Deadly explosions on Moscow Metro system

[Abu Zolfiqar]

post news, not tabloids and loose prose.....





i.e. please no indian media reports on this subject. For the love of God.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In Syed Saleems' article (Asia Times Online :: Central Asian News and current affairs, Russia, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan), if true, it means that Chechens(along with Uzbeks, Arabs, Pakistanis e.t.c) trained here in the FATA areas may have later moved out through Iran back to Chechenya. But the planning and preparation may well have happened all withing Chechenya or Russia itself.

That is a complete distortion of events. It is the Chechens, Uzbeks and Arabs, with experience fighting in Chechnya, Uzbekistan and Iraq, that acted as trainers and brought suicide bombings, IED's and a few other barbaric means of terrorizing the populace to Pakistan, not the other way around.

The Chechen's may have originally benefited from the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan and the veterans of that war, but that is not something that can be laid at Pakistan's door alone, and of late the Chechen's and Uzbek's have repaid the favor by allying with the TTP and AQ and passing on their own expertise gained while fighting the Russians.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Mixing policies of the Soviet Union and Russian Federation is grossly wrong , imperfect and makes no sense
argument provided is thus baseless and out of context

The Soviet/Russian state has changed little from the days of Stalin's Gulags, through the massacres in Afghanistan, and the killings in Chechnya.

Contemporary Russia may wear the facade of democracy, and the letters may change in the initials of its security agencies, but movement towards respect for human rights remains a distant dream for now in Russia.

The comparison of policies over the years is not inapt.

 

[prithwidw]

Moral obligation? strange
since pakistan and the authorities have repeatedly said that they have nothing to do with terrorists inside russian territory it a moral obligation for them then not to even give moral support to to voice any of their concerns towards whats happening inside the territory of russia and how russians deal with it
but it is exactly the opposite i find when people talk about the terrorists inside russia



now lets see the point------

come to the nevsky bombings late last year .answer this questions then ....

1> did russia blame pakistan for the incident
ans : NO

2> did russia ask for support from any other country
ans: no

3> what did FSB do?
ans:- hunted down the terrorist in the southern province of ingusethia killed him

4> do anybody of you have any evidence that while killed this terrorist who masterminded the nevsky bombing russia killed scores of locals ?
ans:-- NO nobody even knows about it here <true >

5>what happens after this event ?
ans:- 2 out of the 18 terrorists from his gang comes and blows themselves killing innocents
so the bottom line is these fellows have killed 39 innocents for the death of a terrorist who himself killed scores in the train blast

now isnt it a joke when people try and justify the actions of these terrorists in the name of this and that and whatnot....

there is no justification in any of the claims thats made here supporting the terrorists all of this support only shows the people in poor light

Dude you just earned my respect

My heart also goes out to all those killed in Russia. Pointless killings does not justify anything, absolutely nothing.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Moral obligation? strange
since pakistan and the authorities have repeatedly said that they have nothing to do with terrorists inside russian territory it a moral obligation for them then not to even give moral support to to voice any of their concerns towards whats happening inside the territory of russia and how russians deal with it
but it is exactly the opposite i find when people talk about the terrorists inside russia

First, my sympathies at the loss of innocent life in Russia.

Now, who is providing moral support for Chechen separatists? IIRC, Pakistan was supportive of Chechen autonomy within the Russian Federation, and not of Chechen independence.

And your comment about 'support for terrorists' is nothing but a strawman. The Pakistani government certainly has not expressed such support, and neither have I.

now lets see the point------

come to the nevsky bombings late last year .answer this questions then ....

1> did russia blame pakistan for the incident
ans : NO

2> did russia ask for support from any other country
ans: no

3> what did FSB do?
ans:- hunted down the terrorist in the southern province of ingusethia killed him

4> do anybody of you have any evidence that while killed this terrorist who masterminded the nevsky bombing russia killed scores of locals ?
ans:-- NO nobody even knows about it here <true >

5>what happens after this event ?
ans:- 2 out of the 18 terrorists from his gang comes and blows themselves killing innocents
so the bottom line is these fellows have killed 39 innocents for the death of a terrorist who himself killed scores in the train blast

now isnt it a joke when people try and justify the actions of these terrorists in the name of this and that and whatnot....

there is no justification in any of the claims thats made here supporting the terrorists all of this support only shows the people in poor light

Who is justifying? Certainly not Pakistan and certainly not me. I have however pointed out that Russia's brutal tactics against the Chechen's, combatant and non-combatant alike, will make it extremely hard for it to completely stamp out Chechen resentment against Russia and therefore continue to be vulnerable to terrorist attacks.

