Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[nik22]

Well that HAL is not really happy with Dassaults public criticism shouldn't be surprising, especially after such a long time that they have relations with French aviation industry, but they don't reply in a similar manner (which is good), while the important figures are responding pretty strongly! Former DM Antony and former Air Chief Browne made clear, that Dassault has to stick to the demands shown in the RFP and if the new DM now follows that route and makes a strong statement, that's perfect because we simply are in the better position to negotiate. I even would take the next step now and make an open request to the EF consortium, to know how they would comply to the liability issue, or if they have similar problems with HAL. If they don't it's either Dassaults move to comply, or ours to put the negotiations with Dassault on hold and move to the L2, since that is the procedure of the competition. We purposely went with 2 options that suits IAFs requirements and just selected Rafale for prefered negotiations, if these don't work out, the 2nd option must be approached, as simple as that.

Agree with you on Rafale after long time!
That is the path to follow. Looks like Rafale was planning to take India on ride when they responded to RFP.

 

[Pichkari]

Well that HAL is not really happy with Dassaults public criticism shouldn't be surprising, especially after such a long time that they have relations with French aviation industry, but they don't reply in a similar manner (which is good), while the important figures are responding pretty strongly! Former DM Antony and former Air Chief Browne made clear, that Dassault has to stick to the demands shown in the RFP and if the new DM now follows that route and makes a strong statement, that's perfect because we simply are in the better position to negotiate. I even would take the next step now and make an open request to the EF consortium, to know how they would comply to the liability issue, or if they have similar problems with HAL. If they don't it's either Dassaults move to comply, or ours to put the negotiations with Dassault on hold and move to the L2, since that is the procedure of the competition. We purposely went with 2 options that suits IAFs requirements and just selected Rafale for prefered negotiations, if these don't work out, the 2nd option must be approached, as simple as that.

IMO the ministry will go through with the tender and compromises by either of them will be made.
We should have started negotiations simultaneously with two vendors right from day1 and then the final bids should have been opened.
The more delay by MOD lesser the chances of EFT getting back in and Dassault knows this.
If the ministry at this stage decides to put the talks on hold and start afresh with eft ,India will be screwed,royally.
In this cutthroat competition an action like this implicitly means showing dassalut the door.
In such a scenario all dassault has to do is walk away and voila, a new tango with a single vendor starts which will last for atleast three years,realistically speaking.
By the time then EFT arrives i would be talking to little baby sanchos on pdf

 

[sancho]

We should have started negotiations simultaneously with two vendors right from day1 and then the final bids should have been opened.

That's not possible, because the main part of what we see since 2012, is Dassault and Co. searching for suitable Indian partners to divert production, which is their work to comply to the ToT and offset requirements. It's a misconception of the media that we did negotiations with Dassault or that we could had fixed the deal without Dassault finishing their work, but would had taken even more time if 2 vendors would have to do it, especially since there are not too many suitable Indian companies anyway.
However, the L2 is the backup plan that we have, if the L1 can't do it and even if I still think the Rafale is currently the better fighter, all that counts is, what's the best for India and if Dassault can't comply to our demands, maybe a less capable EF with a bigger industrial consortium is the better alternative?

If the ministry at this stage decides to put the talks on hold and start afresh with eft ,India will be screwed,royally.

They don't have to, all they need to know at this point is, how the EF consortium would deal with the liability issue and then we can decide to give Dassault another chance, or if it's time to talk with the desperate Germans and Brits.

By the time then EFT arrives i would be talking to little baby sanchos on pdf

Well I still think that the EF is actually the fastest solution for us, which could be available in higher numbers at the same time Rafale would be. But lets see what will come first, M-MRCA or kids, the latter at least can be influenced by me.

 

[DrSomnath999]

From Asian Military Review Dec-14-Jan-15

merry christmas everyone

may santa gift us Rafale deal by dassault agreeing to our liabilty clause demand

CHEERS

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho

Why are you so confident that Eurofighter Consortium will agree to
all our demands

I believe they will NOT
We will face exactly the same problems as with Dassault - HAL : Responsibility and work share etc

And in matters of TOT and offsets we will get even less

That is because out of the four countries ONLY UK is keen to sell Typhoon to India
That is because of the traditional UK France rivalry

Germany's economy is very strong ; it does not care about Typhoon's future

Our officials will go crazy negotiating and dealing with four countries

It is going to be Rafale or NOTHING back to SU 30 or MAYBE even SU 35 and SU 34

 

[Dillinger]

@sancho

Why are you so confident that Eurofighter Consortium will agree to
all our demands

I believe they will NOT
We will face exactly the same problems as with Dassault - HAL : Responsibility and work share etc

And in matters of TOT and offsets we will get even less

That is because out of the four countries ONLY UK is keen to sell Typhoon to India
That is because of the traditional UK France rivalry

Germany's economy is very strong ; it does not care about Typhoon's future

Our officials will go crazy negotiating and dealing with four countries

It is going to be Rafale or NOTHING back to SU 30 or MAYBE even SU 35 and SU 34

Correct about the complexities of dealing with multiple nations involved in the consortium.

The ToT involved in the Rafale deal is as it is M-ToT meant to ensure strategic and operational autonomy, at best the know how and not the know why. With the EF consortium to renegotiate even an equivalent level of ToT will in itself take a long time.

