De-hyphenating India-Pakistan!!

[Indus Pakistan]

And your more than welcome to look at the "moral relativism" involved therewith and the finer points of morality of conquests of California, Hyderabad or Kashmir.

Ps. Time allowance precludes broaching the other touchy subject of wiping out entire peoples in the process of rolling out USA and evil or no evil involved.

 

[Gufi]

Mate there is no superiority comlex, You like it or not India is a big nation (bigger interms of size and population) Yes it has the advantages and disadvantages, but then you need to accept it and move...... One can turn back at Pakistan and say you guys have inferiority complex, Then what????

Read this thread, the Indians I was talking to admitted to having a superior feeling. Do not say what you can not back up when your own posters say otherwise

Our mistrust and issues are much much more complex than you assume and no one wants to look at it.... Every one want to blame the other nations with what ever they have been fed.....

Oh I agree the mistrust is because of manipulation but the manipulators are very obvious. While our whole election process hardly has any mention of India, Pakistan is always a point in every Indian political issue. Everything that goes wrong is the fault of the ISI, read your own media for a change.

I did not want to reply to your post on religious oppression.....For me it sounds funny ( i wont elaborate the reason because i hate talking about religion, especiallly on a forum like this.... Did u read my signature?)

Again read this thread properly.

 

[MilSpec]

I have said this on multiple occasions, In the current situation, elimination of hostility between the two nations can only come from disengagement. In current scenario spending diplomatic capital in Pakistan is a waste of resources for India.

India-Pakistan rivalry is akin to sibling rivalry where India is considered the elder sibling and is often asked by the "elders" around to show patience.
Let's accept it that India and Pakistan can never be friends- I call it fait accompli. Our relations have touched new lows and thawing relations in not a solution...so let's freeze it completely.
It's a well known fact that India and Pakistan would prosper by leap and bounds if they stop concentrating on each other. But since India is always expected to take the first step, India should act smart.
What do I mean by "act smart"??
No, I don't mean getting "non-state actors" involved, au contrarie I mean let's slowly cut off our relations and stop depending on each other.

How can this be achieved???

• By downgrading the diplomatic relations- Pakistan and India are often named in the same breath, so first both the countries must stop getting associated with each other. Aman ki asha and Samjhauta express have not achieved any tangible results. On India's part, India can put Pakistan in Consular status and allow limited functioning of Pakistan embassy in India till (say) LeT mastermind agrees to send his voice sample to India. Pakistan can also take a similar step.
• Reducing our economic dependence: India's GDP is expected to grow 7% this year, Pakistan on the other hand is lagging behind, its economic growth is stagnant at 2%. Current trade volume between the 2 countries is less than $3 billion and the bulk of it is carried out through Dubai. Why take the trouble?? I don't know about Pakistan but India's trade volume with other countries is over $700billion. So do we have to travel the extra mile in the name of "Aman ki asha"?? A big fat No!!!
• Kashmir is (not) an issue: The UNSC resolution which gets talked about on international forums, and that which asks Paksitan to vacate Kashmir, and India to conduct plebiscite, is not an obligation. The two countries should accept the status quo and move on. Let's accept LOC as IB.
• Let's seal our borders: This would ensure zero infiltration of terrorists, terrorism is the major disruption to peace process in the region. Since trade volume would be close to nil, sealing borders should not be a biggie. Once the borders are sealed we'll have to spend lesser on our defences and the money can be re-routed for infrastructure building.... A win-win situation for both the countries.

I am sure in our real lives we all know ppl with whom we don't want to be friends but don't want to be known as their foes either, and with whom we maintain a cordial relation for the sake of formality.
This what I hope for, since I have given up on peace talks.

 

[nair]

Oh I agree the mistrust is because of manipulation but the manipulators are very obvious. While our whole election process hardly has any mention of India, Pakistan is always a point in every Indian political issue. Everything that goes wrong is the fault of the ISI, read your own media for a change.
.

If you were posting this 5 years back, then i would have agreed....... There is no Pakistan mania in India or with Indians.... Yes ISI comes up here and there when a terror incident happens, (it is quite natural that they come up , that is what they have known for, eg: 1000 cut and bleed policy)

No one were bothered about Pakistan during election these days, Indian population (most part of it) want better governance and development...... The reason why Modi has become a prime minister is not because people thought he can spank pakistan, but because people thought he can bring development and good governance.....There is hardly any mention of Pakistan, Yes there are journlists like arnab who will ask questions to get some masala for his shows, other than that nothing.......

