Dassault Woos India Sensing MMRCA Deal Conclusion

[Dash]

Importing 25-30 jets directly from France is a good idea...lets see..

 

[Taygibay]

Wouldn't you say 40, Dash? If I am not mistaking, the IAF runs on a 34 AC Squadron format?
So that 34 + 6 experimentation testing birds and this unit can carry formation of some newer pilots as the locally produced machines trickle in? It is what was done with the EC 01-007 Provence in France until numbers allowed the dedicated Escadron de transformation Rafale ( Raffy learning Squadron ) to be set-up? The 05-330 Côte-d'Argent experiments ( extra 6 birds up there ). The EC 1-7 ( Omnirole but Aerial Defense oriented though they did bomb in A-stan and Libya )was operational but carried induction of the pilots that later formed the 2nd unit ( EC 01-091 Gascogne Nuke Strike ) and only in late 2010 did the Transformation ( teaching ) Squadron ETR 02-092 Aquitaine opened?

( Flottila 12F came first but on LRIP Rafale F1 later replaced and under refit to present standard. )
Only then did the EC 03-030 Lorraine mini squadron in UAE 11F and EC 02-030 Normandie Niemen were made up of pilots formed at the ETR dedicated unit?

Of course, it all depends on how fast things go with standard production and/or whether some IAF pilots are formed in France but that's the beauty of my hypothesis that it can be revised according to changing needs and evolution of the situation by picking within the supplemental acquisitions which as theoretically last to procure could be switched
back and forth between the options without affecting the deal as a whole?

Tay.

 

[faithfulguy]

India should just sign in the dotted line and get the plane for its af instead of worrying about the useless TOT.

 

[OrionHunter]

IF THIS HAPPENS BEFORE THE ELECTION ie very soon as you indicate I WILL GLADLY WITH JOY apologise for my doom and gloom posts about this DEAL BEING cancelled

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the deal ain't gonna happen any time soon! This would be consummated much after the elections are over!

So you may continue with your 'doom and gloom' posts!!

 

[Storm Force]

Looks like my intial fears are proving to be right. That' is
1 we won't buy full stop and just announce this decision post elections

Or 2. We will take another two years making the massive investment futile by 2020 when our rivals have moved to fifth gen fighters.... And as a result of this massive futile decsion we have no funds left for serious work on fgfa .

That last part is my big worry something has to give now either rafale or fgfa

 

[Abingdonboy]

Looks like my intial fears are proving to be right. That' is
1 we won't buy full stop and just announce this decision post elections

Or 2. We will take another two years making the massive investment futile by 2020 when our rivals have moved to fifth gen fighters.... And as a result of this massive futile decsion we have no funds left for serious work on fgfa .

That last part is my big worry something has to give now either rafale or fgfa

You are talking absolute BS mate. What are you? The GoI's accountant? How can YOU have any idea of the funds available?


There is no doubt there are enough funds for the MMRCA deal AND the FGFA over the next 2 decades (the time the payments will be spread out over).



Until we get a definitive "NO" then please refrain from posting your typical nonsense pal.

 

[Storm Force]

Abingdonboy.

Enough FUNDS for MMRCA & FGFA

ARE YOU SURE.

WE ARE talking upwards of $60 billion in total which includes

$25 billion in total for 126 rafale including decades worth of weapons and future upgrades to mk4 as planned by dassult

$35 BILLION for FGFA estimated which includes $5 billion of india,s share of development cost and $30 bilion to 144 fighters and the weapons and the infrascture to license buuild these in india.

even over 15 years its $4 billion a year..

WATS left for more trainers more helos, more transports SAMS and radars. TEJAS LCA
WATS left for the massive NAVY plans with 3 carriers and 30 warships
WATS left for the complete modernisation of a 1 million man army
OUR NUKE TRIAD & 5 NUKE SUBS.

i AM NOT SAYING we cant spend $60 billion in 15 years HECK i expect india to spend twice THAT AMOUNT.

BUT not on 2 fighter programmes ALONE as u suggest

 

[neehar]

While india feel wooed, what does indian pocketbook say? Can india afford to pay for the expanse in mist of financial crisis? Does this make sense among other priorities?

what crisis??
http://articles.economictimes.india...88805_1_rbi-governor-nri-funds-raghuram-rajan
http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/10/25/markets-deutsche-idINDEE99O02E20131025
we got fresh forex reserves thanx to our rbi governor ,our sensex broke all time record at 21000 points and set to break 22000 by the end of year.rupee has gained from 68 to about 61 ..things are not so bad here.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Abingdonboy.

Enough FUNDS for MMRCA & FGFA

ARE YOU SURE.

