Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

MMRCA might be a “STRIKER”

BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Sources in IAF have informed idrw.org that, while Indian air force is closely monitoring performance of every aircraft which have come to India for trials, but more closely to weapons testing of the aircraft’s which have been done in India and also in the vendor country. Indian air force wants to induct aircraft which are Multi-role which literally means that Aircraft can perform both role of a fighter aircraft and a ground attack aircraft.

Defence Expert Rajesh Sharma further explains that concept of Multi-role aircraft’s have only came in 1980’s period. Multi-role aircraft’s are designed to perform equally good both in Aerial combat and also in ground strike, but each aircraft is different in performance and design, Combination ratio of Aerial combat and Strike platform in each multirole aircraft will not be the same, Even when Sukhoi-30 mki is considered as Multi-role aircraft’s, but its superb aeronautic maneuverability and high AOA (Angle of Attack) makes it more closer to Air superiority fighter then a strike aircraft.

In our previous report we have mentioned that almost half the fleet of Mig-27 will be retired in next five years, and Mig-27 and Jaguar are backbone of the strike fleet in Indian air force. So now it seems that Aircraft with better Strike capability might gain some extra points in the MMRCA competition. Idrw.org don’t have any information in regards to which aircraft is doing better in this capacity but LEH testing with full payload was done to see which aircraft can also be able to carry highest payload in worst weather condition aircraft might encounter in India .

Just as I thought and that again hints clearly to F18SH and Rafale!

 

[sancho]

Look at the comparison of Missile that sums up what i am saying .
Python5 is not even integrated , ASTRA is still away from operational capability while Gripen has fired AMRAAM/METEOR and ASRAAM/IRiS-T . You are comparing a Matured platform with Speculated specs , way too early .

Radar is not E/L 2052 , it will be LRDE product , 2052 has just been offered like Zhuk-AE . Its not final . Till then LRDE radar giving performance of VIXEN1000 is just speculation .

Engine is not finalized yet , you might very well see same Engine .
Let LCA2 leave drawing board , and you can compare them then.

What ever GripenNG we have seen is just a single demo NG tailored made for Indian tender , might be they will end up giving a machine of differnt calibre by the time LCA2 comes . Akin to Rafale block3 vs Block4.

That also brings a big question on LCA2 avionics suite , HUD whether frame-less or not .
What about Data-Links and their performance
IRST/FLIR performance .

Its just way too early to jump on conclusion that LCA2 will be at par with Gripen NG

First of all, the Gripen NG is far away of beeing mature, it is still only a prototype yet and only the engine and some weapons was integrated. Saab has decided which radar, IRST and EWS, but these techs are all only under development so far and their capabilities are also not clear yet.

I agree with you that it still should have an advantage over LCA MK2, but just compare the basic specs like design, weight, engine capabilities and thrust, weapon stations, payload, or cost-effectiveness and you will hardly find big advantages for the NG. In some fields the LCA will even have the lead, like t/w ratio, cost-effectiveness, maybe even weapon stations (2 x wingtip stations should be added without any bigger re-designs right?).
In A2A the difference of both will be very small and lies possibly only in the type of weapon they use. No doubt about it that an AMRAAM, or METEOR will be better than Astra, but that would be a comparison of the missiles, not of the fighter itself. The fact is, LCA MK 2 will be in all arms and techs at the same 4+ level as the NG and in pure fighter performance and capablities it can be very close too, it all depends on IAF/MoD which parts they will include.

Btw, the AESA radar will not be a pure indigenous, because that was rejected by IAF and now they search for an co-development parter. By the fact that we have gone with the Elta and the 2032 for similar reasons, should make them also to the first choice for an AESA radar, don't you think?
The NG will come with the same capability level that is known now, you can't compare it with Rafale F3 and F4, because F4 will only come if a foreign customer funds the further upgrades, otherwise it will be F3 standart. Saab instead don't have a foreign customer that would do so, actually they have enough problems to find customers at all (only Thailand and South Africa so far and in small numbers only, Brazil will go to France for sure).

Gripen NG will be a good fighter and if we wouldn't have the LCA, it would be a good cost-effective choice, but we have it and the other MMRCAs offers more difference to LCA, besides political, or ToT advantages.

 

[vaibhav]

If the Gripen NG does win this race; it'd be interesting indeed. In many ways, this bird fulfills both the role of an MRCA (Mirage 2000) and the LCA (Tejas). In effect it'd be a replacement of both the MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go. All this by 2013-14 in sqd. induction. Expect the order to be upped to 200 pretty quick.

