De-hyphenating India-Pakistan!!

[Srinivas]

What do you think 1947 was? That is about as potent de-hypenation as you are ever to get. All that needs doing is cutting the loose ends and then shutting te door tight.

In my experiance it is the Indian love for the British Raj that needs resolving. They need to get over that 1849 to 1947 affair. Stop deluding about the sphere called "India" that stretches from one corner of South Asia to another. The British built it. They left in 1947 and you guy's are not British.

It reminds me of the delusions the Germans had over "Uropa" being some exclusive domain that they could hold sway over. Stop finding tenous amorphous concepts like "culture" to suffocate us under this blanket you call "India".

We are us. You are you. So what if the British locked us up in open air prison for 98 years. We got freedom from that prison. You need to celebrate 1947 as well.

I rather interested to knowing this attitude of Islamic Nation (Ummah), Jihad and what muslims think about this region, because this is real than the article !

 

[FaujHistorian]

India-Pakistan rivalry is akin to sibling rivalry where India is considered the elder sibling and is often asked by the "elders" around to show patience.
Let's accept it that India and Pakistan can never be friends- I call it fait accompli. Our relations have touched new lows and thawing relations in not a solution...so let's freeze it completely.
It's a well known fact that India and Pakistan would prosper by leap and bounds if they stop concentrating on each other. But since India is always expected to take the first step, India should act smart.
What do I mean by "act smart"??
No, I don't mean getting "non-state actors" involved, au contrarie I mean let's slowly cut off our relations and stop depending on each other.

How can this be achieved???

• By downgrading the diplomatic relations- Pakistan and India are often taken in the same breath, so first both the countries must stop getting associated with each other. Aman ki asha and Samjhauta express have not achieved any tangible results. On India's part, India can put Pakistan in Consular status and allow limited functioning of Pakistan embassy in India till (say) LeT mastermind agrees to send his voice sample to India. Pakistan can also take a similar step.
• Reducing our economic dependence: India's GDP is expected to grow 7% this year, Pakistan on the other hand is lagging behind, its economic growth is stagnant at 2%. Current trade volume between the 2 countries is less than $3 billion and the bulk of it is carried out through Dubai. Why take the trouble?? I don't know about Pakistan but India's trade volume with other countries is over $700billion. So do we have to travel the extra mile in the name of "Aman ki asha"?? A big fat No!!!
• Kashmir is (not) an issue: The UNSC resolution which gets talked about on international forums, and that which asks Paksitan to vacate Kashmir, and India to conduct plebiscite, is not an obligation. The two countries should accept the status quo and move on. Let's accept LOC as IB.
• Let's seal our borders: This would ensure zero infiltration of terrorists, terrorism is the major disruption to peace process in the region. Since trade volume would be close to nil, sealing borders should not be a biggie. Once the borders are sealed we'll have to spend lesser on our defences and the money can be re-routed for infrastructure building.... A win-win situation for both the countries.

I am sure in our real lives we all know ppl with whom we don't want to be friends but don't want to be known as their foes either, and with whom we maintain a cordial relation for the sake of formality.
This what I hope for, since I have given up on peace talks.

This is very typical view of NRIs in particular and educated Hindu elite in general.

However it is wrong on so many levels that I can't even list here.

All of the above has been tried before with failure. And here is the main reason

Bharatis do not understand Pakistan. Heck they do not understand Pakistanis either. This is what I say as "chiragh talay undhera" (usually it is very dark right underneath the lamp), or worse "Blind mice trying to find its way around while keeping its ears shut".


Why do Bharatis do not understand Pakistan?

Many reasons!

1. Bharatis think they have 200 million Muslims living in India, so they fully understand 200 million Pakistanis. WRONG!
2. Bharatis think they are "elder sibling". WRONG!
3. Bharatis think they can have economic growth, while Pakistan will not. WRONG!

and the list goes on and on.

here is a bit more

#1- Pakistanis are as similar to Muslims in Bharat, as they are similar to Muslims living in China or Afghanistan or Iran. So Bharati intellectuals must dehyphenate Pakistan from this type of incorrect thinking.