Having said the above, i wont say that is the case with everyone in India.... There are parties like shivsena who are kind of obsessed or use pakistan name now and then..... barring that nothing......

Believe me these days India and its authorities look at inside for problems and blame themselves for any attacks here (even if ISI did that) probabaly that is the reason why we have less terror attack in India...

 

[Gufi]

If you were posting this 5 years back, then i would have agreed....... There is no Pakistan mania in India or with Indians.... Yes ISI comes up here and there when a terror incident happens, (it is quite natural that they come up , that is what they have known for, eg: 1000 cut and bleed policy)

Yes the elections brings it up, and any pigeon after that also brings it up

Having said the above, i wont say that is the case with everyone in India.... There are parties like shivsena who are kind of obsessed or use pakistan name now and then..... barring that nothing......

Are they not part of the government. They always talk about hurting Pakistan, wonder which definition of extremism that misses

Believe me these days India and its authorities look at inside for problems and blame themselves for any attacks here (even if ISI did that) probabaly that is the reason why we have less terror attack in India...

that is your misunderstanding, the attack that happened just now was proof of that... It took all of 5 mins for Pakistan to pop up and it to be blamed, several times actually before any investigation which showed where the finger would be pointing. Idealistic thinking of yours versus facts

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

This is very typical view of NRIs in particular and educated Hindu elite in general.

However it is wrong on so many levels that I can't even list here.

All of the above has been tried before with failure. And here is the main reason

Bharatis do not understand Pakistan. Heck they do not understand Pakistanis either. This is what I say as "chiragh talay undhera" (usually it is very dark right underneath the lamp), or worse "Blind mice trying to find its way around while keeping its ears shut".


Why do Bharatis do not understand Pakistan?

Many reasons!

1. Bharatis think they have 200 million Muslims living in India, so they fully understand 200 million Pakistanis. WRONG!
2. Bharatis think they are "elder sibling". WRONG!
3. Bharatis think they can have economic growth, while Pakistan will not. WRONG!

and the list goes on and on.

here is a bit more

#1- Pakistanis are as similar to Muslims in Bharat, as they are similar to Muslims living in China or Afghanistan or Iran. So Bharati intellectuals must dehyphenate Pakistan from this type of incorrect thinking.

#2 Bharat is actually 1 day younger (born on Aug 15th) as opposed to Pakistan's birth on Aug 14th. Linking modern day nation states to old countries is intellectually dishonest at best. Can you imagine modern day Egyptians behaving as if they are Pharaohs. Or modern day Italians behaving as the time of Caesars. No those people and those civilizations were different. Modern nation states are different.

Civilizationally, People living in modern day Pakistan have much much much older civilization compared to people living in modern day Bharat. I know you and I have argued about the point. It is wrong to ignore people and put country name first. Why? People make countries and not the other way around.

#3 in economy, Bharat today is where Pakistan was in 1950s. So this is a seesaw of economy. In 50s and 60s Pakistan saw huge leaps in economy. 90s and 00s saw Bharat catching up. If you think Pakistan will not catch up in 2020-2030, then you are utterly wrong.


OK, so what should we do now.

Bharat must come much more closer to Pakistanis where we are today. 200+ nuts should not be used to club 200 million Pakistanis. We are economically vibrant, culturally advanced, and militarily very strong country. Instead of closing borders, we should make the travel visa free. Every Bharati should be allowed to travel to Pakistan without prior visa. you show up at the border, and you get your passport stamped (scanned), and that's it. you are welcome to our cities and our homes and our offices.

It is time we rid the centuries old prejudice and casteism. It is time to truly follow the good and humane traditions of our region.

Believe me, Love trumps hate. everytime!

peace

Bhai... I agree with you but not on the visa part... Il be very damn open ... These people never were and never will be our well wishers no matter how much we treat them with respect or hospitality... You know there are some indians on PDF who gave actually visited Pak and recall how royally they were treated ..., YET... That does not stop them from spreading venom against us ...These people only listen to you when. You have them by the neck.... Hence I disagree....

