Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[imran iqbal]

 

[sancho]

Swiss RUAG won the contract for producing parts of Rafales RBE 2 AESA radar, the first radars will be provided to French Rafales in the seconed half of next year!

Google translation:

Google Nachricht

 

[vimki]

Any idea on when the trials will be completed. I believe it should be somewhere around this year...

 

[KEETARP]

Swiss RUAG won the contract for producing parts of Rafales RBE 2 AESA radar, the first radars will be provided to French Rafales in the seconed half of next year!

Google translation:

Google Nachricht

For me ,French in-fact whole Europe Is behind America in Maturing their Radar technology.
They missed their bus right from the start-with respect to manufacturing MMICs, both commercially and militarily.Even today Europe is only beginning to catch up to where the US was in the late 1990s manufacturing them . Same goes with Russians
Still many of specs has been kept classified which creates more doubt regarding performance of most of their radars.

Their design which i assume would be based on current RBE PESA - and seeing nose dimension of fighter itself it wont support modules more than any other one esp F18. Thales product brochure only says near 1000 but dosen't specify may be 900 we dont know.

Secondly their power ratings will be a great question mark , i doubt they can achieve enough cooling to give a sustained power rating of 20KW for a 700 mm antennae size .
Duty cycle of European MMIC chips is not known - i would say difference of 30% is what best they could achieve ,
reliability of Russian module varies between 21-as peak to 18-as average for fighter size of SU-35, which have descent cooling (gives around 25% dip in peak performance)
Rafale being smaller no doubt will perform less since cooling issue will crop up.
Now that gives us variability of RBE2 aesa between 15 to 20 KW which is quite significant- i wonder what INDIAN force requirement is.

Even giving 18KW for half surface-area of antennae (which i assume 700mm ) will be better than Gripen/F16 but will it match what F18 is providing . I have many reservations.

Finally , their technology is only taking off recently - We still dont know what they have done with their SIDE-LOBE losses of Radar beam. That was one issue which came up in Early design of AMSAR project with loss of more than 20 -25 db.

Point is All European fighters are a superbly designed machines but for obtaining maximum performance of them - they Require American help and sustained funds which some nations are not willing.

Rafale no doubt is an epitome of Delta wing design, but dosent provide enough bang for bucks French are asking.
And all newer technology which they are implementing in phased manner like
new MAWS ( read link below, i was impressed by it)
Ares Homepage

New AESA ,
New processors for SPECTRA require lot of funds ,
I can bet India is not ready to provide that .
If they it themselves and French gov help ,it will reflect in Pricing of aircraft itself which is already overpriced.

 

[DMLA]

Thnx -get it done as soon as possible
I am also trying to get my friends from IAF ( Batchmates) to help me out with this.

Sorry for being this late

A friend of mine sent me this scan about the topic you talked of. I am sending the relevant portion....



There was another news article of RFI being sent for AESA T/R components for integration in india for LCA. I have no information about the status. It would seem that most frontline fighters (mki, lca, mmrca) will have AESA by 2020-2025.

 

[KEETARP]

Thnx Mate
Actually , this article also got published in Asian Age Mumbai edition.
Nevertheless , what is your take .
I mean has this something to do with talk of getting ELTA-2052 which is in final stages on American jets to get full TOT compliant deal.
My guess is if ZHUK-MSF AE as promised by NIIR in 2012 is ready , its performance will be twice than earlier AESA , so this radar theory dosen't apply on MIG.( Janes is reliable but still Mig theory dosent hold promise to me)
My Bet is, it has something to do with Eurofighter and Gripen case.

Even last line 300 MRCA - total waste. Nos always fluctuated bcoz of LCA earlier , but with IOC in 2011 .
MRCA will remain at 126.

 

[sancho]

For me ,French in-fact whole Europe Is behind America in Maturing their Radar technology.
They missed their bus right from the start-with respect to manufacturing MMICs, both commercially and militarily.Even today Europe is only beginning to catch up to where the US was in the late 1990s manufacturing them . Same goes with Russians
Still many of specs has been kept classified which creates more doubt regarding performance of most of their radars.

I agree, although the Captor radar of EF is said to provide good performance, the Europeans are lagging behind in this field and I said it before that radar (at least radar range) might be one of the weak points of Rafale. But I also don't believe that radar will be a big requirement in MMRCA, except that it must be an AESA radar. With Bars AESA in MKI and the new AESA at Pak Fa IAF already is well positioned in this regard and these will remain our main fighters, MMRCA will be used alongside them.
Also imo radar is not the most important sensor anymore, the combination of a low RCS and good passive detection capabilities with avionics is getting more and more important, especially with stealth fighters coming in numbers. In this field, I see the Europeans and most of all the Israelis in front.
If you take a closer look at Rafales Spectra EWS capabilites and the new DDMNG you will see, that these are pretty much the same techs that the US call 5. gen avionics in their new F35, but France uses the first Spectra versions nearly a decade now.

