The Society for Russian-Chechen Relations, in collaboration with Human Rights Watch, reports that in the span of a month between 15 July and 15 August this year, 59 civilians were shot dead, 64 were abducted, 168 were seriously wounded and 298 were tortured. Many men simply disappeared after being detained by Russian soldiers or security police; others were shot outright. During an operation in Chechen Aul between 21 May and 11 June, 22 men were killed. The majority were aged 20 to 26; two were 15.

Since Chechen Aul is considered hostile territory, it has undergone 20 such 'mopping-up operations' this year. Usually the raids are conducted by federal armed forces (particularly OMON, the police special forces, and Spetsnaz, its army equivalent) and occur at any time of day or night. Typically a village will be encircled by tanks, armoured vehicles and army trucks, one of which, known as the purification car, is designated for torture. According to Human Rights Watch in New York, torture is a preferred method of gathering intelligence. Cut off and isolated, Russian troops' best hope of discovering guerrilla activity is by grabbing citizens, almost at random, and coercing from them whatever information they might have.

Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya | World news | The Observer

 

[gubbi]

Yes, the authorities, if they seek to claim to be any different than the terrorists, have a moral obligation to target only combatants, and the Russian (and before that Soviet) policy has been to indiscriminately target whoever they please, in multiple theaters of conflict.

Its not indiscriminate. The authorities also have the right or an obligation to the larger population to go for, if you may, 'moral supporters'. IMHO perfectly valid and fair game. Their likes amount for the 'logistics' part for the militants.

And I do believe that a large majority of Pakistanis have unequivocally argued against the sorts of policies you support, of indiscriminately targeting combatants and non-combatants alike, in Pakistan's own war against terrorism.
What about our support? Or my support to be specific since the issue has not really been discussed (not that I have participated in at least) that much on this forum? Have I supported the indiscriminate killing of noncombatants in Sri Lanka? Has Pakistan supported the indiscriminate killing of non-combatants in Sri Lanka?

I was just pointing out the fact that many people supported the SLA's role in suppressing the LTTE while on the other hand openly support the Chechen rebels against the Russian army. Now that is hypocrisy.

But the reason for dredging up 1971 was not to discuss it, but to only point out the hypocrisy of Indians in criticizing the PA for what it did in 1971, while unashamedly supporting similar policies by the Russians, and elsewhere.

I cannot comment about this much, for it was, then, your internal political problem which turned violent, with problems spilling over into our country and India found a perfect opportunity to play games. The rest as they say is history.

 

[gubbi]

When the Russian foreign minister himself airs irresponsible speculative comments dragging in another nation thousands of miles away, why should we hold back on speculating on his motives?

Motives? If they had any motives, instead of making such statements, they can effectively choke Pakistan in some areas if they wanted. RD-93 engines' sales for JF-17 can be just easily blocked. They aint doing that now, are they? So just speculating is not enough.

 

[Parashuram1]

What has beocme of the other disputes ON UN LIST? ---0000--- is the output. Some disputes are not meant to be on UN list. Is Afghanistan and Iraq issue on UN list? But still there are violations of basic human rights.

Yeah.. we care for the world. The world which can see death of 38 INNOCENT CIVILIANS but remains silent on the death of those thousands victimised of a State's terrorism in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir.

KIT Over

So basically you support militancy? It is commonly seen on this forum that members equate one incident with some other totally unrelated issue and then justify terrorism. Sometimes, it makes me wonder whether you actually elected your government or not, because the sample population of members on this forum show a more positive response to militancy in other countries while at the same time cry foul against what is happening in your country.

Militancy is a virus that benefits nobody in the end.

UN is neutral body which many people here don't believe because they want to trust some famous chest-thumping conspiracy theorist and believe him instead. But no matter what you say, UN is here to stay and also decide what goes on around the world including your country.


The problem with most of you here is that you take the religion card and start policing around different countries be it Russia, Israel, United States, Europe, China or India.. this is something you do at your own risk. How do you expect not to pile up enemies if you keep playing the religious police?