#2 Bharat is actually 1 day younger (born on Aug 15th) as opposed to Pakistan's birth on Aug 14th. Linking modern day nation states to old countries is intellectually dishonest at best. Can you imagine modern day Egyptians behaving as if they are Pharaohs. Or modern day Italians behaving as the time of Caesars. No those people and those civilizations were different. Modern nation states are different.

Civilizationally, People living in modern day Pakistan have much much much older civilization compared to people living in modern day Bharat. I know you and I have argued about the point. It is wrong to ignore people and put country name first. Why? People make countries and not the other way around.

#3 in economy, Bharat today is where Pakistan was in 1950s. So this is a seesaw of economy. In 50s and 60s Pakistan saw huge leaps in economy. 90s and 00s saw Bharat catching up. If you think Pakistan will not catch up in 2020-2030, then you are utterly wrong.


OK, so what should we do now.

Bharat must come much more closer to Pakistanis where we are today. 200+ nuts should not be used to club 200 million Pakistanis. We are economically vibrant, culturally advanced, and militarily very strong country. Instead of closing borders, we should make the travel visa free. Every Bharati should be allowed to travel to Pakistan without prior visa. you show up at the border, and you get your passport stamped (scanned), and that's it. you are welcome to our cities and our homes and our offices.

It is time we rid the centuries old prejudice and casteism. It is time to truly follow the good and humane traditions of our region.

Believe me, Love trumps hate. everytime!

peace

 

[nForce]

Not practical!!!
Any better idea??

Hehe.. why not ?

Deep down, you know that's the only way it is going to come down to, no matter how much we try to wrap it within folds of civility.
Pakistani army will not allow it's civilian govt. to go for any solution that divides Kashmir, go into some kind of deal, for such a deal destroys it's image among it's people. That's very important for Pakistani army, because it is the institution that holds Pakistan together and safe-guards the ideology behind creation of the country, which is separate land for Islam. Kashmir is the core issue for them and it is seen as a struggle for Muslims of Kashmir. If Pakistani army fails in doing that in it's home turf, then it looses all it's credibility.

In case of India, no political party will commit the greatest political suicide of the century in front of 1.2 billion people, a fifth of the World, by handing over Kashmir on a platter to the Pakistanis. If any party does so, then they might as well commit suicides for real with all their party and family members, just to escape what might follow later.

So, you see.....that's the reality...looking the other way will not change anything.

EDIT :

We may give it a try, keep trying, give peace not just a chance but multiple chances, but I'm not very hopeful about this.

 

[utraash]

Practically for India, my understanding is we should have very neutral relationship with Pakistan for another 1nhalf decade keeping our economic growth on track unhindered by sponsored terrorism..... That would suffice to strangulate the Kashmiriyat of Pakistan.....

Holistically
We should sit n talk .... If we cant talk on Kashmir then lets build the our economy first resolve non serious issue amicably with some give&take formula..... Weed out the terrorism from the region ..... Work for few more decades in building trust on each other n then pick up Kashmir...... Its day dreaming seeing history though....

 

[Srinivas]

Sorry??

I mean to say instead of involving your thoughts in India Pakistan relations .... find a good activity which gives similar thrill !

 

[ranjeet]

culturally, we are not similar any more so working on restablishing it is a waste of time and energy.

So "how" should we talk??


You're contradicting yourself now.

By cultural I meant cultural invasion, not some long lost bonhomie from our side.

Engage Civilian government and Army/ISI differently.

 

[airmarshal]

Talk and resolve issues. India has a habit of running away and not returning to negotiate on one pretext or another.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We made it known loud and clear in 1947. Even Nehru must have heard. Victoria Schofield covers this quite well in 'Afghan Frontier: At the Crossroads of Conflict', page 238.

