Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Yzd Khalifa]

the reality is we don't dig money out of the ground, thus have to contemplate all options before closing the deal, KSA on the other hand has oil to fund all it's gizmos.

Not really. This isn't what is going on. Having seen you military purchases over the years, I see no problem with money.

 

[DacterSaab]

It is because the RSNF has an independent Air Arms on its own

Yes but is the air-arm large enough to support an entirely different kind of aircraft to do something that both F-15SA and EFT will be doing equally well?
Hate to say doesn't make sense unless their going for a light CATOBAR carrier, or maybe they'll do it to increase Interoperatablity with UAE, Qatar and others.

In the next few years, we will pull off the Tornados from the front lines. That's why the DR is being considered.

So you mean EFTs won't replace Tornados?

Or maybe the Saudis will be waiting for a worth-procuring 5th Gen jet in the near future.

Now, that won't be a surprise at all most probably JSF will be procured.

 

[DacterSaab]

Why should we waste time when we already know what suits us the best?
Did it take from the UK 7 years of exhaustive evaluative examinations to procure the F-35? No, same goes with China whenever its mulls to buy a Russian-made warplane.

Exactly If you know what you want it's easier.
Look at Su-30 purchase although the MKIs needed modifications so they arrived later.

But with MMRCA India didn't know the exact aircraft they needed.
Also it was an opportunity for the IAF to make a detailed evaluation (the competitors were tested in Banglore for performance in high humidity, in Jodhpur for performance in high temperatures and in Leh for performance in high altitude and sub-zero temperatures) of all western aircraft available in the market.

Since we were gonna order in high numbers we went for comprehensive TOT and offset requirement.

The first selection was made on technical evaluation of all fighters based on 600+ parameters.
The top 2 fighters were asked to submit bids including cost of fly-away fighters+cost of locally manufacturing fighters with incremental indigenisation+cost of training personal and equipment+cost of TOT+details of offset fullfillment.
Then the fighter that bid lower (L1) won the competition.

Is it similar to Russia's political reason to stop its arms sales to India?
I hope it won't!
Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India - Hindustan Times
Political reasons happen in many case but not in everything, every time, and every single project.

Not happening for atleast half a century.

and there are specific needs for the task they are going to carry on the other particular on the Gulf.

Could you please highlight?

UAE should buy Gripen-NG

It depends on their requirements.

Gripen is dam good, it has emerged as top of contender in Swiss evaluations.

Please take a look general Gripen is good low cost option.

 

[sancho]

Gripen is dam good, it has emerged as top of contender in Swiss evaluations.

Not really, it actually came out last and below the operational requirements the Swiss air force had, but since the Swiss, just like Brazil neither can afford better fighters, nor have the threat perception that would require the best available fighters, they took the most cost-effective solution.

For most of the Gulf countries that can afford better fighters, the Gripen is not even worth evaluating, which is why neither KSA, UAE, Qatar, or even Oman thought about it. And for countries with credible threats like S. Korea, Japan, or India, it's simply not capable enough.

But actually, it is for both reasons. The Navy wants to be independent on one hand, and there are specific needs for the task they are going to carry on the other particular on the Gulf.

Feel free to name a single specific need that the navy has and that couldn't be met by the F15s, Tornados or EF s, but only Rafales could meet.
You won't find any! The Maritime attack role is not that demanding and the mentioned fighters to already offers better (EF can be upgraded to that regard) capabilities. That's why the Rafale won't be selected by your navy on technical or operational means.

Would you mind providing us with a materialistic, solid evidence on the claim you made regarding KSA trying to persuade the GCC to buy the EFT instead of the DR?

But in mid-2012, reports started to emerge that Bahrain was looking at acquiring a squadron of more advanced fighters.

Externally there were reports of three different views affecting the decisionwith one keen on Eurofighter Typhoons; another favouring widening the competition for a new fighter to include the Typhoon and the French Dassault Rafale...

