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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

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It is a European Option.

its only down side is expense. which is better then the Russian and US problems.

Rafale , to expensive , but good plane meets out needs TOT plus AESA source code.

Eurofighter , very expensive , very good craft , i think it meets our need . ToT + plus euro-fighter partnership. Very interesting but also very long term investment into a very expensive plane. (you get more than just a plane with this one)

Saab Gripen , affordable , good craft , perfectly fits out needs , it has super cruise , tot.

People keep telling me Gripen fit's needs best , pilots say plane is very intuitive

I think politically Euro fighter would be best. Technically its also the most capable.

Rafale , i suppose it tries to strike a balance between the other two.
but not really , its a good strike fighter , similar to our mirages so easier to train and induct

But only Gripen And EF can Super cruise , so that will tell you what kind of craft they are.

the choice
Its really like Efficiency(Saab) versus effectiveness(EF) .

I agree with you that the choice must be a European, but I disagree about some other points. What exactly do you think is "our needs"?

You said all would fit it, but although EF, Rafale and Gripen NG are have similar delta wing / canard designs and are aimed on high manouverability as well as low RCSs, their roles are still different. EF and Gripen NG are mainly aimed on A2A, Gripen NG as an light weight interceptor and the EF as an air superiority fighter. That's why SC and maximum speed are more important for them, than payload, or range, but only the EF will have a radar with comparable long ranges like the Flankers for example.
The Rafale instead is aimed on omni role capabilitie, means same maneouverability, low RCS, to be good in WVR and BVR, but because it was designed as a carrier fighter too, range and payload was important too.
The only point where the Rafale lacks behind the EF is radar diameter, and top speed, but not in t/w ratios, manouverability, or technologies. That's why I always say, it is way closer to EF in A2A, than the EF would be to Rafale in A2G.

Imo, the focus of IAF can't be A2A, because we already induct numbers of ne fighters that has A2A mainly in mind too (LCA light weight interceptors and MKI/ Pak Fa air superiority fighters) and that's exactly the reason why neither Gripen NG, nor EF with less developed A2G capabilities would fit.

The other point is the EF partnership, it is not an equal partnership, it's only for the production of avionics. We won't have any say fur further developments, or upgrades, 3 of the 4 members have higher orders than our 126 fighters.
On the other side, there is no other competition where Rafale could get such a big order than in MMRCA, which means, even if they win Brazil, UAE and Kuwait like it seems, we still would have the second highest order besides France itself. So where are the higher chances of a partnership that would be worth it?
Kaveri-Snecma engine, Topsight HMD, MBDA partnership for weapons, Maitri SAM JV, not to forget that EADS is half French too, all strong points that shows the chances of a good Indo-French strategic partnership.

The last point is Gripen NG, because from the European fighters offers clearly the least ToT, economical, or political advantages. Saab is as depended on other companies, or assistance like we are on LCA. So both must be added as disadvantages for it, not as advantages.

Only Rafale offers advantages in all regards that would be important for us, be it A2A/A2G for IAF and IN, be it economical advantages with parterships, or JV, or even political advantages in strategic terms.
 
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besides being the best jet in the mmrca the eurofighter is coming with the best over all deal...with all those frills and trills ......ef patnership ...ej200 ....etc etc

and to make that even better it is now going to be 25% cheaper.....

i am eagerly waiting to see IAF insignia on it !!!!

ALL European fighters will be cheaper, not only the EF, because the Euro droped so much!
 
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only if calculations were that easy..we will be paying them in euros not in $..as we know in our reserve we have a fair amount of euros ...
 
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Some might already know the results of the exercises of EF, Rafale... last year in the UAE, but here is an excerpt from an aviation magazin report, that adds some more interesting infos:

Versatility is not an empty word.