 

[sancho]

Why are you so confident that Eurofighter Consortium will agree to
all our demands

I didn't said they will, I said we should ask them how they would comply to that demand, because we have the L2 as an option and that makes us to be in the better position to negotiate. The vendors have only the option to either comply or not, but are dependent on our final decisions, while we can choose between 2 options and take the more suitable one.
And why I am more confident about the EF consortium, once because they include bigger companies than the Rafale partners, with available and strong ties to the Indian industry. But most importantly, because BAE already knows what we want and how HAL works through the Hawk licence production. We even saw the exact problems in the Hawk deal, that we are trying to avoid in the M-MRCA, by BAE fully suporting the off the shelf delivered Hawks, while messing up the licence production at HAL, by delivering wrong toolings with the result that MoD punished them with penalities. So BAE learned their lessons, today fully supports HAL and the Hawk production is even ahead of the planned schedule, which shows that things can work fine, if the foreign vendor wants it!
It's natural that any foreign vendor will try to get the most out for their interests and I don't even blame Dassault for trying that, but we have to look at our interests and that's why we go the competition way, to be in the better position to demand, negotiate and get at least close to what we want.

And in matters of TOT and offsets we will get even less

That is because out of the four countries ONLY UK is keen to sell Typhoon to India
That is because of the traditional UK France rivalry

Germany's economy is very strong ; it does not care about Typhoon's future

That's plain wrong, since they already stated similar ToT proposals, besides the fact that we would be a real partner in the project, which gives us far more access to techs and chances to actually be involved in the EF upgrades. The latter in fact is the main problem with Dassault now, where the F3R upgrade shows us where we stand, "outside" of the Rafale upgrade path like any export customers. We can fund and integrate certain upgrade options, but there is obviously no interest in jointly developing upgrades for French and Indian forces / requirements. The chances to include Indian techs and include Indian industry into the upgrade of EF are far higher than with Rafale, which is why the industrial offer of the EF consortium could had been even better than Dassaults, which was even evident by the proposals to include us in AESA radar and TVC developments.

And no, it's not only the UK that is keen to sell EF's, it's all partners because they had to cancel their T3B orders which causes madatory penalties. German news recently stated, that the government must pay around 500 million Euros to the industry and cash strapped partners like Spain or Italy (which were hit hard by the finacial crisis years), obviously would like to avoid these penalties too. The minimum M-MRCA order pretty much covers the complete T3B order of the 4 partner nations and would have solved this problems, but the penalties are not the only issue, since the lack of orders will lead to an end of the EF production by 2018, that leads to 1000s of people getting unemployed. So these factors alone makes the EF partner nations and industry, far more desperate to comply to our demands and sell us the EF, than Dassault is, because Rafale production is secured beyond 2020 and Dassault is not dependent on Rafale sales to increase profits.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Parliament panel slams MoD's 'lackadaisical approach'


finally the truth.. Rs 2645 crs allocated for IAF new purchases vs requisite of 12k Cr implying no scope of Rafale purchase or Jaguar upgrades or intensive new acquisitions... So now we know rest all stories is just paint work of reporter fiction.. We cant sign the deal this FY as such..

 

[sancho]

From the MP forum (credits to Olybrius)

Sagem wants to qualify AASM on Mirage 2000.

The challenge is to sustain a strategic industry pending Rafale export [...]
"It's interesting for us, even though there will be no additional order in the military planning law. [...] This will maintain production at Sagem and offers prospects for export, " said General Mercier .[...]

For Sagem, it is urgent: without new orders, the production line of the factory in Montlucon (Allier) will end in May 2016, and it will be very expensive to restart later. If negotiations with Qatar and India for the sale of Rafale succeed early next year, the problem will only partially resolved: the first aircraft will not be delivered before three years, not until 2018, at best. We must find other outlets. [...] Peru is interested and Egypt if, ultimately, Cairo could not buy the Rafale [...]

L'avenir de l'un des armements les plus sensibles du Rafale en suspens, Industrie & Services

Poor Sagem, desperate to sell the AASM, but it shows the problem not only of the weapon but also for potential customers that must consider that the weapon might not be available anymore when the first fighter arrives.
Also interesting the note on Egypt, wonder if they are talking about finacial or political issues to buy Rafale?

 

[Abingdonboy]

NEW DELHI: France France will be sending an empowered representative in early January 2015 to thrash out issues concerning the estimated $11 billion deal for 126 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation for the air force, India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said here on Dec. 30, 2014.

Arming India

 

[sathya]

NEW DELHI: France France will be sending an empowered representative in early January 2015 to thrash out issues concerning the estimated $11 billion deal for 126 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation for the air force, India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said here on Dec. 30, 2014.

Arming India

WoW, too good to believe..

then why the hell did we upgrade mirages for such a high cost..

may New Year bring more good news..

 

[Abingdonboy]

WoW, too good to believe..

then why the hell did we upgrade mirages for such a high cost..

may New Year bring more good news..

I find $11 BN hard to believe as the most credible reported figure is $15-16 BN

 

[sathya]

I find $11 BN hard to believe as the most credible reported figure is $15-16 BN

maybe it's the initial contract value in 2003-5

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho

Rafale in storm clouds, Parrikar says IAF can make do with Sukhoi-30s | Business Standard News

'Sukhoi option still there if Rafale talks collapse' - Hindustan Times

I told you there is NO Eurofighter option

 

[SQ8]

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