Their design which i assume would be based on current RBE PESA - and seeing nose dimension of fighter itself it wont support modules more than any other one esp F18. Thales product brochure only says near 1000 but dosen't specify may be 900 we dont know.

I generally don't think that the RBE 2 AESA is bad, or see a reason not to believe that it has 1000 T/R modules. The Rafale is a fighter in the size of a single engine fighter, which is obvious, because it's based on the M2K. That's why the nose is also not comparable to the nose of F18SH, or EF of course, but one point could give a hint of how capable it could be (in a bigger version), the number of targets that can be tracked and engaged at the same time.
RBE 2 AESA can track 40 targets and engage 8 of them, Bars PESA in MKI can track 15 targets and engage 4 (the AESA upgrade should double the performance), Zhuk AESA radar can track 30 targets and engage 6 and the ELTA 2052 can even track 64 targets at the same time.

Point is All European fighters are a superbly designed machines but for obtaining maximum performance of them - they Require American help and sustained funds which some nations are not willing.

As I said above that is only true in regards to radar, but neither in avionics, design, or weapon development they really need US help. The simple difference is, European countries don't spend that much money for such developments as the US does.

Rafale no doubt is an epitome of Delta wing design, but dosent provide enough bang for bucks French are asking.
And all newer technology which they are implementing in phased manner like
New AESA ,
New processors for SPECTRA require lot of funds ,
I can bet India is not ready to provide that .
If they it themselves and French gov help ,it will reflect in Pricing of aircraft itself which is already overpriced.

That is not correct, these are funded by France itself, because these are normal upgrades of exsisting techs and fall into the new F3 standard. What is not funded so far are integration of CFTs and HMS if I'm not wrong, as well es the funding of a higher thrust engine and exactly here India would be the perfect partner!
We already will fund the Kaveri-Snecma development and we have a HMS JV with Thales, so this could be integrated too. I highly would recomend CFTs, but that of course will depend on the IAF and MoD of course.

I disagree, the Rafale offers clearly the most bang for bucks, simply by the fact that we can integrate Kaveri-Snecma into it, which no other fighter can offer. Just compare it with the other contenders and tell me, which other fighter offers full ToT, source codes, no restrictions, integration of indigenous engine, is ready and mature by the time we will get the first squad in 2014, includes a proven carrier version and is completelly sanction prove?
Because this all is what the Rafale offers for us and I don't see any other contender that can offer this much advantages.
That's why I always say, if IAF/MoD want's the best package of advantages, they will take the Rafale!

 

[nightrider_saulat]

by which year first squadron of MRCA will be inducted and secondly by which year their serial production will get started.

 

[DMLA]

Thnx Mate
Actually , this article also got published in Asian Age Mumbai edition.
Nevertheless , what is your take .
I mean has this something to do with talk of getting ELTA-2052 which is in final stages on American jets to get full TOT compliant deal.
My guess is if ZHUK-MSF AE as promised by NIIR in 2012 is ready , its performance will be twice than earlier AESA , so this radar theory dosen't apply on MIG.( Janes is reliable but still Mig theory dosent hold promise to me)
My Bet is, it has something to do with Eurofighter and Gripen case.

Even last line 300 MRCA - total waste. Nos always fluctuated bcoz of LCA earlier , but with IOC in 2011 .
MRCA will remain at 126.

I feel this "parallel" development is essentially a means to keep the MMRCA program viable. Though RFP requirements stated AESA, most companies are still developing the same and thus IAF wants to mitigate the risks by hedging against any vendor failing to come up with the said system in time. This would make it possible for IAF to select the bird with the best "performance" even if it has sub-optimal radar performance. I also feel that LCA will have no bearing on the numbers of MMRCA procured (and vice versa) as they are in different categories. Moreover, with the current expansion of PAF & PLAAF and the stated need of 42+ squadrons for IAF, I foresee higher numbers of MMRCA (atleast 189). The issue with LCA IMO is the number of hardpoints/ payload limitations which seriously limit its role in a full scale war. MMRCA candidates provide exceptional payload which is considered important by IAF.