WE ARE talking upwards of $60 billion in total which includes

$25 billion in total for 126 rafale including decades worth of weapons and future upgrades to mk4 as planned by dassult

$35 BILLION for FGFA estimated which includes $5 billion of india,s share of development cost and $30 bilion to 144 fighters and the weapons and the infrascture to license buuild these in india.

even over 15 years its $4 billion a year..

WATS left for more trainers more helos, more transports SAMS and radars. TEJAS LCA
WATS left for the massive NAVY plans with 3 carriers and 30 warships
WATS left for the complete modernisation of a 1 million man army
OUR NUKE TRIAD & 5 NUKE SUBS.

i AM NOT SAYING we cant spend $60 billion in 15 years HECK i expect india to spend twice THAT AMOUNT.

BUT not on 2 fighter programmes ALONE as u suggest

Easily!


By 2020 India will be spending in excess of $100BN a YEAR on defence. The figures quoted are a tad exaggerated around $50 BN in all seems more realistic and it's 20 year payment period for the Rafale, probably longer for the FGFA so where's the problem?


You are literally plucking dramas and issues out of thin air.

 

[sancho]

Importing 25-30 jets directly from France is a good idea...lets see..

If you want to increase the number, it must be 36 at least, since that would be 2 x full squads. I think it all depends on the total number that we will buy. If we remain with 126, we will stick with the 1 squadron from France, since HAL won't let go too many fighters from their production lines, nor would we get any offsets in return for the once build in France. If we go for the optional 64 however, I would love to see 3 squads delivered by Dassault from the start and the remaining 136 build by HAL, that would extend HALs production line beyond 2021 and would give IAF the badly needed punch within a few years!
Another problem however, seems to be that we want some customisations that suits more to our requirements, so it needs to be seen how fast they can be integrated, or if IAF would compromise with 1-3 squads of F3+ that later would be upgraded to their needs? Recent news from France said, that the Qatar might get Rafale before India, since they would select the same French config, unlike India.

 

[Dash]

If you want to increase the number, it must be 36 at least, since that would be 2 x full squads. I think it all depends on the total number that we will buy. If we remain with 126, we will stick with the 1 squadron from France, since HAL won't let go too many fighters from their production lines, nor would we get any offsets in return for the once build in France. If we go for the optional 64 however, I would love to see 3 squads delivered by Dassault from the start and the remaining 136 build by HAL, that would extend HALs production line beyond 2021 and would give IAF the badly needed punch within a few years!
Another problem however, seems to be that we want some customisations that suits more to our requirements, so it needs to be seen how fast they can be integrated, or if IAF would compromise with 1-3 squads of F3+ that later would be upgraded to their needs? Recent news from France said, that the Qatar might get Rafale before India, since they would select the same French config, unlike India.

I think the issue here is the difference between Dassult and HAL. MOD wants to give Dassult an extra off the shelve number in order to give the elbow room for HAL to make a production line which can produce Rafale.

The offset return here is a secondary issue today as its the same situation that DCNS had with MDL. I agree 36 would be 'the' ideal number to get 2 full squadrons+ enough time for HAL and Dassult to sort out production issues.

I for best would want Dassult to set up an end to end jet manufacturing industry for HAL as a part of offset requirement just like Boeing did for C-17 and P8i as we wanted a high altitude testing units. IMO that should be the way to go..before we start absorbing any tech first let us make ourselves capable for intake and leap forward..

The additional 64 will be excercized for sure just like we did with any other fighter.

additionaly, do u have any info about the customizations we are looking for? I seriously dont know what customization we can do to an already so much customized multirole aircraft.

 

[janon]

Wouldn't you say 40, Dash? If I am not mistaking, the IAF runs on a 34 AC Squadron format?
So that 34 + 6 experimentation testing birds and this unit can carry formation of some newer pilots as the locally produced machines trickle in?
...
Tay.

The IAF's squadrons are 20 aircrafts on average, with 2 or 3 being two seat variants. The MKI squadrons are 16 each, since they are all two seaters anyway. The Rafale squadrons will have 18 each, probably 16 single seaters and 2 twin seaters. That is why the number to be purchased directly from France is set at 18, to raise the first squadron.

