Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Hindustan Fighter]

I have one question.
India had originally allocated 42000 Rs (which as per current exchange rate comes to $9 billion) for the 126 mmrca. I believe that this amount includes the cost of ToT and spares parts.
Most of the people here want Rafale, Typhoon because the seem to be best fighters on offer.
Now if we look at the final bid submitted by the respective manufacturers for Brazilian fighter competition for 36 fighters, we will have following figures
Rafale- 10.2 $ Billion (6.2$ bn for jets and 4$ bn for maintenance )
Super hornet- 7.6 $ Bn (5.7 $ Bn for jet and rest for maintenance)
Gripen Ng- 6 $ bn (4.5 $ bn for jet and rest for maintenance)

Considering the above figures what would the cost for our 126 jets. If we thing of rafale the cost of jets alone would go to around 16-18 $ Bn + maintenance (spares)cost would be around 6-8 $ Bn, with total cost as high as 22 to 26 $ billion.
-Friends to you thinks India Government can stretch the initial allocated money (around 10$ Bn) to such a great extend.
-Also don't you guys think that if jets like gripen IN, Mig 35 or F16-IN if they fulfill requirements stated by IAF and costing around 10 to 12 $Bn would be more logical options.

 

[chachag]

I have one question.
India had originally allocated 42000 Rs (which as per current exchange rate comes to $9 billion) for the 126 mmrca. I believe that this amount includes the cost of ToT and spares parts.
Most of the people here want Rafale, Typhoon because the seem to be best fighters on offer.
Now if we look at the final bid submitted by the respective manufacturers for Brazilian fighter competition for 36 fighters, we will have following figures
Rafale- 10.2 $ Billion (6.2$ bn for jets and 4$ bn for maintenance )
Super hornet- 7.6 $ Bn (5.7 $ Bn for jet and rest for maintenance)
Gripen Ng- 6 $ bn (4.5 $ bn for jet and rest for maintenance)

Considering the above figures what would the cost for our 126 jets. If we thing of rafale the cost of jets alone would go to around 16-18 $ Bn + maintenance (spares)cost would be around 6-8 $ Bn, with total cost as high as 22 to 26 $ billion.
-Friends to you thinks India Government can stretch the initial allocated money (around 10$ Bn) to such a great extend.
-Also don't you guys think that if jets like gripen IN, Mig 35 or F16-IN if they fulfill requirements stated by IAF and costing around 10 to 12 $Bn would be more logical options.

But their are one correction they submit their bid in Brazil only for 36 fighter and we want 126 (may be 200) and second thing after first 18 aircrafts rest will be made in India so cost per unit also decreases by this.

 

[Hindustan Fighter]

But their are one correction they submit their bid in Brazil only for 36 fighter and we want 126 (may be 200) and second thing after first 18 aircrafts rest will be made in India so cost per unit also decreases by this.

No even Brazil is going to produce them locally with ToT, same as Indian requirements. I dont think its going to cost us any less then the one i stated above. Also Brazil is likely to complete negotiations this year but India wont complete negotiations before 2012. This further 2 yrs gap might increase the cost further. Generally it is know that fighter jets cost increase by around 10% every year.

 

[Dash]

But their are one correction they submit their bid in Brazil only for 36 fighter and we want 126 (may be 200) and second thing after first 18 aircrafts rest will be made in India so cost per unit also decreases by this.

True, the economy of scale will apply here and you will see much more complex pricing here, but low.

However the same will happen in Brazil too. These are just the bids and not the final negotiations. Coz there you will include weapons package, Number of aircraft you are buying. The bid in Brazil was suppiled before Euro went down, now that Eoru went down by 25% then expect a lower bid.

Hang on guys, we will see the better picture in coming month.