Why in the world would the IAF now want an LCA mk2 or whatever that is still to be tested, proven, integrated etc? The NG quite easily performs all the roles that the Tejas could possibly hope to. Bye bye Tejas. Welcome Tejas Redux: AMCA - the next project for the technocrats to play with.

The IAF's biggest requirement is operational performance - quick turnaround, high uptimes, multirole/self escorting ability, hi-fi EW, ECM, Radar, data link, proven design. The single engined Gripen with a host of sensors (AESA, IRST), internal EW suite (ELS, MAWS, LWS, decoys etc), strong datalink, cheap cost of operations, integration of 3rd party weapons etc fulfills all that the IAF ever wanted including satisfying their doctrine of diversification. No wonder they gave it another shot.

Oh yes, they may order some token Tejas for show. Can't really blame them either since the Tejas program was hijacked by technocrats at the expense of operational needs quite early in its history. THis of course means a relatively steep learning curve and longer time frames/delays. Now where is that damned new engine for the Mk2; the requirement iirc was felt way back in 2008 (the good col. shukla had suggested october 2008 as the deadline decision). 2 years gone by and no decision yet. Ditto with the BVR missile. The Saab folks made a decision for the 414 over the EJ-200 real quick, offered it on the NG, and now that bird flies and clears some real tough tests 10000km from home! It seems the Meteor too has been integrated.

For the IAF as an end user, the contrast must be glaring.

 

[maithil]

^^^ copy-pasting from another place ...are we..?

 

[anathema]

If the Gripen NG does win this race; it'd be interesting indeed. In many ways, this bird fulfills both the role of an MRCA (Mirage 2000) and the LCA (Tejas). In effect it'd be a replacement of both the MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go. All this by 2013-14 in sqd. induction. Expect the order to be upped to 200 pretty quick.

Why in the world would the IAF now want an LCA mk2 or whatever that is still to be tested, proven, integrated etc? The NG quite easily performs all the roles that the Tejas could possibly hope to. Bye bye Tejas. Welcome Tejas Redux: AMCA - the next project for the technocrats to play with.

The IAF's biggest requirement is operational performance - quick turnaround, high uptimes, multirole/self escorting ability, hi-fi EW, ECM, Radar, data link, proven design. The single engined Gripen with a host of sensors (AESA, IRST), internal EW suite (ELS, MAWS, LWS, decoys etc), strong datalink, cheap cost of operations, integration of 3rd party weapons etc fulfills all that the IAF ever wanted including satisfying their doctrine of diversification. No wonder they gave it another shot.

Oh yes, they may order some token Tejas for show. Can't really blame them either since the Tejas program was hijacked by technocrats at the expense of operational needs quite early in its history. THis of course means a relatively steep learning curve and longer time frames/delays. Now where is that damned new engine for the Mk2; the requirement iirc was felt way back in 2008 (the good col. shukla had suggested october 2008 as the deadline decision). 2 years gone by and no decision yet. Ditto with the BVR missile. The Saab folks made a decision for the 414 over the EJ-200 real quick, offered it on the NG, and now that bird flies and clears some real tough tests 10000km from home! It seems the Meteor too has been integrated.

For the IAF as an end user, the contrast must be glaring.

Vaibhav sir....atleast give credit to Mrinal.. less you are Mrinal.

 

[sancho]

If the Gripen NG does win this race; it'd be interesting indeed. In many ways, this bird fulfills both the role of an MRCA (Mirage 2000) and the LCA (Tejas). In effect it'd be a replacement of both the MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go. All this by 2013-14 in sqd. induction. Expect the order to be upped to 200 pretty quick...

Mh, not sure if this is your opinion or not, but there are points you simply forget.
Yes, Gripen NG can easily take over the roles of LCA, or Mirage 2k, because they are similar fighters for similar roles. Interceptors, with some A2G capabilties. But cancelling LCA in favour of Gripen NG would mean 2 major problems!

1. Two decades of indigenous developments and all the money wasted for nothing.

2. High reliability of foreign countries and vulnerability during war, or sanction times (high content of parts, from different origins in Gripen NG).

But LCA development was aimed exactly at the opposite, to gain experience, improve the indigenous defense industry and to be less reliant on foreign countries!

We still have several problems in the development of a 4. gen fighter, which should make clear that it is simply a dream to believe we could switch to a 5. gen development now. The focus must remain on LCA and even more on LCA MK2 with improved techs and capabilities, without this step we will just see the next big failure!