...
Bahrain’s interest in the Eurofighter Typhoon is believed to have been encouraged by neighbouring Saudi Arabia, itself already a Typhoon operator, as well as being Bahrain’s largest and closest neighbour and the island Kingdom’s main source of military, political and financial support.

Bahrain and Saudi Arabia already co-operate in the provision of air defence alert duties for the GCC’s ‘Sector B’, which covers Bahrain, Qatar and parts of Saudi Arabia’s air space, responsibility for which is shared between the RBAF and RSAF F-15C squadrons based at Dhahran.

There have been some reports that Saudi Arabia could fund Bahraini Typhoons and that 12 or 14 (reports differ) be added to the next (as yet unannounced, but widely expected) Saudi order for 48 additional aircraft....

Arabian Aerospace - Bahrain Airshow: A look at the Royal Bahraini Air Force

Saudi Typhoon Deal Could Open Door To Further Sales | Aviation International News

Saudi Arabia to finance Jordan Eurofighter deal


UK/BAE is using their relations to your country, to sell more EFs in the region and that based on your influence and financial support. That might not work with the UAE and Qatar, since M2Ks might be bought back, but Bahrain and Kuwait are likely additions to the EF export family in the Gulf.

 

[BATMAN]

Not really, it actually came out last and below the operational requirements the Swiss air force had, but since the Swiss, just like Brazil neither can afford better fighters, nor have the threat perception that would require the best available fighters, they took the most cost-effective solution.

^^non sense...
Swiss evaluated F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen, which appeared as top contender.
Now since India wish UAE to fund Rafale development, for its own sake, that's another discussion.

 

[sancho]

Swiss evaluated F-18
Now since India wish UAE to fund Rafale development, for its own sake, that's another discussion.

LOL, you don't even have a clue which fighters were evaluted, maybe this helps:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UllaAXo7QnY/TtaTpBS5UWI/AAAAAAAACHs/rk5-LU3C3JA/s1600/armassuisse_eval.png

And why would India need the UAE? We are looking at completely different things than they do. We don't need the external hardpoint, nor 3 x Scalp missile configs. We are happy with the thrust of Rafale and don't want to integrate the Sniper pod...
In fact, the UAE might hope for India to fund and start the production of IRST and HMS for the Rafale.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

UK/BAE is using their relations to your country, to sell more EFs in the region and that based on your influence and financial support. That might not work with the UAE and Qatar, since M2Ks might be bought back, but Bahrain and Kuwait are likely additions to the EF export family in the Gulf.

Rubbish. None of these articles which said " unspecified " reports or numerous reports serve as materialistic, solid, and valid pieces of evidence. So unless you have something that is concrete where you can rely upon at hand, there is nothing where your argument could be based upon. Suffice to say that no country has threatened to cut its arms exports to us, let alone " using " our country.

Argumentatively defeated.

Not really, it actually came out last and below the operational requirements the Swiss air force had, but since the Swiss, just like Brazil neither can afford better fighters, nor have the threat perception that would require the best available fighters, they took the most cost-effective solution.

For most of the Gulf countries that can afford better fighters, the Gripen is not even worth evaluating, which is why neither KSA, UAE, Qatar, or even Oman thought about it. And for countries with credible threats like S. Korea, Japan, or India, it's simply not capable enough.




Feel free to name a single specific need that the navy has and that couldn't be met by the F15s, Tornados or EF s, but only Rafales could meet.
You won't find any! The Maritime attack role is not that demanding and the mentioned fighters to already offers better (EF can be upgraded to that regard) capabilities. That's why the Rafale won't be selected by your navy on technical or operational means.




Arabian Aerospace - Bahrain Airshow: A look at the Royal Bahraini Air Force

Saudi Typhoon Deal Could Open Door To Further Sales | Aviation International News

Saudi Arabia to finance Jordan Eurofighter deal


UK/BAE is using their relations to your country, to sell more EFs in the region and that based on your influence and financial support. That might not work with the UAE and Qatar, since M2Ks might be bought back, but Bahrain and Kuwait are likely additions to the EF export family in the Gulf.

