Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[tvsram1992]

N-LCA is good for carrier defence.
Carrier defense is the ultimate aim of USN.

 

[angeldemon_007]

IAF chief on Germany visit

NEW DELHI (PTI): Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne has embarked on a week-long visit to Germany to strengthen military ties with the European country.

The visit comes at a time when the Defence Ministry is in the final stages of deciding the multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the IAF.

Germany is the lead partner of the four nations manufacturing the Eurofighter Typhoon, which along with the French Dassault Rafale, has been shortlisted for the deal by the ministry.

During the visit, which began Tuesday, the IAF chief may also go to the plant where the Eurofighter Typhoon is manufactured.

He will meet with senior military leadership of that country to strengthen bilateral ties.

India is in final stages of finalising the mega deal and is likely to open the commercial bids of the two shortlisted companies by the end of this month.

The new aircraft will be used by the IAF to replace its aging fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-27 warplanes.

IAF chief on Germany visit - Brahmand.com

 

[sancho]

Rafale: Dassault in very active negotiations with the UAE

Les Echos , September 8

Dassault sent a negotiating team on the spot last weekend to wrap the final details of a technical and commercial proposal. The Emiratis evoke the Dubai Airshow in mid-November. The Brazilian experience, however, urges caution...

...The technical configuration? It should finally be close to the French model, with a radar whose range will be improved, but an engine thrust of 7.5 tonnes and not more than 9 tonnes. The war in Libya did much: it demonstrated the full capabilities of the aircraft. The maintenance component is being finalized and the French Air Force has made a proposal to his counterpart for training and an offer is on the table about the weapons (2ASM and MBDA Meteor missiles)...

Rafale*: Dassault en négociations très actives avec les Emirats, Actualités


Two points that would be interesting for India, because Rafale for us might have more radar range as well and could get METEOR earlier than planned by the French forces.

 

[Executioner]

So, which planes are going to retire from the IAF service.

 

[sancho]

So, which planes are going to retire from the IAF service.

MMRCAs will replace mainly Mig 21s and 27s, all other older fighters will be upgraded and replaced by FGFA later.

 

[luckyyy]

with FGFA around , there is absolutly no need to waste money on MMRCA ..
just buy the Super-MKI's to replace the Mig 21s and 27s , even LCA would be enough to replace these..

 

[MehrotraPrince]

with FGFA around , there is absolutly no need to waste money on MMRCA ..
just buy the Super-MKI's to replace the Mig 21s and 27s , even LCA would be enough to replace these..

Its not just about replacement of old aircrafts. Its about getting latest high technology, along with possible maximum collaboration with European countries.

 

[Archie]

with FGFA around , there is absolutly no need to waste money on MMRCA ..
just buy the Super-MKI's to replace the Mig 21s and 27s , even LCA would be enough to replace these..

The 123 LCA MK1/2 are required to replace 120 Mig21 Bisons
While mmrca will replace 5 Sqds of Mig27 and 2 Sqds of Jaguars
Also u cant just replace a Ground attack fighter with a Air superiority fighter
Both Su30MKI and FGFA are airsuperiority fighters

 

[sancho]

Its not just about replacement of old aircrafts. Its about getting latest high technology, along with possible maximum collaboration with European countries.

Exactly, but luckyy is a fan of Russian fighters, that's why he prefers them and don't understand that this is about way more than just new fighters. But even if technology and industrial advantages wouldn't be important, Kargil showed IAF how important it is not to depend on Russian fighters and weapon only and have capable alternatives. That's why IAF prefered Mirage 2000-5 before, Rafale and EF today over Russian counterparts.

The 123 LCA MK1/2 are required to replace 120 Mig21 Bisons
While mmrca will replace 5 Sqds of Mig27 and 2 Sqds of Jaguars
Also u cant just replace a Ground attack fighter with a Air superiority fighter
Both Su30MKI and FGFA are airsuperiority fighters