 

[vaibhav]

Mh, not sure if this is your opinion or not, but there are points you simply forget.
Yes, Gripen NG can easily take over the roles of LCA, or Mirage 2k, because they are similar fighters for similar roles. Interceptors, with some A2G capabilties. But cancelling LCA in favour of Gripen NG would mean 2 major problems!

The above post is my opinion but nt my words

1. Two decades of indigenous developments and all the money wasted for nothing.

lca program was there to fulfill the gap tht is their cause of mig 21
which it fails to fulfil on time we have gain experince from this program which we can use in are future programs

2. High reliability of foreign countries and vulnerability during war, or sanction times (high content of parts, from different origins in Gripen NG).

since lca was not able to be on time mmrca came into existence according to me gripen is the best option as it will be able to replace MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go

But LCA development was aimed exactly at the opposite, to gain experience, improve the indigenous defense industry and to be less reliant on foreign countries!

We still have several problems in the development of a 4. gen fighter, which should make clear that it is simply a dream to believe we could switch to a 5. gen development now. The focus must remain on LCA and even more on LCA MK2 with improved techs and capabilities, without this step we will just see the next big failure!

we have gain enough experince to build a 4 gen aircraft but since the requirement of air airforce is 4 ++ gen fighter right now gripen will provide the power of no b'coz of its low cost as compare to every other fighter and lower maintenace gripen ng has all tech that is present in 4++ gen fighter an we can get it from tot which we can use for are mca 5 gen aircraft.

 

[sancho]

lca program was there to fulfill the gap tht is their cause of mig 21
which it fails to fulfil on time we have gain experince from this program which we can use in are future programs

since lca was not able to be on time mmrca came into existence according to me gripen is the best option as it will be able to replace MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go

No, MMRCA come not because LCA wasn't their on time to replace Mig 21, it came alongside LCA to replace the Migs. Both will replace a part of the Mig 21 fleet, half indigenous, half foreign, the same strategy that MoD has to replace Cheetak and Cheetah/Cheetal fleet. Half will be replaced by indigenous LOH, the other by foreign LUH.

we have gain enough experince to build a 4 gen aircraft but since the requirement of air airforce is 4 ++ gen fighter right now gripen will provide the power of no b'coz of its low cost as compare to every other fighter and lower maintenace gripen ng has all tech that is present in 4++ gen fighter an we can get it from tot which we can use for are mca 5 gen aircraft.

Where do you see experience? In bulding and testing several prototypes? In developing an engine that doesn't even fly in LCA? In developing an radar that also is not integrated in LCA?
No buddy, experience will only come if we finish all these started projects, get them in operational service in numbers. Only then we gain experience to further improve them for future developments!

 

[JAMESHAWK85]

any news abt rafale

 

[SQ8]

I thought the Rafale was bought back into the race after some french diplomatic scurrying?. Apparently the IAF evaluation team rejected it since the french were holding back technical data on important aspects.

Still, it would be a surprise if the Gripen does not win. Even though the SAAB team did a boo boo by not bringing the NG. They bought a gripen D for the evaluation but were the first to demonstrate live A2A firing.

No other jet in the competition save the MiG-35 takes off in 750 feet with a full air superiority load. Loiters for 80 minutes. And can land on your mommy's porch with 4 missiles still hanging out there.
It has competitive electronics and weapons. and ill be damned if that thing just doesn't look darn handsome in IAF colors.

 

[sancho]

any news abt rafale

I hope there will be some reports from the joint exercise with our MKIs in the next days. Would love to see pics of both fighters together!

 

[sudhir007]

MP to support BAE radar bid - LEP Business - lep.co.uk

The new MP for Fylde has said he will push for Government support to develop a radar for Lancashire-built fighter jets.

Conservative Mark Menzies, who was elected to replace the retiring Michael Jack at the general election, said that developing an E-scan radar to replace the existing M-scan model for the Eurofighter Typhoon would provide a major boost to defence giant BAE Systems’ bid to land lucrative export deals.

It is known that potential buyers of the aircraft, parts for which are made at the firm’s factories in Warton and Samlesbury, near Preston, are keen for E-scan variety of radar, which provides greater scope for development.

Mr Menzies said that Defence Secretary Liam Fox was “supportive” of the potential of developing the radar, but admitted that the pressure on government budgets meant it was far from secure.

He said: “Whereas at the moment there is not a great deal of difference between the E-scan and M-scan at the moment, there is far more potential to develop the E-scan type.