This thread is related to terrorist strikes in Russia. How does that have to do anything with either Israel-Palestine, yours and India's and other totally different cases? Again you get blinded by religion.

Unless and until you understand that playing the religion card everywhere around the world is only going to generate more aggression, the loop will keep continuing without any hopes for a peaceful solution... first militants take religion's name and strike countries; in retaliation Armed forces raid and flatten alleged towns and regions that harbour terrorism and the loop continues.

No debates both at international as well as at PDF's level are possible until a lot of members quit their obsession with religion which is more of a personal matter than a national or international matter.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Motives? If they had any motives, instead of making such statements, they can effectively choke Pakistan in some areas if they wanted. RD-93 engines' sales for JF-17 can be just easily blocked. They aint doing that now, are they? So just speculating is not enough.

Not necessarily - that would also involve taking on China.

However, you are correct that if the Russians really believed Pakistan was in any way supporting the Chechens or others, China would find it difficult to prevent a Russian moratorium on all cooperation with Pakistan.

That there are, at the moment, no threats of an end to Russian cooperation with Pakistan implies that the Russian FM's statement was just hot air.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its not indiscriminate. The authorities also have the right or an obligation to the larger population to go for, if you may, 'moral supporters'. IMHO perfectly valid and fair game. Their likes amount for the 'logistics' part for the militants.

We disagree fundamentally then on this. Locals can be willing, unwilling or perhaps unwitting supporters - the whole idea behind guerrilla warfare is to use locals to blend in. You cannot just target them all under the guise of 'locals provide logistics'. Even unwitting locals provide cover and resources in some form or another.

Indiscriminate campaigns, such as those the Russians executed in Afghanistan and Chechnya, result in far too much innocent loss of life to be acceptable in any way, and I am uncertain that it suppresses terrorist attacks in the long run, though it might quell the larger insurgency.

As much as I hate the TTP, I would never support Russian style anti-insurgency campaigns in FATA, nor would most Pakistanis, for whom analogies to East Pakistan lurk around every corner (if you have read the op-eds and commentaries in the Pakistani press on Baluchistan and FATA you'll know what I mean).

I was just pointing out the fact that many people supported the SLA's role in suppressing the LTTE while on the other hand openly support the Chechen rebels against the Russian army. Now that is hypocrisy.

Supporting these terrorists against the Russians would be hypocrisy. That said, the Russians have clouded the situation in terms of themselves losing the higher moral ground through their vicious campaigns that killed so many innocents. No matter how sound the logic in opposing those who committed these bombings, the fact that the Russians have themselves 'terrorized' innocents leaves little sympathy for the Russian State and its institutions, and it is a fine line to tread, condemning both the Russian State and the militants.

I cannot comment about this much, for it was, then, your internal political problem which turned violent, with problems spilling over into our country and India found a perfect opportunity to play games. The rest as they say is history.

The point is that if as an Indian you agree with draconian and barbaric policies, employed by the State, to quell rebellion, then you also accept the fallout of those policies.

You cannot argue, 'oh I support a brutal military crackdown to quell rebellion, but I'll start supporting the rebels and invade you if the people suffering from the crackdown, a crackdown I support, cross the border into my land'.

 

[Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora]

Sad Very Sad!

 

[EjazR]

Unacceptable and heinous acts have been committed and there is no justification for it. First of all innocent civilians are being targeted and women and children have been affected which is against Islamic teachings. If the reports are true, then women were used as suicide bombers which is again UnIslamic.

Some people are justifying that Chechens need "freedom and Independence" from Russia. But how can this be related to Islam or Jihad? Does Russia ban or not provide religious freedom to Muslims. Is it not true that Muslims in Russia can pray in their mosques and observer other religious observances? If yes, then there can be no "Jihad" there. It is the political Islamic ideology that perverts and turns into this misuse of religion for political purposes.


