Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[greatone]

explain it plz..

Please see the edit.

 

[Dazzler]

Transfer of manufacturing technology. It means we could manufacture everything in house (by the end). It doesn't mean that HAL or GTRE would be in a position to develop world class engines of their own. Building it from raw material stage, that's all.

i suggest google, there is no such thing as "everything" in a ToT arrangement.

 

[janon]

i suggest google, there is no such thing as "everything" in a ToT arrangement.

Are you sure google would be the best tool to learn such a thing?

BTW we have built mig-21s and jaguars completely in house, although they were developed in SU and Europe.

I don't know if we can do the same with Rafale, but at least that's the idea.

 

[sancho]

MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

Not a credible report, because reducing the number of units would not reduce the costs, since unit cost would be higher, the licence production with 46 less fighters would be less worth it as well, especially since the French would reduce industrial benefits of course. But I guess you see why I said that this is a crucial phase, it can swing in different directions now, simply by the fact that we have a new government. So as I said even before the elections, it all depends on the priorities of the new government.

Priority on indingenous development => cancelling MMRCA and diverting funds to LCA and FGFA (maybe AMCA) developments
Priority on getting the best fighter for IAF => signing Rafale deal
Priotity on getting the best cost / benefit ratio according to the original RFP => signing Rafale deal
Priotity on getting the best cost / benefit ratio with the delivery delays => sign EF deal
Priority of fast deliveries to replace Migs => EF T3A's as a stop gap and T3B's in the licence production
Priority for more industrial benefits and manufacturing => joint developments with EF consortium and participation in T3B upgrade

Talked with an executive yesterday nite. Pure BS. And as he mentioned, it would be stupid as there is a ramping up of indian input in every indian built Rafales so last ones will be near 100% indian made...

Which only means that the last Rafales could be completelly build in India, not that it actually would have much Indian input in form of Indian technology.

last part is wishful thinking at best.

stay on topic, stop ranting or get reported !

I guess that works for you as well, doesn't it?

 

[sancho]

 

[$@rJen]

Nice paint job

 

[sancho]

Nice paint job

Yes from the Tiger Meet exercise and the Germans clearly had the upper hand over the French with the paintjob this year and lets hope they will beat France in the World Cup today too!

Greets to @halloweene

 

[sancho]

A significant visit

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius has concluded a substantial India visit which can help lift some of the barriers that may be blocking the emergence of a full-blown strategic partnership between the two countries. Free from verbiage, Mr. Fabius’ visit had a hard-nosed businesslike feel to it. Cash-strapped France seemed focussed on trading some of the blue-chip kernels of its hi-tech industry. India, on its part, looking to bolster its military preparedness, energy security and international profile, was prepared to calibrate a hard bargain. The recognition by New Delhi and Paris that a win-win outcome was indeed possible seemed to have yielded significant progress during the visit towards clinching the multibillion dollar Rafale aircraft deal, and the stalled contract for two French nuclear reactors. With a capacity to generate 1,650 megawatts of power each, a breakthrough in the deal for the two reactors could clear the path for the establishment of four additional reactors of similar capacity at the Jaitapur site in Maharashtra. An installed capacity of nearly 10,000 megawatts would not only boost French nuclear commerce, but also make a vital contribution to satisfying India’s energy hunger.

In dealing with the French, the Indian side has made it clear that it is not interested in a pure buyer-seller relationship with France in the hi-tech domain. As a result, complex negotiations are under way — both on the Rafale and the European Pressurised Reactors (EPR) — that would not only give India the final product, but also implant frontier technology within the country through transfers of state-of-the-art know-how. The induction of the 126 Rafale fighter jets would also help cement the air-dominance doctrine of the Indian Air Force (IAF), which has already benefited from the inductions of the Russian Su-30 MKI multi-role planes and other advanced platforms. Mr. Fabius’ arrival in New Delhi has provided an opportunity to quickly finalise the Indo-French nuclear deal, which is possible if the two parties arrive at a formula that would lower the costs of atomic power generation at Jaitapur. During talks, India has demanded greater “localisation,” which would expand involvement of domestic industry in the project, as well as provide greater scientific and technical exposure to Indian personnel to Light Water Reactor (LWR) technology that the French have mastered. At a political level, the Minister’s visit has provided New Delhi an opportunity to advance its ties with continental Europe, which revolves around a Franco-German core. This is significant, as Europe, despite undergoing a rapid political and economic transition, would continue to remain a major player in a multipolar world, which India needs to engage vigorously.

A significant visit - The Hindu

 

[Dazzler]

Not a credible report, because reducing the number of units would not reduce the costs, since unit cost would be higher, the licence production with 46 less fighters would be less worth it as well, especially since the French would reduce industrial benefits of course. But I guess you see why I said that this is a crucial phase, it can swing in different directions now, simply by the fact that we have a new government. So as I said even before the elections, it all depends on the priorities of the new government.

Priority on indingenous development => cancelling MMRCA and diverting funds to LCA and FGFA (maybe AMCA) developments
Priority on getting the best fighter for IAF => signing Rafale deal
Priotity on getting the best cost / benefit ratio according to the original RFP => signing Rafale deal
Priotity on getting the best cost / benefit ratio with the delivery delays => sign EF deal
Priority of fast deliveries to replace Migs => EF T3A's as a stop gap and T3B's in the licence production
Priority for more industrial benefits and manufacturing => joint developments with EF consortium and participation in T3B upgrade




Which only means that the last Rafales could be completelly build in India, not that it actually would have much Indian input in form of Indian technology.