 

[FaujHistorian]

I agree with you...But again, Hindu Muslims animosity is deep rooted...It is not like it started in 1947...It started long time back when Islamic invaders invaded us....So the massive riot and killing from both sides are the manifestation of continuous anger and difference between Hindus and Muslims....

if you study human history, one of the most horrible violence occured on consistent basis wherever there was a caste system.

upper castes utterly destroyed raped and killed without mercy everytime lower castes got their head up.

And guess what caste system is enshrined only in one region and in only one religion.

So don't go about blaming Muslims vs. Hindu myths if you want to be an honest analyst. Thank you.

So i always takes a practical rational view...In 1947, both Hindus and Muslims are killed mercilessly.....

In 1947 only one small corner of British India saw the riots. Only in Punjab and only close to border districts.

It is a huge fallacy that somehow 1947 put the whole region in flames. No it was not like that. Almost 90%+ British India was rather peaceful (peaceful in the context of 1947 that is).

.My complain with Gandhi and Jinah is only one thing...If a nation was created for Muslims, why not India was not turned into a Non Muslim nation????.

This again shows how modern Bharati nationalist youth has been kept ignorant about 1947.

Please quit sucking to the first grade sarkari school lollypop.

Gandhi and congress was never going to declare Shurdras and Muslims within central India as separate. Why?

Those Shudras and Muslims were already under their thumb, mostly treated as a lower caste except in few cases,.

In fact Gandhi went to great length to use Ambedkar and Azad as tools to spread false propaganda about oneness of Muslims and Harijans.

So modern day Bharat was supposed to be one single unit where lower castes were kept as lower castes for a long long time,


Please learn your true history.

only then you will be able to think in sane manner,.

It is sorry to see that your questions are devoid of any knowledge at all. Sorry I am not trying patronize you. Just expressing my frustration to see so much ignorance coupled with arrogance.

Peace

 

[nair]

Yes the elections brings it up, and any pigeon after that also brings it up

One or two sentences here and there, wont make it big, how much ever you want to believe it, being an indian who lives in India i can tell you Pakistan was never an issue in the last 2 elections.....You are entitled to believe other wise.....

Are they not part of the government. They always talk about hurting Pakistan, wonder which definition of extremism that misses

Yes they are part of govt, but not part of the policy making...... Extremism are 2 things for me 1) Thinking bad or talk bad about some one 2) Taking out AK and start killing those who you think bad or talk bad about.... I am glad that they belong to the first group, but i dont believe in their ideology..... and their support base is confined one city or part of one state.....

Yes the elections brings it up, and any pigeon after that also brings it up

Are they not part of the government. They always talk about hurting Pakistan, wonder which definition of extremism that misses

that is your misunderstanding, the attack that happened just now was proof of that... It took all of 5 mins for Pakistan to pop up and it to be blamed, several times actually before any investigation which showed where the finger would be pointing. Idealistic thinking of yours versus facts

I agree we have an attitude which in our local language we say "chathathu keechakan engil konnathu bheeman thanne" means if it is Keechakan who is died then obviously it is bheeman who murdered him......Our investigations are much more comprehensive, and if we find it is Indians who are behind the attack, then we do not shy away from stating that....But if it is otherwise then..........

 

[FaujHistorian]

I have said this on multiple occasions, In the current situation, elimination of hostility between the two nations can only come from disengagement. In current scenario spending diplomatic capital in Pakistan is a waste of resources for India.

Actually there is a small window that has been opened by Pakistan for Indian trade and goods.

Once it is closed, India will be cut off from the overland routes to the West where prosperity will be.

While INdia will be stuck with the Eastern overpopulated and underdeveloped countries.

So yes. go ahead and disengage. you don't have to convince anyone.

The only funny part is that such slogans are coming from those Bahrati posters who are respected guests of a Pakistani defense forum. Who spend considerable time and effort to engage with other Pakistanis.

Oh what an irony.

 

[Gufi]

I agree we have an attitude which in our local language we say "chathathu keechakan engil konnathu bheeman thanne" means if it is Keechakan who is died then obviously it is bheeman who murdered him......Our investigations are much more comprehensive, and if we find it is Indians who are behind the attack, then we do not shy away from stating that....But if it is otherwise then..........