^^non sense...
Swiss evaluated F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen, which appeared as top contender.
Now since India wish UAE to fund Rafale development, for its own sake, that's another discussion.

The UAE won't be buying the DR since they stated that they won't be funding any further R&D researches.

UAE Says France's Rafale Deal 'Unworkable' | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[sancho]

Rubbish. None of these articles which said " unspecified " reports or numerous reports serve as materialistic, solid, and valid pieces of evidence.

Wait, there are several reputed aviation magazins reporting the same, but it's contrary to your "believe" it's wrong?
Yeah, that's very argumentative.

The UAE won't be buying the DR since they stated that they won't be funding any further R&D researches.

Did you read the (old) article?

"Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said...
..."The price is ridiculous," the source said

That means the cost Dassault is asking is too high for the UAE and not because any R&D funds. The technical details are already solved and the recent tests of weapons on the external hardpoint, the possible config with 3 x Scalp is all aimed on the UAE. The French politicians even agreed to all the side deals, the UAE wanted, the only point left is the price of the fighter, which is what the UAE is trying to bring down by faking interest in the EF, or F15s, while it is clear that they either simply keep the M2K-9 (which they at the same time keep upgrading for millions), or take Rafale at a certain point.

 

[DacterSaab]

The UAE won't be buying the DR since they stated that they won't be funding any further R&D researches.
UAE Says France's Rafale Deal 'Unworkable' | Defense News | defensenews.com

Old report there are newer reports of UAE's renewed interest for up-to 60 Rafale.

while it is clear that they either simply keep the M2K-9 (which they at the same time keep upgrading for millions), or take Rafale at a certain point.

Egypt may buy their M2ks but they won't be able to buy enough arms to equip 'em.

 

[sancho]

Egypt may buy their M2ks but they won't be able to buy enough arms to equip 'em.

France is trying hard to convince Libya or Egypt to buy them, but they are not cheap, will be free only in a few years, when the Rafales would be ready and available for the UAE. At the same time Libya and Egypt has Mig 29s/35s, F16s, JF 17, J10 and partially even other fighters on offer, so why would they wait for M2K-9s?
The only Mirage 2000s, that can be procured in a shorter timeframe, are older French or the Qatari once, but the latter is available only in a very small number, which makes it only useful as an addition to a M2K fleet (like Indias for example), or countries that can't afford new fighters (Malaysia maybe).

 

[Agent_47]

The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.

Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.

The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece

, even after F3R.


France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…

 

[he-man]

The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.

Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.

The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece

, even after F3R.


France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…

any idea if we are getting any new hmd with pakfa??
maybe we can use that here

 

[Abingdonboy]

The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.

Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.

The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece

, even after F3R.


France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…

Neither of these issues will be present on the IAF's Rafales, a HMDS will be present on their Rafales (TOPSIGHT-I like on IN's MIG-29Ks) and the IAF will more than likely opt for the LITENING G4 over the Damocles LDP.

 

[sancho]

The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.

Nobody is perfect and of course Rafale has it's issues, but some can be dealt by funding additional capabilities. HMS as @Abingdonboy said can be simply added, by integrating the same helmet that IAF and IN has chosen for M2Ks and Mig 29s. The litening is already in a competition with the Damocles to be added to several IAF fighters including M2K and Rafale, I'm pretty sure we will produce the IRST in India and add it to our fighters too. Hopefully SPICE PGMs will be added as well to increase Rafales strike capabilities and additional MAWS to counter some blind spots would be good as well.

 

[halloweene]

The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.

Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.

The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece

, even after F3R.


France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…

Talked to a DA vice president today, HMD IS integrated. About supplementary maws i'm doubtful as you would need to rewire the plane. Btw, mica IR sensors also act as maws...