Hi Archie, that's not correct like that, because any multi role combat fighter can replace older ground attack fighters. That's why the MKI is already replacing Mig 27 squads in IAF, why Rafale replaces Jags, Mirage and Super Étendard in the ground attack role, or why even the EF will replace Tornados in future.
The difference is, that older fighters were designed specially for one role and to maximise the advantages in this role, like specialised for low level penetration, better armour, or different avionics. So any multi role fighter might be able to strike, but might not be as effective in the same role as a dedicated strike fighter. The Libyan conflict and the different performance of the RAF Tornado and their EFs showed this pretty well. While the EF is a multi role fighter, it lacked the variety of weapons that the Tornado used to fulfill different types of strike roles. Also with the single seat config, RAF pilots reported that the Tornado WSOs often provided the laser guidance, to take away some of the workload of the EF pilots (twin seat EFs are trainers only).
Another example is the F35 that is a multi role fighter as well and will replace F15s in the A2A roles, as well as A10s in the CAS role. But although the weapons and techs makes it useful in both roles, it is not as good as the F15, or the A10. It is not fast and maneuverable enough to be an air superiority fighter, but is too fast and lacks the slow speed maneuverability of the A10 to fulfill the same roles as effectively.
Only a few fighters are designed to be nearly equally good in A2A and A2G, fighters like the F16, or Rafale. That's why they are the more balenced MMRCAs, while an EF/Mig 35 might have some advantages in the A2A role, or an F18SH maybe some advantages in the A2G role.

 

[luckyyy]

The 123 LCA MK1/2 are required to replace 120 Mig21 Bisons
While mmrca will replace 5 Sqds of Mig27 and 2 Sqds of Jaguars
Also u cant just replace a Ground attack fighter with a Air superiority fighter
Both Su30MKI and FGFA are airsuperiority fighters

SU-30MKI is the IAF's Prime Ground attack fighter ..

 

[luckyyy]

Its not just about replacement of old aircrafts. Its about getting latest high technology, along with possible maximum collaboration with European countries.

FGFA is the latest technology..

 

[angeldemon_007]

This is the amateur photo of the year of a Eurofighter Typhoon, selected by a panel of judges.

Note: a photo from Aero India 2011 won the third prize... but this one is a deserving winner


Broadsword: Broadsword compliments: best 2011 amateur photo of a Eurofighter Typhoon

 

[Black Widow]

Exactly, but luckyy is a fan of Russian fighters, that's why he prefers them and don't understand that this is about way more than just new fighters. But even if technology and industrial advantages wouldn't be important, Kargil showed IAF how important it is not to depend on Russian fighters and weapon only and have capable alternatives. That's why IAF prefered Mirage 2000-5 before, Rafale and EF today over Russian counterparts.




Hi Archie, that's not correct like that, because any multi role combat fighter can replace older ground attack fighters. That's why the MKI is already replacing Mig 27 squads in IAF, why Rafale replaces Jags, Mirage and Super Étendard in the ground attack role, or why even the EF will replace Tornados in future.
The difference is, that older fighters were designed specially for one role and to maximise the advantages in this role, like specialised for low level penetration, better armour, or different avionics. So any multi role fighter might be able to strike, but might not be as effective in the same role as a dedicated strike fighter. The Libyan conflict and the different performance of the RAF Tornado and their EFs showed this pretty well. While the EF is a multi role fighter, it lacked the variety of weapons that the Tornado used to fulfill different types of strike roles. Also with the single seat config, RAF pilots reported that the Tornado WSOs often provided the laser guidance, to take away some of the workload of the EF pilots (twin seat EFs are trainers only).
Another example is the F35 that is a multi role fighter as well and will replace F15s in the A2A roles, as well as A10s in the CAS role. But although the weapons and techs makes it useful in both roles, it is not as good as the F15, or the A10. It is not fast and maneuverable enough to be an air superiority fighter, but is too fast and lacks the slow speed maneuverability of the A10 to fulfill the same roles as effectively.
Only a few fighters are designed to be nearly equally good in A2A and A2G, fighters like the F16, or Rafale. That's why they are the more balenced MMRCAs, while an EF/Mig 35 might have some advantages in the A2A role, or an F18SH maybe some advantages in the A2G role.

Dear Sancho, There is a difference between "can do" and "should do". Any fighter can be used for any role, Its all depend what you want them to do. for eg Some country use F16 for Point defence while Pakistan use it as Air-Superiority role.

MMRCA was a requirement for Ground attack fighter, this was the reason F18 and Rafael were front runner. I don't have any specific answer why MMRCAs are for Replacing/complementing Jaguar/MiG27.