 

[gogbot]

I have one question.
India had originally allocated 42000 Rs (which as per current exchange rate comes to $9 billion) for the 126 mmrca. I believe that this amount includes the cost of ToT and spares parts.
Most of the people here want Rafale, Typhoon because the seem to be best fighters on offer.
Now if we look at the final bid submitted by the respective manufacturers for Brazilian fighter competition for 36 fighters, we will have following figures
Rafale- 10.2 $ Billion (6.2$ bn for jets and 4$ bn for maintenance )
Super hornet- 7.6 $ Bn (5.7 $ Bn for jet and rest for maintenance)
Gripen Ng- 6 $ bn (4.5 $ bn for jet and rest for maintenance)

Considering the above figures what would the cost for our 126 jets. If we thing of rafale the cost of jets alone would go to around 16-18 $ Bn + maintenance (spares)cost would be around 6-8 $ Bn, with total cost as high as 22 to 26 $ billion.
-Friends to you thinks India Government can stretch the initial allocated money (around 10$ Bn) to such a great extend.
-Also don't you guys think that if jets like gripen IN, Mig 35 or F16-IN if they fulfill requirements stated by IAF and costing around 10 to 12 $Bn would be more logical options.

those prices are no where near final , even if they are our prices

There is one round of price competitiveness for Short listing , another one after .

And more negotiations after winner is selected

 

[Sri]

Hey the following link states diff numbers for brazil (courtesy Saurab)

Sarkozy to Brazil with fighter jet bid looming | Siasat

Brazil's air force has not given a price tag for the 36 jets, which it hopes to have delivered by 2014. But the private Agencia Estado news service said it could be between $2.2 billion and $2.5 billion. The total number of jets ordered could also increase up to 100.

Saab's Brazilian combat jet deal is slipping

how far the above info in links is correct?

 

[sancho]

I have one question.
India had originally allocated 42000 Rs (which as per current exchange rate comes to $9 billion) for the 126 mmrca. I believe that this amount includes the cost of ToT and spares parts.
Most of the people here want Rafale, Typhoon because the seem to be best fighters on offer.
Now if we look at the final bid submitted by the respective manufacturers for Brazilian fighter competition for 36 fighters, we will have following figures
Rafale- 10.2 $ Billion (6.2$ bn for jets and 4$ bn for maintenance )
Super hornet- 7.6 $ Bn (5.7 $ Bn for jet and rest for maintenance)
Gripen Ng- 6 $ bn (4.5 $ bn for jet and rest for maintenance)

Considering the above figures what would the cost for our 126 jets. If we thing of rafale the cost of jets alone would go to around 16-18 $ Bn + maintenance (spares)cost would be around 6-8 $ Bn, with total cost as high as 22 to 26 $ billion.
-Friends to you thinks India Government can stretch the initial allocated money (around 10$ Bn) to such a great extend.
-Also don't you guys think that if jets like gripen IN, Mig 35 or F16-IN if they fulfill requirements stated by IAF and costing around 10 to 12 $Bn would be more logical options.

I said it often enough, but not get bored to say it again. The cost per fighter is different in any competition, because it depends mainly on the numbers that will be ordered, or if it is a licence production, what parts and weapons will be included an so on.

Saabs (expected) proposal for Brazil like you said $6 billion (system price, including weapons, spares, training...) for 36 Gripen NG, which means $166,6 per fighter.

Saabs proposal for Norway was $4,77 billions (systemprice) for 48 Gripen NG, which means $99,3 millions per fighter.

Saabs proposal for Netherlands was $5,81 billions (systemprice) for 85 Gripen NG, which means $68,3 millions per fighter.

As you can see, numbers makes the biggest difference and the MMRCA is for at least 126, which could be increased to 200.

 

[sancho]

Hey the following link states diff numbers for brazil (courtesy Saurab)

Sarkozy to Brazil with fighter jet bid looming | Siasat


Saab's Brazilian combat jet deal is slipping

how far the above info in links is correct?

The Brazilian Air Force have indeed the need to replace nearly 100 fighters, that is also one reason why they prefer Gripen NG, because it has low unit and operational costs and they could order more of them. Their MoD instead is looking for an reliable and sanction prove strategic partner for the future, because Brazil is like India an emerging country and needs to be less dependend from US. And these are exactly the points that are Gripen NGs disadvantages, dependence on other countries like US and no political, or strategic advantages.
The Rafale and France are the only contender that offers anything what Brazil wants, the only downside are the higher costs, that's why it's more than doubtful that anybody else than Rafale will win there.

 

[flanker143]

what are the specs of specs of captor ?

is su 30 mki getting mlu ?? , if yes the what kind of package is expected ??

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

well there are some words about "Typhoon"

i am not so sure but this the word...

 

[flanker143]

what are the specs of captor radar ?

are they comparable to that of bars ??

is su 30 mki getting mlu ?? , if yes the what kind of package is expected ??