Your accusations start 5 minutes after the news breaks. Stop acting otherwise, it does not change facts when we look at the coverage yesterday. Smart enough to traverse rivers and border patrols, clever enough to remove all the tags and scratch out every serial number, but stupid enough to turn on GPS in Pakistan keep being manipulated, read the article on technological levels our intelligence wants to attain, and then think how basic GPS technology is. Every child now days knows how easy it is to be tracked...

Yes they are part of govt, but not part of the policy making...... Extremism are 2 things for me 1) Thinking bad or talk bad about some one 2) Taking out AK and start killing those who you think bad or talk bad about.... I am glad that they belong to the first group, but i dont believe in their ideology..... and their support base is confined one city or part of one state.....

Talking bad has lead to many incidents and has lead to riots, what makes things bad, people killed means extremist, so people beaten in streets for what they eat is ok? Nice, extremism is terrorism only if it kills? Again, manipulated definitions and facts... Wonder when you ban these organisations. You always ask Pakistan to do so much yet when it comes to your own people, your motto is that they are isolated cases

One or two sentences here and there, wont make it big, how much ever you want to believe it, being an indian who lives in India i can tell you Pakistan was never an issue in the last 2 elections.....You are entitled to believe other wise.....

Your media and security forces just last year became the laughing stock of the world when they arrested a pigeon from Pakistan, paranoid much??

 

[MilSpec]

Actually there is a small window that has been opened by Pakistan for Indian trade and goods.

Once it is closed, India will be cut off from the overland routes to the West where prosperity will be.

While INdia will be stuck with the Eastern overpopulated and underdeveloped countries.

So yes. go ahead and disengage. you don't have to convince anyone.

The only funny part is that such slogans are coming from those Bahrati posters who are respected guests of a Pakistani defense forum. Who spend considerable time and effort to engage with other Pakistanis.

Oh what an irony.

Are you even aware of India's biggest markets? Pakistan doesn't figure in first 20 of them, heck even local market of Maharashtra is bigger than than entire Pakistan. So as far as loosing out, there are many other countries where diplomatic capital will pay better dividends, and in my estimate if disengagement reduces hostility.. it should be a welcome move.

As far as this entire overland transit is concerned, It's absolutely fine. I highly doubt India want's to be dependent on Pakistan as a transit state.

 

[FaujHistorian]

No bhai jaan our nationalists hate the idea of Pakistan which tries to hurt India(terrorists)..

Meray bhai,

What you say is true only for those who were born in and after 1980s and those who started reading newspaper during the same period.

Otherwise Bahrati belligerency has been around for a long long long time, long before Pakistan had no ability to use your favorite T-words.

The problem with current day college kids from Bahrat is that they are too young and too ignorant about their own history and geography.

Sadly.

And such ignorance and arrogance results in what I call fits of rage, sort of bipolar disorder shown frequently by Modi and his security establishment,

Are you even aware of India's biggest markets? Pakistan doesn't figure in first 20 of them, heck even local market of Maharashtra is bigger than than entire Pakistan. So as far as loosing out, there are many other countries where diplomatic capital will pay better dividends, and in my estimate if disengagement reduces hostility.. it should be a welcome move.

There are two kinds of markets for every country based on finances and two kinds based on gegraphy. Never mix these. Thank you.

Geography
1. Markets with shortest shipping distance
2. Markets far away

Finance

1. Markets where there is a trade surplus and the amount of such surplus as percentage of trade
2. Markets where there is a trade deficit and amount of this deficit as a percentage of total volume.

Just comparing total size gives only a partial picture.

For any country it is the #1 in each category that is much more important for economic health and prosperity

If you look at Bharat's immediate neighbors, you will know that Pakistan + West of Pakistan would have offered the best of the two factors.

Peace

 

[nair]

Your accusations start 5 minutes after the news breaks. Stop acting otherwise, it does not change facts when we look at the coverage yesterday. Smart enough to traverse rivers and border patrols, clever enough to remove all the tags and scratch out every serial number, but stupid enough to turn on GPS in Pakistan keep being manipulated, read the article on technological levels our intelligence wants to attain, and then think how basic GPS technology is. Every child now days knows how easy it is to be tracked...

Was it is hard to understand what i said??? There are media houses who speculate, and it is you who blindly believe that you can do no wrong.....