“Some critics say that a customer such as Saudi Arabia does not need such a sophisticated radar because the M-scan fulfils its requirement, but if you are spending the kind of money this kind of order costs you want to be sure you are buying the best.

“If this technology gives you the edge over the likes of the US, France or the Russians, it is a worthwhile investment.”

He said there was “huge potential” for BAE to benefit from export sales with India and Japan already looking at Typhoon as a possible replacement for their existing fleets.

In an interview with the Evening Post earlier this year, Kevin Taylor, managing director of BAE’s Military Air Solutions (MAS) division, said exports were a major focus of its push for sales.

A strategic defence review due to commence later this year will look at spending within the Ministry of Defence, which has had its £40 billion budget protected for this year but is unlikely to be continued in future years.

 

[sancho]

He said there was “huge potential” for BAE to benefit from export sales with India and Japan already looking at Typhoon as a possible replacement for their existing fleets.

And that's why it is more than doubtful that they would provide ToT and source codes to a competitior like the Gripen NG, at least as long the EF is still in the competition.
Regarding the export potential of the EF, I think in the current situation, they won't win any other competition. It is a hell of a fighter and the potential for improvements is also great, but that all will come too late, because the delays in development and funding problems. With the new crisis in Europe and the Euro currency, all EF consortium members have to face big cuts in their military budgets. It is doubtful that they will fund and integrate all techs and weapons that were initially planed for the tranche 3 and they will also cut the orders. Without these improvements it won't be interesting for India, or Japan.

 

[KEETARP]

Still, it would be a surprise if the Gripen does not win. Even though the SAAB team did a boo boo by not bringing the NG. They bought a gripen D for the evaluation but were the first to demonstrate live A2A firing.

No other jet in the competition save the MiG-35 takes off in 750 feet with a full air superiority load. Loiters for 80 minutes. And can land on your mommy's porch with 4 missiles still hanging out there.
It has competitive electronics and weapons. and ill be damned if that thing just doesn't look darn handsome in IAF colors.

Pretty much sums up , my analysis as well . IAF kitty is all full with Twin-Engined Jets
MKI , MIg29 , Jagurs , PAk-Fa and if MRCA is also then ........ ,

Operational cost, Technicians + per-flight maintenance is just one factor ,
If a fighter jet can take off in Torn out bombed airfield with X-500 distance of MKI .
Can be hot-refueled in a minute .
Just sips fuel in flight from Banglore to Jaiselmer .

What else can you ask for , that is what IAF ex pilot say and echo everyday .

 

[Marxist]

Boeing to offer F-35-like cockpit display for Super Hornet

Boeing plans to offer an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet with large-area cockpit displays similar to the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter as the company pursues new foreign sales from Canada to Japan.

The cockpit upgrade for the Super Hornet is intended to equalise one of the perceived advantages offered by the F-35's multifunction, touchscreen display, which measures 8 x 20in (20 x 51cm).

Boeing has evaluated a display with the same dimensions as the F-35, but found that pilots have preferred a larger 11 x 19in screen, says F/A-18E/F programme manager Mike Gibbons.

The single display can be configured to digitally mimic the Super Hornet's existing cockpit layout, or allow pilots to overlay data from several sources on to a single screen, Gibbons says. The displays can be integrated into both seats for the F/A-18F.

The technology remains in developmental form, but can be integrated in time to meet the timelines for any future sales in foreign markets, he says. Boeing is evaluating bids from undisclosed suppliers to manufacture the displays.

The US Navy, however, has already rejected Boeing's overtures to retrofit the display on its fleet. Although Boeing believes the upgrade would reduce lifecycle maintenance costs, the service does not want to operate two different display technologies at the same time, Gibbons says.

The new cockpit display made its public debut at the Navy League exhibit hall in early May. Boeing also showed off the new technology in Ottawa in early June at the CANSEC conference and exhibition.

Boeing plans to offer the F/A-18E/F for Canada's requirement to replace its ageing CF-18 fleet later this decade. Canada has invested $150 million to participate in the F-35 development programme, but plans to stage a competition for the procurement contract.

Meanwhile, Boeing is also offering the Super Hornet to buyers in Brazil, Denmark, India, Japan and Kuwait.

The F/A-18E/F's first international buyer, Australia, has no plans to order the upgraded cockpit, having already received the first five of its 24 two-seat aircraft.

Boeing to offer F-35-like cockpit display for Super Hornet