Better yet, december 7, a pair of Rafale which protected a SAR combat device shot down 10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets forty km far , everything without leaving their CAP racetrack.In addition, the Rafale OSF allowed the positive identification of hostile fighters forty kilometers far. And, December 6, a MICA has been assigned its target - indeed virtually destroyed - only with the SPECTRA system. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify - and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope - some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the American F-16 CJ specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect.. Certainly, the F-16 CJ in question had not been equipped during the flights with their common SEAD equipment, namely the HTS pod (HARM Targeting System), while their threats library had not been refreshed to integrate some of the air defense radars in the area. SEAD was not their daily mission. But it was not either the case for the Rafale. And yet, the Spectra, with no other equipment than those onboard daily, has done better than the F-16 CJ which, however, are specialized in the SEAD mission. That's the difference between multirole who need to return to land on its base to switch from one type to another mission and versatility that allows flight operations at the same time in different roles. It also demonstrates, incidentally, the ability of the AdA to quickly take advantage of "hostile" ground-radar records tunes operated the day before and to integrate them into the rafale SPECTRA library. This allowed the Rafale to classify them without any difficulty. In short, the performance was moderately appreciated by our American allies! Especially since the six F-22 Raptor deployed there by the 27th FW Langley FS/1st proved incapable of giving the beating promised to the Rafale. Of the six dofights - gun limited - which pitted the two types of aircraft in the Emirians skies in late 2009, only two saw the virtual destruction of a Rafale. Other meetings were concluded without a winner. A "performance" for the Rafale against the most modern [and most expensive] fighter in the world, presented as particularly agile thanks to its steering nozzles and moreover stealthy. Because the Rafale was, according to the lieutenant-colonel Grandclaudon, "a serious challenger in matter of maneuverability " And the french pilot to regret that his USAF colleagues had not allowed the simulated employment of MICA missiles during these confrontations.

The Typhoon were inferiors.

Concurrently, November 16, the Rafale gave, according to the french pilot, a memorable beating to the RAF Typhoon - the most recent version - which were also deployed in the UAE for the ATLC. To put it bluntly, Lieutenant-Colonel Grandclaudon said the two air battles - battles with IR-guided missile and cannon - which opposed Rafale and Typhoon gave a score of 7 wins for the first and 0 for the second, the only Rafale considered as having been destroyed flew below the allowed flight floor! Obviously this statement has immediately raised an outcry among British pilots, relayed by the media and the Anglo-Saxon specialized blogosphere, including claims that the Typhoon did not fly as such during the fighting, but simulated "red" attackers, MiG-29 and Su-27 in that case. So, the 1/7 Provence squadron leader made a point to recall that 2 of his Rafale were also"red chest" (MiG-29 index "Charlie") when they shot down 4 "blue" Typhoon - flying as Typhoon - while being reduced to use virtual russians AA-10C missiles to be guided by the Rafale until the impact on their target, which forbade to shoot multiple targets at once . For Fabrice Grandclaudon, the limitations of the "red" plastron role don't prevent a weapons system to show its real capabilities, because the pilots are taking advantage of the real human-machine interfaces and sensors on board, one of the Rafale has benefited from a refresh of its tactical situation by his teammate via Link-16. In other words, even if some of them simluated Su-27, the British pilots virtually shoot down were using the sensors and the avionics of their Typhoon and not those of a Su-27! And the french pilot to recognize, with great sportsmanship, that the Typhoon pilots who had been opposed to the Rafale the week preceding the ATLC were young and relatively inexperienced, as the French already benefits from lessons learned from 3 operational detachments in Afghanistan (one year of presence in all) and 4 of its pilots had participated in Red Flag 2008.

Some advantages that make the difference.

However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale's systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compares the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decides if it is or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronic RBE2 radar - The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna - allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope.. To point the nose toward the target and to design it to the weapons system in the absence of a viewfinder-HMD while operating at very low speed. What are not necessarily capable of the main opponents of the Rafale ...

Well obviously, one should not rejoice in excess. The extremely positive results of these meetings have been obtained in special circumstances. The pilots had been set specific roles by the commander of the COMAO device and were therefore not free to exploit in depth all the potentials of their weapons system. The results have been different perhaps in other circumstances (nevertheless, some time ago, another meeting between Typhoon and Rafale, in Corsica, was also turned into "massacre" at the expense of the first 8 losses to 0 ). But, simply put, the EC 1 / 7 pilots are particularly satisfied with their stay in UAE. Their demonstration has , aptly, made a strong buzz [noise] among the aviators of the region and troubled the Anglo-Saxons until now convinced of the utter superiority of their planes...


To sum the main points up:

- 2 Rafales shot down 10 enemy fighters, while attacking 6 different ground targets that were up to 40Km away!

- A Rafale shot down a target guided just by its EWS!

- from 6 dogfights with guns only against the F22, 4 went to draw and only 2 Rafale was killed!

- in 2 different exercises the Rafale engaged the EF in 16 air combats, won 15 of if and was shot down only a single time!
 
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ALL European fighters will be cheaper, not only the EF, because the Euro droped so much!

no offends my friend but i never said that 'only' ef is going to be cheaper !
 
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Some might already know the results of the exercises of EF, Rafale... last year in the UAE, but here is an excerpt from an aviation magazin report, that adds some more interesting infos:




To sum the main points up:

- 2 Rafales shot down 10 enemy fighters, while attacking 6 different ground targets that were up to 40Km away!

- A Rafale shot down a target guided just by its EWS!