Looking at the IAF fleet, with jaguar, mirage and mig-29 upgrades; these birds should keep flying for another 15 years. DRDO/ IAF hopes to replace mirage/ jaguars with AMCA while the mig-29's will eventually be replaced with FGFA (post 2025). Thus the mki's, MMRCA, LCA will be independent programs. This would suggest 150-200 AMCA (at the max). Moreover, with the advent of UCAV's, the reliance on fighters should drop further. Thus with ~300 mki's, ~200 LCA's & ~200 MMRCA's, we get 35~36 squadrons. The MMRCA IMO will act as the first replacements of jaguars as well (since IAF RFP clearly indicated 2 specific squadrons for twin seat aircrafts for strike roles apart from additional twin seat trainers).

Let us see what happens as these are still years away and we will have a better picture only by 2020.

 

[KEETARP]

I feel this "parallel" development is essentially a means to keep the MMRCA program viable. Though RFP requirements stated AESA, most companies are still developing the same and thus IAF wants to mitigate the risks by hedging against any vendor failing to come up with the said system in time. This would make it possible for IAF to select the bird with the best "performance" even if it has sub-optimal radar performance. I also feel that LCA will have no bearing on the numbers of MMRCA procured (and vice versa) as they are in different categories. Moreover, with the current expansion of PAF & PLAAF and the stated need of 42+ squadrons for IAF, I foresee higher numbers of MMRCA (atleast 189). The issue with LCA IMO is the number of hardpoints/ payload limitations which seriously limit its role in a full scale war. MMRCA candidates provide exceptional payload which is considered important by IAF.

Looking at the IAF fleet, with jaguar, mirage and mig-29 upgrades; these birds should keep flying for another 15 years. DRDO/ IAF hopes to replace mirage/ jaguars with AMCA while the mig-29's will eventually be replaced with FGFA (post 2025). Thus the mki's, MMRCA, LCA will be independent programs. This would suggest 150-200 AMCA (at the max). Moreover, with the advent of UCAV's, the reliance on fighters should drop further. Thus with ~300 mki's, ~200 LCA's & ~200 MMRCA's, we get 35~36 squadrons. The MMRCA IMO will act as the first replacements of jaguars as well (since IAF RFP clearly indicated 2 specific squadrons for twin seat aircrafts for strike roles apart from additional twin seat trainers).

Let us see what happens as these are still years away and we will have a better picture only by 2020.

Strike capability wise Eurofighter and Mig35 will not give even 50% what F18,F16,Rafale can at this time.

And MRCA has always been touted as replacing vintage Migs, now Mig was a pure interceptor aircraft in IAF innings. LCA is on same line even better bcoz of descent A2G capability.
Secondly if Air-superiority is there our SU30 can give better strike capability with standoff distance , bcoz of better payload+Fuel+radius.
I mean A2G weapons of Su30 are similar to Su34 and if Brahmos as promised is ready by 2014 , there cant be any deadly combo of strike package.
A2G weapon wise f18 can only better Su30.

Even if IAF wants pure air-superiority fighters like Mig35 or Eurofighter , whatever advantage above Su30 they have now few years down the line MLU of Su30 will neutral it.

And we are talking about 40 years of life of Aircraft, in long term i dont see a role of Mrca in large nos .

SEAD role -FGFA , UAV's

Air-superiority - FGFA + SU30 + Mig29smt(Till they retire)

Strike aircraft - Su30 with Brahmos+ FGFA + MMRCA (Till AMCA takes that role) + Mirage2000-5

CAS,Point defence,Interception - Mig29smt , LCA

higher nos of MMRCA is waste , until AMCA delivery is slated beyond 2045 bcoz final assembly of MMRCA wont end before 2025 and add fighter's life.

Now 300 MKI + 250 FGFA+ 200 LCA alone gives us 750 in total more than 35 SQ worth(now these are nearly 100 confirmed and i have not counted Jags+mirage+Mig29) ,
Now i am giving 10 Years for Russia to build FGFA not 2015 , and for the time being that is time period from 2014 when first MMRCA arrives to 2022 till FGFA in nos start arrive you need only 100 aircraft to complement Mirage+Jags + Mig29 fleet to prevent falling Sq strength.

If you add AMCA nos climb to 1000 nearing 50 SQ worth, assuming it arrives in 15 years from now

For 2015-2025 time frame spending 20 billions on 200 MRCA is just way too much.
10 billion is good enough

By that time something like Predator would be functional in IAF , i mean atleast 2-3 sq of armed drone would form strike core also.

I see no place for 200-300 MRCA.