I guess that works for you as well, doesn't it?

not more than your fantasy parades

 

[GORKHALI]

not more than your fantasy parades

But why your getting gasm for this.....

 

[atlssa]

But I guess you see why I said that this is a crucial phase

Definitely I Do!

 

[MilSpec]

IAF sqdrns are dwindling = Fact

true, but Platforms like Mig21 and Mig27 are being retired and being replaced with Su 30 MKI's, which would you rather face.

No major fighter induction since MKI = Fact

Are you sure about that, last I heard 55 Mig29K's "Fighters"were added to IN (All BVR, All multi-role), additionally 17-19 MKI being added every year since the last decade, ie more than the total JF17+F16 strength of pakistan

Rafale deal is still in limbo, atleast by year end = Fact

True, but Mig29UPG is on track, so is Super Sukhoi, Mirage 2K upg, mig27 DARE, Jaguar DARIN III. When we acknowledge the fact that MLU upgrde by turkey add's significant strength to PAF F16's, may be you might attribute some advantages of the silly upgrades we do too.

PAF has 50 jf-17, 76 F-16 (18 blk 52+mlu), some are yet to go through mlu though but process continues, around 150 4th gen fighters and counting, more jordanian mlus are likely to join as PAF is analysing more pieces there.

Analysis is good, We are trying with outmost humility to get the best out of Rafale. The attempt is the same.

PAF crashes are still much less compared to IAF crashes, just check the crash thread for facts, IAF until recently crashing even MKIs and Mirage 2000s. PAF mirage is too old to operate apart of 80 odd Rose upgraded ones which have plenty of life left, kodus to sealed Libyan engines and spares.

Well our airforce is significantly larger in size, our sorties are much higher than that of PAF, and our trainers have had issues for a long time, and this is one area where we do need to work on.

Lastly, IAF does not have 200 MKIs in service, and please stop making a fuss on MKI, it is a BIG machine with everything big about but yet to be proven in the battlefield. Indians are proud on BARS radar, without knowing that a PESA, not matter how good it is, is not an AESA. BARS is a huge unit, the amount of radiation it throws when operating on full, even on average power, it is detectable from a long range.

Does PAF has an AESA radar? What are you proud of then? The fact of the matter is N011 modes are still classified, having worked on the aircraft, I have no clue about it's specs, so till then you can rely on open source information and hopefully your air force does too....

Remember, radar, when working, radiates. Through internet and Russian sites, members and some retired personnel on f-16.net etc, give figures that it can detect fighter size (5sqm) at around 130-140km at best, so where is the advantage? There is none.

Sure.... I hope PAF believes the same internet russian site....There is no advantage, for MKI will be toast against every fighter jets PAF can field, right...

 

[Dazzler]

i

true, but Platforms like Mig21 and Mig27 are being retired and being replaced with Su 30 MKI's, which would you rather face.


Are you sure about that, last I heard 55 Mig29K's "Fighters"were added to IN (All BVR, All multi-role), additionally 17-19 MKI being added every year since the last decade, ie more than the total JF17+F16 strength of pakistan

True, but Mig29UPG is on track, so is Super Sukhoi, Mirage 2K upg, mig27 DARE, Jaguar DARIN III. When we acknowledge the fact that MLU upgrde by turkey add's significant strength to PAF F16's, may be you might attribute some advantages of the silly upgrades we do too.


Analysis is good, We are trying with outmost humility to get the best out of Rafale. The attempt is the same.


Well our airforce is significantly larger in size, our sorties are much higher than that of PAF, and our trainers have had issues for a long time, and this is one area where we do need to work on.


Does PAF has an AESA radar? What are you proud of then? The fact of the matter is N011 modes are still classified, having worked on the aircraft, I have no clue about it's specs, so till then you can rely on open source information and hopefully your air force does too....



Sure.... I hope PAF believes the same internet russian site....There is no advantage, for MKI will be toast against every fighter jets PAF can field, right...

is it true the order is reduced?

But why your getting gasm for this.....

still waiting for your answers in arjun II thread

 

[manojb]

IMG_0393.JPG - Google Drive

pakistani officers at Eurosatory

in that picture pak brigadier bardar hayt a defence attache with pak embasy in china, is carrying letter dated May 2014 from GHQ pak.. letter says "letter of interest - Tank t-99/Vt-3" , Pak is planning to buy 300 tanks from china !! . @RAW
@Storm Force
sirji photo ko pose dete waqt jara dhyan se, aaj kal cell phone camera has 12MP resolution

 

[cloud_9]

Transfer of manufacturing technology. It means we could manufacture everything in house (by the end). It doesn't mean that HAL or GTRE would be in a position to develop world class engines of their own. Building it from raw material stage, that's all.

AFAIK Core technologies are never transferred in TOT.

We can make engines with TOT but we won't be able to make another one with different specs for that you will have to reverse engineer the engine.

TOT is like a casting mould...You can make x number of copies with that mould but you don't really know how to modify or tweak that mould to meet your requirements.