"When Jawaharlal Nehru decided to visit the Frontier in late 1946, in spite of being hailed as one of the great leaders of the Independence movement in India, he met with a very different reception from the welcome accorded to him almost ten years previously. Gerald Curtis, on leave in Peshawar was able to observe the progress of his tour. "Nehru hoped to be acclaimed the liberator of the nation and quash the two-nation theory. Khan Sahib hoped that he would be able to persuade Nehru that relations with the tribes should be exercised through him". The tide, however had already turned in favour of the Muslim League and Pakistan, and the British feared that the visit would provoke a strong reaction."The Government of India in Delhi tried to persuade him not go," said John Dring, at that time Deputy Commissioner in Peshawar. Sir Olaf Caroe, who had taken over from Cunningham as governor earlier in the year, also tried to make Nehru abandon the visit, which he considered was "a brave effort, but ill-conceived and bound to fail".

The first town in tribal territory on Nehru's itinerary was Miranshah, where he was to address a Jirga. But, according to reports reaching the British, the "Utmanzai Wazirs were not impressed with his pledge to "set them free", calling out "why dont you speak Pashtu? Go back to Hindustan". His reception at Razmak was no better. The tribesman fired on the plane before it even arrived. Robin Hodson, who was the Political Agent for South Waziristan, witnessed Nerhu's address to the jirga there. "Instead of remaining seated, to my astonishment Nehru got up and started addressing the tribesmen as though he were at a political rally, waving his arms around and marching up and down. At jirga it is the custom to sit down and the person addressing the Jirga would be seated on a chair. But Nehru's manner did not please them". Again he said that he would set them free from the slavery of the British but the reply - in Urdu for Nehru to understand - came "We are not the slaves of the British, and we certainly are not going to be your slaves". Using the contemptuous word for an Indian , Kortunai, they said that if they had to deal with any Indian it would be Jinnah. The meeting broke up in disorder. When Nehru was advanced upon by a Mehsud with an umbrella, it was Robin Hodson who stepped in to protect him. Hodson was therefore surprised "to listen to All India Radio the political officers there (us) had arranged a demonstration against Nehru".

At Wana, the Ahmedzai Wazirs refused to meet him, and debagged the suited and booted Hindus who went to visit him. Abdul Ghaffar Khan, who, together Dr Khan Sahib, accompanied Nehru throughout the trip spoke scathingly of the British officers in Waziristan calling them "suave and cunning". He attributed the docility of the tribesmen to the allowances given to them by the British. Nehru journeyed on to Tank and Jandola, where he met some of the smaller tribes. "Here the tribesmen received us warmly and brought back sheep to present us" noted Ghaffar Khan. Back in Peshawar , Nehru's next stop was the Khyber Pass. But the Afridis refused to grant the usual tribal protection, and the recently reconstituted Khyber Rifles were called in to protect the party again sniping and stone throwing. After tea in Torkham, they returned to Peshawar without meeting an Afridi..."

So let us get over our time in that prison where we spent 98 years trapped togather called "British Raj". You need to celebrate 1947 when the British left and we got freedom because you got a chance go your way. we got chance to run our way. So be happy.

 

[nForce]

@levina

I can tell you don't like what I'm saying

 

[scorpionx]

The Indian leadership has a historically pathetic record of jeopardizing its foreign policies with its neighbors. We failed miserably in capitalizing the opportunities after 1965 and 1971, we failed to build a comprehensive homeland security system and repeatedly fell prey in front of AK-47s and last but not the least what politicians speak is hardly they are capable of bringing into materialization.

It is time for a self introspection before blaming Pakistan for a while; to realize if at all we can achieve what we really want to? We already tried enough to de-hyphenate ourselves from Pakistan but could not despite being a larger economy and military force for our own folly and meekness for the last seventy years.

 

[WAJsal]

I would suggest a sensible leader for India. Then again my views. some positive developments in Congress time, mostly because they didn't apply this so called 'aggressive attitude', Modi ji has taken against Pakistan. In return, this is hurting them. Note: back when congress was in govt, not as usual firing at borders or LOC, not as usual intense moments between the two countries. It's quite clear that Indian leadership has taken a very negative stance on Pakistan and it is not going the way they expected it to go. Modi needs to re-think his strategy and continue talks with Pakistan.
My views

 

[KingMamba]

Indians can start the process by removing themselves from pdf.