Talking bad has lead to many incidents and has lead to riots, what makes things bad, people killed means extremist, so people beaten in streets for what they eat is ok? Nice, extremism is terrorism only if it kills? Again, manipulated definitions and facts... Wonder when you ban these organisations. You always ask Pakistan to do so much yet when it comes to your own people, your motto is that they are isolated cases

Shiv sena havent caused a single life in Pakistan???? Why are you bothered?? What way it is connected to Pakistan on Indian riots???? ( I am not accepting or supporting riot but trying to put things in perspective ) No one is bothered here when some political party is spewing venom agianst India..... We have problem only they try to kill Indians in India.....

Your media and security forces just last year became the laughing stock of the world when they arrested a pigeon from Pakistan, paranoid much??

Lol, what Pigeon has got to do with what you quoted?? Scoring points should not be the motto on a discussion...... If that give you satisfction then let me agree that was embarrassing.... Can we move on?

 

[FaujHistorian]

explain.

That was exact opposite of the quoted text.

 

[OrionHunter]

India-Pakistan rivalry is akin to sibling rivalry where India is considered the elder sibling and is often asked by the "elders" around to show patience.
Let's accept it that India and Pakistan can never be friends- I call it fait accompli. Our relations have touched new lows and thawing relations in not a solution...so let's freeze it completely.
It's a well known fact that India and Pakistan would prosper by leap and bounds if they stop concentrating on each other. But since India is always expected to take the first step, India should act smart.
What do I mean by "act smart"??
No, I don't mean getting "non-state actors" involved, au contrarie I mean let's slowly cut off our relations and stop depending on each other.

How can this be achieved???

• By downgrading the diplomatic relations- Pakistan and India are often named in the same breath, so first both the countries must stop getting associated with each other. Aman ki asha and Samjhauta express have not achieved any tangible results. On India's part, India can put Pakistan in Consular status and allow limited functioning of Pakistan embassy in India till (say) LeT mastermind agrees to send his voice sample to India. Pakistan can also take a similar step.
• Reducing our economic dependence: India's GDP is expected to grow 7% this year, Pakistan on the other hand is lagging behind, its economic growth is stagnant at 2%. Current trade volume between the 2 countries is less than $3 billion and the bulk of it is carried out through Dubai. Why take the trouble?? I don't know about Pakistan but India's trade volume with other countries is over $700billion. So do we have to travel the extra mile in the name of "Aman ki asha"?? A big fat No!!!
• Kashmir is (not) an issue: The UNSC resolution which gets talked about on international forums, and that which asks Paksitan to vacate Kashmir, and India to conduct plebiscite, is not an obligation. The two countries should accept the status quo and move on. Let's accept LOC as IB.
• Let's seal our borders: This would ensure zero infiltration of terrorists, terrorism is the major disruption to peace process in the region. Since trade volume would be close to nil, sealing borders should not be a biggie. Once the borders are sealed we'll have to spend lesser on our defences and the money can be re-routed for infrastructure building.... A win-win situation for both the countries.

I am sure in our real lives we all know ppl with whom we don't want to be friends but don't want to be known as their foes either, and with whom we maintain a cordial relation for the sake of formality.
This what I hope for, since I have given up on peace talks.

Pakistan is now more emboldened than ever due to its misplaced notion that it would soon become a superpower far ahead of India due to the CPEC. That's why the smirk on their faces and an aggressive attitude toward India. However, they're in for a surprise!

Secondly, let's face it. The truth is that the Pakistan Establishment will never want peace with India as then the PA/ISI would be relegated to the background and lose the power and pelf they now command. In other words, the PA would be out of business. Now who want's that? Certainly not the army brass!

It's an ideological divide between the two countries and thus the twain shall never meet.

The Pakistanis don't care for the Kashmiris or Kashmir per se. The real issue is the water that flows through Kashmir into Pakistan, which India controls. If they get Kashmir, they get to control the water. But hypothetically speaking even if Kashmir is given to Pakistan, the Establishment will come up with some other issue to keep the conflict alive due to the reason mentioned above - power.

State sponsored terrorism will continue as these terrorists bred in Pakistan, like the LeT and JeM, are the PA's first line of defense against a future conflict with India or even Afghanistan and therefore are its 'strategic assets'.

In a nutshell, there is going to be a no peace no war scenario between India and Pakistan till the end of days. That's the reality. Better get used to it as a way of life!