 

[Taygibay]

Thank you for the precisions, Janon! Then I guess Dash's initial claim was correct if added to the 18 ACs from the standard deal/order. 25 would give 7 extra birds on a second squadron with the original 18 counted in which gives the leeway for testing and experimenting. Which also joins Sancho's remark as 18 ( std MMRCA deal ) +18 + 7 = 43.
It leaves 146 ( on the 189 total figure ) to be made in India by HAL with possible retrofit of the earlier examples ( 25 ).
By the way, that suggestion by Sancho of an introduction of these 25 machines at the present French F3+ ( AKA F3-04T ) would most likely solve the timetable problem by allowing the deliveries of the initial 18 lot if done in second to be at Indian Standard?
The AESA is there; the only true lack would be for the KH-31P but India has those on the MKI anyhow?
Check the dates for that : next French F3R standard is slated for 2018. Then the lower induction rate wished for by the government for monetary reasons is 26-27 planes over the next 4-5 years? Fortuitous coincidence indeed?
25 extra from the supplemental lot if the contract progression/conditions could be found stable enough to take the plunge NOW ( or say in the next 4-5 months ) would solve everyone's problems? French govt meets its reduce prod. mark / GoI stabilizes the deal and limits chit-chat / IAF can start to fly its next bird next summer as examples are pulled out of AdlA planned deliveries?
Apart from the Chinese, the only unhappy party would be the AdlA but then again, they already are?

Good day all, Tay.

 

[Abingdonboy]

If you want to increase the number, it must be 36 at least, since that would be 2 x full squads. I think it all depends on the total number that we will buy. If we remain with 126, we will stick with the 1 squadron from France, since HAL won't let go too many fighters from their production lines, nor would we get any offsets in return for the once build in France. If we go for the optional 64 however, I would love to see 3 squads delivered by Dassault from the start and the remaining 136 build by HAL, that would extend HALs production line beyond 2021 and would give IAF the badly needed punch within a few years!
Another problem however, seems to be that we want some customisations that suits more to our requirements, so it needs to be seen how fast they can be integrated, or if IAF would compromise with 1-3 squads of F3+ that later would be upgraded to their needs? Recent news from France said, that the Qatar might get Rafale before India, since they would select the same French config, unlike India.

I simply don't see how Qatar could get Rafales BEFORE India if India signs BEFORE Qatar. The RFI for the MMRCA said first deliveries of the full Indian-spec birds within 36 months, this is non-negotiable and Dassualt were well aware of this going into the MMRCA competition.

 

[sancho]

I think the issue here is the difference between Dassult and HAL. MOD wants to give Dassult an extra off the shelve number in order to give the elbow room for HAL to make a production line which can produce Rafale.

The offset return here is a secondary issue today as its the same situation that DCNS had with MDL. I agree 36 would be 'the' ideal number to get 2 full squadrons+ enough time for HAL and Dassult to sort out production issues.

There is no indication for that MoD or even IAF wants to divert any share to Dassault, infact they kept saying that only 18 will be build by Dassault. Even the decision to add the last 42 x MKIs to HALs production line, while a production in Russia would speed up induction and increase the squad number again, shows, that MoD and IAF are ok with that. That's also one reason why we kept producing the Jaguars for so long, because we could produce them, not because they would be useful, that's why I don't have much hope for more Rafales from France.
Also the offset is one of the most important issues for MoD, that's why we remained with 6 x Scorpenes build in India, even the delays will be a problem.

The additional 64 will be excercized for sure just like we did with any other fighter.

additionaly, do u have any info about the customizations we are looking for? I seriously dont know what customization we can do to an already so much customized multirole aircraft.

If we go for the additional, we should not wait till the 126 are inducted, like we usually do and order them right away to not delay things further and increase the numbers build in France. If we add them later only, we logically will add them to HALs production line, so no speed up of induction.
Customisations can include IRST and HMS, which are required by the MMRCA RFP, but are not important for the French forces at the moment. FSO and Topsight will be produced via the Thales / Samtel JV in India anyway and as all official reports show, the FSO IR channel is still available as an option (not produced in France anymore, so most likely diverted to India as part of the offsets).
Targeting pods - We know that the Thales and Rafael are in a competition for IAF and I am pretty sure that we go for the Israeli pod, with an upgrade of the already available Litening 3 pods. The only chance for Thales would be a joined development and production offer of their NG pod, otherwise it's a no go for IAF.
Weapons - AASM is available in 250Kg versions mainly, the 1000Kg version is still avaiting funding and lost to the Spice 2000 (lb) in the competition for the M2K-5, so it's likely that IAF will add the same and HOPEFULY!!! SPICE 250 quadpacks as well (cheaper than AASM and can be carried in higher numbers). Not to forget that we have some own weapons under development, that could be added (Sudarshan, Helina, Brahmos mini).
Avionics - Samtel, or HAL produce modern MFD's as well, also IAF seems to prefer UV MAWS compared to the IR DDM NG. Not sure, but highly important would be a data link version that is compatible to our AWACS and other fighters like the MKI. The NATO link 16 isn't, so that should be a customized version too.
What I would love, but won't come for sure, would be CFTs. Dassault has developed and tested prototypes, but it still only an option for potential export customers. They would highly increase Rafales capabilities!