 

[WAJsal]

We already tried enough to de-hyphenate ourselves from Pakistan but could not despite being a larger economy and military force for our own folly and meekness for the last seventy years.

Well said.

 

[nForce]

I would suggest a sensible leader for India. Then again my views. some positive developments in Congress time, mostly because they didn't apply this so called 'aggressive attitude', Modi ji has taken against Pakistan. In return, this is hurting them. Note: back when congress was in govt, not as usual firing at borders or LOC, not as usual intense moments between the two countries. It's quite clear that Indian leadership has taken a very negative stance on Pakistan and it is not going the way they expected it to go. Modi needs to re-think his strategy and continue talks with Pakistan.
My views

Sigh....

Modi is not trying to anti-Pakistan.. He just showing that he is not Congress.
And how and why do you think the border firings start anyways ? Congress tells the BSF not to and the NDA govt. tells them to shoot ?
There are no negative or positive stances, at bureaucratic level, things have not moved a single inch since the terrorist attack on Mumbai.

 

[Levina]

This is very typical view of NRIs in particular and educated Hindu elite in general.

Taunting me?? Are you??

All of the above has been tried before with failure. And here is the main reason

Sorry I don't remember the last time India-Pak trade was brought down to zero paisa.

Bharatis do not understand Pakistan.

I did not claim it, that's your assumption. My point is since we don't understand each other why can't we completely ignore each other???

Btw it is BHARTIYA. Bharati is a distorted version and offensive.

1. Bharatis think they have 200 million Muslims living in India, so they fully understand 200 million Pakistanis. WRONG!
2. Bharatis think they are "elder sibling". WRONG!

Sorry these are your assumptions.

3. Bharatis think they can have economic growth, while Pakistan will not. WRONG!

My mistake!
Pakistan's GDP growth was 4% and 2. I will correct it in my OP, I'm using my mobile so it will take time do it.

#1- Pakistanis are as similar to Muslims in Bharat, as they are similar to Muslims living in China or Afghanistan or Iran. So Bharati intellectuals must dehyphenate Pakistan from this type of incorrect thinking.

My OP is not about religions, so I don't understand why would you make such a statement.

#2 Bharat is actually 1 day younger (born on Aug 15th) as opposed to Pakistan's birth on Aug 14th. Linking modern day nation states to old countries is intellectually dishonest at best. Can you imagine modern day Egyptians behaving as if they are Pharaohs. Or modern day Italians behaving as the time of Caesars. No those people and those civilizations were different. Modern nation states are different.

Lol
This is exactly what I wanted to say that India should stop behaving like an elder sibling and treat Pakistan as an equal.

Civilizationally, People living in modern day Pakistan have much much much older civilization compared to people living in modern day Bharat. I know you and I have argued about the point. It is wrong to ignore people and put country name first. Why? People make countries and not the other way around.

I'm not denying Pakistan had a decorous past but don't forget that India has had non-stop inhabitation, civilisations thrived here even before the last ice-age.

#3 in economy, Bharat today is where Pakistan was in 1950s. So this is a seesaw of economy. In 50s and 60s Pakistan saw huge leaps in economy. 90s and 00s saw Bharat catching up. If you think Pakistan will not catch up in 2020-2030, then you are utterly wrong.

Let's wait and watch.

We are economically vibrant, culturally advanced, and militarily very strong country.

It's good to remain sanguine even during worst of times.

Instead of closing borders, we should make the travel visa free. Every Bharati should be allowed to travel to Pakistan without prior visa. you show up at the border, and you get your passport stamped (scanned), and that's it. you are welcome to our cities and our homes and our offices.

According to survey 54% of Pakistanis view India negatively and so also there are 45% of Indians who feel the same. So I don't see the need to ease visa rules.

It is time we rid the centuries old prejudice and casteism. It is time to truly follow the good and humane traditions of our region.

Believe me, Love trumps hate. everytime!

peace

I called for a no hate, no love relationship. Let's just be neutral towards each other.

I mean to say instead of involving your thoughts in India Pakistan relations .... find a good activity which gives similar thrill !

Not interested!