- from 6 dogfights with guns only against the F22, 4 went to draw and only 2 Rafale was killed!

- in 2 different exercises the Rafale engaged the EF in 16 air combats, won 15 of if and was shot down only a single time!


I must say, sancho u r the die-hard fan of RAFALE - just like me. :cheers:
 
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i am really tired of all this plzz tell which one is the best --eft or rafale ???????
 
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Eft if funded or developed , nothing comes closer .
None of others except Mig35 can come close to flight performance and T/W ratio of Eurofighter .
Problem is its swash-plate AESA / A2G weapons

Rafle currently is underpowered , but still is better multi-role than Eurobird .
One it has stand-off capability ,
second RBE2 is integrated and tested
but keep in mind Till Meteor enters service Rafale will only fire MICA with max range = 60kms .
While Eurofighter can fire AMRAAM , it's tested and integrated
 
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will we be able integrate our weapons like astra etc with typhoon ?? same for rafale ??
 
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Eft if funded or developed , nothing comes closer .
None of others except Mig35 can come close to flight performance and T/W ratio of Eurofighter .
Problem is its swash-plate AESA / A2G weapons

Rafle currently is underpowered , but still is better multi-role than Eurobird .
One it has stand-off capability ,
second RBE2 is integrated and tested
but keep in mind Till Meteor enters service Rafale will only fire MICA with max range = 60kms .
While Eurofighter can fire AMRAAM , it's tested and integrated
But Rafale has an open architecture, cant we integrate R77 in it. Will they allow?
 
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Dear flanker
Yes we can , but who will integrate them and who who will bear the cost .
If IAF takes it upon itself , cost+expertise is one thing .
We need software API / Source codes of Radar , Wepaon control computer , Modular central processor etc everything .
In case of Rafale - even SPECTRA is able to provide launch , we need code sequence for them as well .

And are you ready to provide the source code of your missiles to Foreign Engineers .
 
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Eft if funded or developed , nothing comes closer .
None of others except Mig35 can come close to flight performance and T/W ratio of Eurofighter .
Problem is its swash-plate AESA / A2G weapons

So the only issue , is funding and developing a plane , that the suppliers want India to be a partner of.

So we choose the Euro-Fighter , we become a partner on the program , Euro-Fighter consortium has access to most European tech
As long as we have a willingness to buy , all partners including India would pool resources to make the "Indo-fighter" .

Ideally speaking of course.

But this just seem's win-win to me , with the only thing being burnt being money.
May be the MoD can bear some of the cost , to develop our aviation industry.

Buy planes , become partner , develop plane , get one of the most capable aircraft in the world , as a stake holding supplier.

Am i being naive is this partner thing just eye wash , or can this be done.

Rafle currently is underpowered , but still is better multi-role than Eurobird .
One it has stand-off capability ,
second RBE2 is integrated and tested
but keep in mind Till Meteor enters service Rafale will only fire MICA with max range = 60kms .
While Eurofighter can fire AMRAAM , it's tested and integrated

IAF has a fit when it come's to underpowered aircraft . The Tejas Mk-I for example.

I don't fancy the Rafale chances now.
 
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But Rafale has an open architecture, cant we integrate R77 in it. Will they allow?

Everyone has same architecture , Mil1553std buses .
First of all Russians would never agree , second we have bear the cost if at all possible to convince Moscow .
 
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So the only issue , is funding and developing a plane , that the suppliers want India to be a partner of.

So we choose the Euro-Fighter , we become a partner on the program , Euro-Fighter consortium has access to most European tech
As long as we have a willingness to buy , all partners including India would pool resources to make the "Indo-fighter" .

Ideally speaking of course.

But this just seem's win-win to me , with the only thing being burnt being money.

Buy planes , become partner , develop plane , get one of the most capable aircraft in the world , as a stake holding supplier.

Am i being naive is this partner thing just eye wash , or can this be done.



IAF has a fit when it come's to underpowered aircraft . The Tejas Mk-I for example.

I don't fancy the Rafale chances now.

Time is one thing which Enemy is not giving us , cost if MoD is ready .
why waste 3 years like we did for MKI to develop a customized version .
If they cant see beyond IL-78 to see the benefits of A330 , i doubt money being spent like UAE does .

Mig21,27 have crossed their expiry date / air-frame life is past even date of super-expiry .
We need numbers and fast replacements as soon as possible .

With HAL stuck at 8-10 MKI per year , max 8-LCA per year .
Don't be surprised IAF operating at SQ strength of 25
 
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max 8-LCA per year

but hal says building the lca wud take much less time because high %age of composite materials used in it ......

and also lca is much smaller than mki so why such a small rate of production ??

should be near 20 or more
 
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