If you do not like the fact that people point out Russia's inhuman policies in quelling separatists, then go protest to your government that it change those policies. Of course take care that you don't get shot in the back of the head by your prided 'FSB' while walking down the street a few days later, or have some radiological substance injected into you in some fashion.

The Russian State has only changed its 'dress' to appear more 'amenable' to the world, but it is still an intolerant and autocratic State.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

A.V. -- i'm sorry about the loss of life that occurred.

May the culprits be brought to justice. More importantly, i hope there can be permanent peace in North Caucasus through dialogue and mutual understanding on certain issues --social/economic etc.

You are aware of the bloodshed we have encountered in our own blessed country. Therefore, it would be irresponsible to think that anybody here condones what happened. It was wrong.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

A.V. -- i'm sorry about the loss of life that occurred.

May the culprits be brought to justice. More importantly, i hope there can be permanent peace in North Caucasus through dialogue and mutual understanding on certain issues --social/economic etc.

You are aware of the bloodshed we have encountered in our own blessed country. Therefore, it would be irresponsible to think that anybody here condones what happened. It was wrong.

Sir, the attacks cannot be justified and we should condemn them at any level but why did Russian Minister gave statement that certain elements in Pakistan "maybe" involved in Moscow attacks.
Personally, I condemn the attacks but when Russia accuses us for their internal problems on the basis of suspicion; should I have the same sympathies for the people who died in Moscow Attacks?
My country (Pakistan) has been dragged in it, so why should I condemn?
If Russian Minister gave a "political" statement than it is too bad. Pakistan is not here to be blamed for every single attack in the world whether on the basis of suspicion or in reality.
Politics should be kept aside because the statements made by Russia or any other country not only hurts our country's image but it also hurts people like me.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Sir, the attacks cannot be justified and we should condemn them at any level but why did Russian Minister said that certain elements in Pakistan can be involved in Moscow attacks.

why didnt our F.O. punch back and debunk this ridiculous 'theory'


politicians were too busy trying to find a new name for (former) NWFP

Personally, I condemn the attacks but when Russia accuses us for their internal problems on the basis of suspicion

well, some of us blamed them for putting explosive mangos on Gen. Zia's C130 Hercules;

if Russian have evidence that Pakistan had any involvement, then they know where to forward and relay all enquiries.

Top Russian leadership has said nothing about Pakistan. That's because they know that the insurgency they face is purely a domestic phenomenon.

; should I have the same sympathies for the people who died in Moscow Attacks?

when innocent people who are not involved in the any politics are killed -- then we sympathize with them. At least decent human beings do.

this isn't Grand Theft Auto, this is reality. It was a terrorist attack.

My country (Pakistan) has been dragged in it, so why should I condemn?

Because the people who were killed had no idea what was coming to them. They were probably only thinking about getting to work; not about even thinking of Pakistan.

Like i said -- foreign office should word a 'harsh' statement and forward it to Russian embassy.

Pakistan is not here to be blamed for every single attack in the world whether on the basis of suspicion or in reality.

tell it to the indians

anybody who reads news and knows Pakistan -- will know we are most responsible nation that has paid highest price for the sake of peace.....when we will get our own peace? When we have strong leadership, and when external elements stop meddling around in our neighborhood.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

why didnt our F.O. punch back and debunk this ridiculous 'theory'


politicians were too busy trying to find a new name for (former) NWFP




well, some of us blamed them for putting explosive mangos on Gen. Zia's C130 Hercules;

if Russian have evidence that Pakistan had any involvement, then they know where to forward and relay all enquiries.

Top Russian leadership has said nothing about Pakistan. That's because they know that the insurgency they face is purely a domestic phenomenon.




when innocent people who are not involved in the any politics are killed -- then we sympathize with them. At least decent human beings do.

this isn't Grand Theft Auto, this is reality. It was a terrorist attack.




Because the people who were killed had no idea what was coming to them. They were probably only thinking about getting to work; not about even thinking of Pakistan.

Like i said -- foreign office should word a 'harsh' statement and forward it to Russian embassy.



tell it to the indians

anybody who reads news and knows Pakistan -- will know we are most responsible nation that has paid highest price for the sake of peace.....when we will get our own peace? When we have strong leadership, and when external elements stop meddling around in our neighborhood.

Well, you raised a good point that our FM should have condemned the statements made by Russian Minister. I am not saying that we should not condemn the attacks, all I am saying is that when Russian Minister accused us on the basis of suspicion than I have some reservations by showing sympathies. I hope that we don't see more attacks on Russian soil and Russians do not blame us for their problems.