At the same time, wether there is a connection or not to Pakistan should not be taken as meaning the GoP or Pakistani people are involved here. But this just an extension of the military establishment in Pakistan using Jihadi groups as state policy and the unintended consequences. Something, that is suspected even today for Kashmir centric groups. Who knows what the next jump these groups might take.
In Syed Saleems' article (Asia Times Online ), if true, it means that Chechens(along with Uzbeks, Arabs, Pakistanis e.t.c) trained here in the FATA areas may have later moved out through Iran back to Chechenya. But the planning and preparation may well have happened all withing Chechenya or Russia itself.

But the the more important thing is not just hitting the base of operations. But first, curbing the political Islam ideology which Muslims themselves have to own up more strongly including Russian Muslims. This is where the indigenous muslim community in Russia should be taken into confidence instead of marginalizing them or targeting them in the aftermath.

And secondly by stamping out these pseudo-jihadi groups around the world. There were plans in this respect for an International anti-terror co-oepration council first mooted by Saudi Arabia in 2005 where terrorists could be "paralysed" by depriving them of safe havens, finances, training facilities and communications, and the council(consisting of various govts.) would be asked to look into ways and means of doing that. We have to understand that historically these same groups were used as part of the Cold war tactic to hit at the soviet union. And this is the reason why they have such sophistication which they continue to improve upon. But concerted efforts should be taken at the ideological as well as tactical levels.

 

[Moscow]

Are they going to be providing troops to operate with NATO and support NATO policies for Afgahn stabilization, or repeating their past actions of strafing innocent men, women and children in Afghan villages and towns with gunships?

Mixing policies of the Soviet Union and Russian Federation is grossly wrong , imperfect and makes no sense
argument provided is thus baseless and out of context

 

[Moscow]

Yes, the authorities, if they seek to claim to be any different than the terrorists, have a moral obligation to target only combatants, and the Russian (and before that Soviet) policy has been to indiscriminately target whoever they please, in multiple theaters of conflict.

Moral obligation? strange
since pakistan and the authorities have repeatedly said that they have nothing to do with terrorists inside russian territory it a moral obligation for them then not to even give moral support to to voice any of their concerns towards whats happening inside the territory of russia and how russians deal with it
but it is exactly the opposite i find when people talk about the terrorists inside russia



now lets see the point------

come to the nevsky bombings late last year .answer this questions then ....

1> did russia blame pakistan for the incident
ans : NO

2> did russia ask for support from any other country
ans: no

3> what did FSB do?
ans:- hunted down the terrorist in the southern province of ingusethia killed him

4> do anybody of you have any evidence that while killed this terrorist who masterminded the nevsky bombing russia killed scores of locals ?
ans:-- NO nobody even knows about it here <true >

5>what happens after this event ?
ans:- 2 out of the 18 terrorists from his gang comes and blows themselves killing innocents
so the bottom line is these fellows have killed 39 innocents for the death of a terrorist who himself killed scores in the train blast

now isnt it a joke when people try and justify the actions of these terrorists in the name of this and that and whatnot....

there is no justification in any of the claims thats made here supporting the terrorists all of this support only shows the people in poor light

 

[Moscow]

When the Russian foreign minister himself airs irresponsible speculative comments dragging in another nation thousands of miles away, why should we hold back on speculating on his motives?

was any official report sent to pakistani establishment i am sure not
even if pakistan had something to do it it still not the russian mode of action , but people dont understand there is no point sending letters and papers no couuntry will do anthing for you
you have to do it yourself and in FSB we have a competent authority to deal with it adequately

 

[Sino-PakFriendship]

Chechenya is NOT Kosovo

USA, NATO and some Muslim states support Kosovo independence because Serbia is too weak.

But Russia is too strong, China and India (Two population gaints in the World) will support sovereignty integrity of Russia.

Enemy of Muslim is not Russia, China or India, but USA. I doubt that how many Muslim states will support Chechenya.

 

[FireFighter]

Blasts may have Pakistan link: Moscow

The Hindu : News / International : Blasts may have Pakistan link: Moscow

REPORTS THE HINDU