According to my limited knowledge This is the composition India uses.
1. Air superiority : Su30 MKI (not all), MiG29
2. Point defence: MiG21
3. Ground attack: Jaguar,MiG27, M2000H
4. Multirole: Su30MKI, MiG29

This will be future configuration:
1. Air superiority : Su30 MKI (not all), MiG29, FGFA/PAK-FA, AMCA(not all)
2. Point defence: MiG21, LCA
3. Ground attack: Jaguar,MiG27, MMRCA, M2000H
4. Multirole: Su30MKI, MiG29, AMCA, May be few FGFA

This is what Govt of India has planned..

 

[Archie]

Exactly, but luckyy is a fan of Russian fighters, that's why he prefers them and don't understand that this is about way more than just new fighters. But even if technology and industrial advantages wouldn't be important, Kargil showed IAF how important it is not to depend on Russian fighters and weapon only and have capable alternatives. That's why IAF prefered Mirage 2000-5 before, Rafale and EF today over Russian counterparts.




Hi Archie, that's not correct like that, because any multi role combat fighter can replace older ground attack fighters. That's why the MKI is already replacing Mig 27 squads in IAF, why Rafale replaces Jags, Mirage and Super Étendard in the ground attack role, or why even the EF will replace Tornados in future.
The difference is, that older fighters were designed specially for one role and to maximise the advantages in this role, like specialised for low level penetration, better armour, or different avionics. So any multi role fighter might be able to strike, but might not be as effective in the same role as a dedicated strike fighter. The Libyan conflict and the different performance of the RAF Tornado and their EFs showed this pretty well. While the EF is a multi role fighter, it lacked the variety of weapons that the Tornado used to fulfill different types of strike roles. Also with the single seat config, RAF pilots reported that the Tornado WSOs often provided the laser guidance, to take away some of the workload of the EF pilots (twin seat EFs are trainers only).
Another example is the F35 that is a multi role fighter as well and will replace F15s in the A2A roles, as well as A10s in the CAS role. But although the weapons and techs makes it useful in both roles, it is not as good as the F15, or the A10. It is not fast and maneuverable enough to be an air superiority fighter, but is too fast and lacks the slow speed maneuverability of the A10 to fulfill the same roles as effectively.
Only a few fighters are designed to be nearly equally good in A2A and A2G, fighters like the F16, or Rafale. That's why they are the more balenced MMRCAs, while an EF/Mig 35 might have some advantages in the A2A role, or an F18SH maybe some advantages in the A2G role.

While u are correct on all counts
but i think u misunderstood my post , which refered to an earlier quote stating that we should replace mig27 and Jaguars by FGFA , not Rafale/EF
Both FGFA and MKI are Primarily Airsuperiority fighters , they can also do SEAD missions as well as Antiship missions , but they cant switch between Air to Air combat to Ground Strike in the same mission , Also MKIs lack anti armour capability , a role performed primarily by IAF Jaguars while suporting Indian Army
While Rafale has proven Omnirole capability with more emphasis on Ground attack than Airsuperiority
While Typhoon is better at Airsuperiority than Ground attack , Infact Typhoon will not achieve Complete ground attack capability similar to rafale before 2015-16

By saying that any multirole aircraft can replace Dedicated ground attack fighter is true , but provided that multirole aircraft is Rafale or F/A18 not EF/Mig35
Since F/A18 is out , so Rafale is the only sensible choice left

 

[Archie]

SU-30MKI is the IAF's Prime Ground attack fighter ..

Su30MKI is the best Aircraft of the IAF , so yes it is capable at ground attack , but it is not as good as Rafale or Super Hornet at this role or for that matter even Gripen NG
Also it lacks anti Tank capability and it needs special modfication to conduct antiship operations as well as carrying Standoff Missiles
Currently 36 MKI have been modified to carry anti ship missiles while another 36 would recieve the Modification
About 50 MKIs will be Upgraded to carry Brahmos cruise missiles

Now compared to that , the 126-190 Rafale , if we acquire them , all of them will be capable of carrying Exocet Antiship Missiles as well as SCALP Cruise missiles
From what i heard India is Looking at acquiring 1000 Anti Tank Brimstone Missiles , 72 Exocet Missiles and 120 Scalp Cruise Missiles along with 126 mmrca , whoever wins
The Number of these Missiles will not Increase even if Number of Aircrafts increase to 190