"Because the people who were killed had no idea what was coming to them. They were probably only thinking about getting to work; not about even thinking of Pakistan."
True and I hope things get better both for Pakistan and Russia.

Our leadership is not strong..so I don't expect anything from them

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i can't blame you; but im just saying be rational

i sympathize with those killed in bombay drama......most of them were probably just poor common people. There's no honour in celebrating their death.

of course once indians started becoming ultra-irrational and resorting to anti-Pakistani behaviour, i went from sad to LIVID.

Many in nation felt same way i was feeling about it.



Anyways --- we dont have bad relations with Russia as of late. Some mutual and diverging interests, but calculated diplomacy has ensured biltaral relations prevail.

 

[Moscow]

The Soviet/Russian state has changed little from the days of Stalin's Gulags, through the massacres in Afghanistan, and the killings in Chechnya.

Contemporary Russia may wear the facade of democracy, and the letters may change in the initials of its security agencies, but movement towards respect for human rights remains a distant dream for now in Russia.

The comparison of policies over the years is not inapt.

the soviet/russian state has changed little if you say this then you are mistaken and are viewing it through the narrow western prism
how can you compare stalins era to present day ? are you serious about that
mate welcome to moscow i will be happy to serve as host and take you around and clear your misconceptions


now tell me this if the policies havent changed then today the soviet union would not have dissolved , change was the reason for soviet demise

and who devises the guidelines for human rights the US and its allies in europe
as i told before talks about human rights violations from a foreigner is as absurd as i talking about human rights violations inside pakistan by just reading 2 pages of report or article...
howcome 24 other ethic tribes and majority muslims staying inside russia have no problems but its only a handful of foreign funded checens have issues and try to invoke instability the region


RUSSIA or its policies hasent changed since the STALINS era is the joke of the century mate

 

[SekrutYakhni]

i can't blame you; but im just saying be rational

i sympathize with those killed in bombay drama......most of them were probably just poor common people. There's no honour in celebrating their death.

of course once indians started becoming ultra-irrational and resorting to anti-Pakistani behaviour, i went from sad to LIVID.

Many in nation felt same way i was feeling about it.


Anyways --- we dont have bad relations with Russia as of late. Some mutual and diverging interests, but calculated diplomacy has ensured biltaral relations prevail.

Very rational post!


and just to tell you and others that I don't laugh on innocent deaths!
God bless everyone!
For God everyone is equal. No Russians and no Pakistanis!

 

[prithwidw]

i can't blame you; but im just saying be rational

i sympathize with those killed in bombay drama......most of them were probably just poor common people. There's no honour in celebrating their death.

of course once indians started becoming ultra-irrational and resorting to anti-Pakistani behaviour, i went from sad to LIVID.

Many in nation felt same way i was feeling about it.



Anyways --- we dont have bad relations with Russia as of late. Some mutual and diverging interests, but calculated diplomacy has ensured biltaral relations prevail.

Yeah so very rational. Bombay drama huh!
You should be stripped of your Think Tank badge.

 

[Moscow]

double post

 

[Moscow]

First, my sympathies at the loss of innocent life in Russia.

Now, who is providing moral support for Chechen separatists? IIRC, Pakistan was supportive of Chechen autonomy within the Russian Federation, and not of Chechen independence.

And your comment about 'support for terrorists' is nothing but a strawman. The Pakistani government certainly has not expressed such support, and neither have I.

on what grounds does pakistan have the right to ask for Chechen autonomy inside pakistan its russia,s internal matter as as to say still i would say the world would be a better place if all the countries stop poking their nose in others affairs

i was not speaking about the government or you in particular i was mentioning people here in the forum in general many of whom expressed grief yet tried to justify the actions in the name of " suppresion of human rights " " freedom movements " and such other phrases

The Russian State has only changed its 'dress' to appear more 'amenable' to the world, but it is still an intolerant and autocratic State.

about intolerance you should look at the different ethnic groups staying inside russian territory in complete harmony i mentioned this point in detail on my post 2 pages back

If you do not like the fact that people point out Russia's inhuman policies in quelling separatists, then go protest to your government that it change those policies. Of course take care that you don't get shot in the back of the head by your prided 'FSB' while walking down the street a few days later, or have some radiological substance injected into you in some fashion.

the goverment gives us enough right to express myself freely and if i find it improper i can certainly voice my opinion
The FSB shooting me down the street is a FANTASY tale only good to see in movies its untrue completely