 

[sam27]

Have few opinions that are bothering me:
1) Mig 35 is not gonna win simply because the whole point of MMRCA is diversification.
2) Choosing U.S. planes would certainly would not pass a good signal to China who would feel hostile and see India as next American base.
3) If we do not choose U.S. fighters than there would be lot of issues regarding Gripen, possibly denial of systems.
4) Euro zone collectively does not offer any international leverage to us.
5) Rafale, has not had any export experience. I mean it has not exported the planes to any country so timeline could be drawn?

So wt is the best option in this case?

 

[saurabh]

Have few opinions that are bothering me:
1) Mig 35 is not gonna win simply because the whole point of MMRCA is diversification.

Agreed, it must not be chosen for several reasons.

2) Choosing U.S. planes would certainly would not pass a good signal to China who would feel hostile and see India as next American base.

China is mature enough to not think like that, and we are purchasing the fighters for our security, not to flatter the Chinese.

3) If we do not choose U.S. fighters than there would be lot of issues regarding Gripen, possibly denial of systems.

Why would US do so. If its fighters are not chosen, Gripen means little income indirectly.

4) Euro zone collectively does not offer any international leverage to us.

IAF would not care for such leverage. Besides, we have lot more to offer the west that a just 10Bn $ deal. Lot more, so this deal may be used for what it is, selecting suitable jet for need of our air-force.

5) Rafale, has not had any export experience. I mean it has not exported the planes to any country so timeline could be drawn?

Rafale would be in French airforce for a long time, they would go for upgrades, no prob there. Manufacturing would be in India, so we would decide production timeline. Also, since we would have (if chosen) significant share of total planes, we would hold a greater say for future upgrades etc.

 

[gogbot]

Have few opinions that are bothering me:
1) Mig 35 is not gonna win simply because the whole point of MMRCA is diversification.

That is not the priority but only an opportunity.

As long as the deal is what suits the IAF can it can in some way hopefully better our aviation industry any plane may be chosen.

But mig-35 still not ready and may cause delays , until that is sorted out no mig-35 deal , in my opinion

2) Choosing U.S. planes would certainly would not pass a good signal to China who would feel hostile and see India as next American base.

Worse yet , US planes come with a slew of restrictions
all of which we should try avoid.

If US wants to sell to India , they agree to our terms not us agreeing to theirs.

OF course this doe's not always apply , but you get the basic idea.

3) If we do not choose U.S. fighters than there would be lot of issues regarding Gripen, possibly denial of systems.

US is not petty , and it knows if it crosses us on something like this , we may not trust them any time soon. By showing us their reliability as a 3rd party supplier, they better their chances in future deals.

4) Euro zone collectively does not offer any international leverage to us.

It offers us huge international pull , with many Eruo zone nations , including France and Briton who still have Security council seats if you don't remember.

As well as some of the largest and wealthiest economies . And of course the political influence that comes with.

5) Rafale, has not had any export experience. I mean it has not exported the planes to any country so timeline could be drawn?

Dassult makes the Raffale and has exported planes to India before .
the Dassult Mirage for example.

they are reliable suppliers with whom we have past experience with.

So wt is the best option in this case?

I don't think the Mig-35 is ready
The Americans come with to much baggage

It is a European Option.

its only down side is expense. which is better then the Russian and US problems.

Rafale , to expensive , but good plane meets out needs TOT plus AESA source code.

Eurofighter , very expensive , very good craft , i think it meets our need . ToT + plus euro-fighter partnership. Very interesting but also very long term investment into a very expensive plane. (you get more than just a plane with this one)

Saab Gripen , affordable , good craft , perfectly fits out needs , it has super cruise , tot.

People keep telling me Gripen fit's needs best , pilots say plane is very intuitive

I think politically Euro fighter would be best. Technically its also the most capable.

Rafale , i suppose it tries to strike a balance between the other two.
but not really , its a good strike fighter , similar to our mirages so easier to train and induct

But only Gripen And EF can Super cruise , so that will tell you what kind of craft they are.

the choice
Its really like Efficiency(Saab) versus effectiveness(EF) .

efficiency means "doing the thing right," effectiveness means "doing the right thing."

 

[flanker143]

besides being the best jet in the mmrca the eurofighter is coming with the best over all deal...with all those frills and trills ......ef patnership ...ej200 ....etc etc

and to make that even better it is now going to be 25% cheaper.....

i am eagerly waiting to see IAF insignia on it !!!!