 

[DMLA]

To be frank with you, I don't see AMCA coming in any numbers before 2030. IAF never said that MMRCA was a replacement for mig-21's. Media has always cited MMRCA as a requirement which stems from LCA delays and mig retirements. This may have been the case initially but has changed dramatically. With regard to hardpoints/payload, all the MMRCA contenders (barring mig-35) approach or surpass that of su-30. Moreover, one look at RFP will tell you that IAF is also looking at some of these birds for strike role (the number of twin seaters required is disproportionate to the number of single seaters).

As I said, MMRCA is a hedge against HAL/DRDO not getting AMCA out in time. The fact is that any modern fighter has a long development phase. With LCA still few years away (mk-II), I don't see AMCA coming in any time soon. This makes MMRCA to be the only other option. We are looking at the chinese developments specifically near our borders which makes it necessary for us to have good strike platforms. IMHO, MMRCA should be a great strike aircraft with good A2A abilities.

Anyhow, as I said before, we will not know where things are going for a few years. Let us wait and see which aircraft is chosen, when PAKFA comes online (I expect this to happen only after 2020 and FGFA another 2-3 years) and when AMCA comes online. We will need a replacement for jaguars/ mirages from 2025+ and by then all the contracted MMRCA's would have been produced (10 year production run from 2015 to 2025). This makes me think MMRCA will be procured if (and mostly it will) AMCA is not ready by then.

 

[KEETARP]

With regard to hardpoints/payload, all the MMRCA contenders (barring mig-35) approach or surpass that of su-30. Moreover, one look at RFP will tell you that IAF is also looking at some of these birds for strike role (the number of twin seaters required is disproportionate to the number of single seaters)

Some clarifications
Gripen , F16 - I doubt that they have load like Su30 esp Fuel on Board.
And when you take high wing loading into account - esp of F16 , Rafale its T/W ratio drops considerably.
And one of the Req to operate at LEH, i mean could be doubtful.
Secondly This nos div between single seater and Double seater , i never came across such news / article . any link
A

 

[DMLA]

Some clarifications
Gripen , F16 - I doubt that they have load like Su30 esp Fuel on Board.
And when you take high wing loading into account - esp of F16 , Rafale its T/W ratio drops considerably.
And one of the Req to operate at LEH, i mean could be doubtful.
Secondly This nos div between single seater and Double seater , i never came across such news / article . any link
A

wrt nos of single/twin configs, here is a link to a 2009 article. I am afraid I do not have the link to the original article which had cited the RFP and was from a vendor. It may have been removed due to confidentiality clauses, etc....

link: Race is on for India MMRCA | AVIATION WEEK

Flight trials for India’s biggest defense procurement program, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), are underway. India will acquire 126 aircraft—86 single-seat and 40 twin-seat configurations.

compare this with the mig-29 program (for example) which had 70 single seaters and 10 twin seaters (B & UB) according to an article in AFM from 2009.

wrt requirements and comparison to su-30, we should remember that we are trying to get around the "limitations" of the huge flanker by having a smaller platform which is better suited for strike ops. Just for comparison, I would ask you to look at the number of hardpoints that MMRCA contenders have and you would see that most have the same or more hardpoints than mki. Also, most birds have high payload ratings which are close to or higher than mki.

We should also remember that stand off capability was a big issue with IAF for MMRCA and this resulted in american's touting JSOW's and russia touting the air launched variant of klub, newer versions of kh-31P's and kh-59M's. IAF is increasingly looking at long range precision strike capabilities and brahmos (as you pointed out) is a step in that direction. LCA from its very inception was meant to be a light weight interceptor with A2G capabilities and thus can never substitute for the MMRCA.

Anyhow, I would rest this discussion at this stage. I do not see any way of finding what will happen in future. A lot would also depend on which bird wins MMRCA as it would define the possible roles for the bird (and not just the roles IAF has envisioned).

 

[letsbefriends]

by which year first squadron of MRCA will be inducted and secondly by which year their serial production will get started.

cant tell that buddy,depends upon which aircraft wins the contract,if f-16 or 18 wins we may get the first squadron by the end of 2011 or mid 2012 and if eurofighter or mig wins we will get them in around 2013 mid or end,cant say abt rafale or gripen.itz just a wait n watch game right now

 

[sancho]

by which year first squadron of MRCA will be inducted and secondly by which year their serial production will get started.

The aim is 2014 and the first squad (18 fighters) will be delivered from winning country, the licence production should start 1 year later, when the production Su 30 MKI could end.