Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Archie]

Dear Sancho, There is a difference between "can do" and "should do". Any fighter can be used for any role, Its all depend what you want them to do. for eg Some country use F16 for Point defence while Pakistan use it as Air-Superiority role.

MMRCA was a requirement for Ground attack fighter, this was the reason F18 and Rafael were front runner. I don't have any specific answer why MMRCAs are for Replacing/complementing Jaguar/MiG27.

According to my limited knowledge This is the composition India uses.
1. Air superiority : Su30 MKI (not all), MiG29
2. Point defence: MiG21
3. Ground attack: Jaguar,MiG27
4. Multirole: Su30MKI, MiG29

This will be future configuration:
1. Air superiority : Su30 MKI (not all), MiG29, FGFA/PAK-FA, AMCA(not all)
2. Point defence: MiG21, LCA
3. Ground attack: Jaguar,MiG27, MMRCA
4. Multirole: Su30MKI, MiG29, AMCA, May be few FGFA

This is what Govt of India has planned..

Dude u need to edit Future configurations , since Jaguars are supose to retire by 2022, while Mig29 will retire in 2026

 

[atul]

where is Mirage 2000, 51 of which India possesses

 

[sancho]

Dear Sancho, There is a difference between "can do" and "should do". Any fighter can be used for any role, Its all depend what you want them to do. for eg Some country use F16 for Point defence while Pakistan use it as Air-Superiority role.

MMRCA was a requirement for Ground attack fighter, this was the reason F18 and Rafael were front runner.

It's true that different nations can use the same fighters for different purposes, but that is only possible if the fighter is multi role capable!
For example, the IAF Jaguars are dedicated ground attack fighters, which depending on version might have some self defence capability (IR missiles), but can't be deployed in any A2A role, that's why they are single role fighters! Similarly the Mig 29s were single role fighters so far, because they had no ground attack capability (same for PAFs F16s), but they will be added with the upgrade now, what makes them to multi role fighters.

MMRCA like the name says it, searches for a medium multi role combat aircraft, so ground attack capability is just one part of the requirements. The reason why it might have a prioirity is, because IAF searches for a fighter that is complementing the MKI and FGFA, that are meant to be the prime A2A fighters.

 

[sancho]

Both FGFA and MKI are Primarily Airsuperiority fighters , they can also do SEAD missions as well as Antiship missions , but they cant switch between Air to Air combat to Ground Strike in the same mission

No I got your point, but it's the usual difficulty to define the term "multi role", because it describes different fighters with different capabilities and some countries/manufacturers have also their own terms for pretty much the same, which makes it even more complicated.

Let me try to explain it (the way I understands it), on basis of the LCA.

The LCA is developed as an multi role fighter, which as explained earlier means, that it can be used in A2A roles like interception / point defence similar to the Mig 21s, but also in strike roles where it can carry similar loads like the Jaguars.

Mig 21 and LCA in a possible A2A configs

Jaguar and LCA in a possible A2G configs

Now what you decribed for the MKI is the term "swing role" (often used from the EF consortium), which means that a fighter can switch between 2 roles at the same time. That is basically possible, if the fighter carries an A2A load while beeing on another mission, because it is still able to engage enemy fighters in BVR and WVR combats:

Here is a EF "Swing role" config

Similarly, a Rafale in "Swing role" config during a reconnaissance mission

Now when you compare that with the Jaguar and LCA in strike configs above, it gets clear that they have only self defence capabilities and would require additional fighter escorts to fulfill their roles.
Omni role is just the term that the French/Dassault uses to describe Rafales design/development goal, which was to be:

...a balanced multirole aircraft that would be able to replace seven types of combat aircraft then in use.

Omnirole by design


So an "Omni role" fighter is a multi role fighter that is not primarily designed for A2A, with secondary A2G capabilities, but is meant to be more balanced and versatile by the design itself!
And to come back to the LCA as the base again, since it was designed primarily to be an interceptor, with secondary strike capabilities, it is not an "Omni role" fighter.

 

[Black Widow]

Dude u need to edit Future configurations , since Jaguars are supose to retire by 2022, while Mig29 will retire in 2026

I said Future configuration, I didn't mention timeline. Its implicit (and understood) that The fighter you said will retire. I thought the reader here will understand it, so I rather not bother to mention it.

where is Mirage 2000, 51 of which India possesses

I am sorry, I forgot to add Mirage, M2000H is been used as ground attack Aircraft in Indian AF. I will edit my post...

It's true that different nations can use the same fighters for different purposes, but that is only possible if the fighter is multi role capable!
For example, the IAF Jaguars are dedicated ground attack fighters, which depending on version might have some self defence capability (IR missiles), but can't be deployed in any A2A role, that's why they are single role fighters! Similarly the Mig 29s were single role fighters so far, because they had no ground attack capability (same for PAFs F16s), but they will be added with the upgrade now, what makes them to multi role fighters.

MMRCA like the name says it, searches for a medium multi role combat aircraft, so ground attack capability is just one part of the requirements. The reason why it might have a prioirity is, because IAF searches for a fighter that is complementing the MKI and FGFA, that are meant to be the prime A2A fighters.

I agree with your point "only Multi-role Fighter can be used for different role by different AFs. It may be true (As you pointed out), some of the MMRCA fighter can be used for Multirole. But truly speaking I don't see any logic behind too many Multirole platform in IAF (MKI and MiG29 already Multi-role). As per my knowledge Airsuperiority fighters are Costliest (So not all MKIs are AS, Multirole is little cheaper, Ground attack role fighter is cheapest.)

So if we see economics behind it, I don see India will have 300+ MR fighter.

 

[SpArK]

Burst the Emirates three reasons to believe



The record of the sale of Rafale in the UAE seems to again move in the right direction. Failing to be optimistic, we can still find some reason to be. Detailed review of three reasons to believe it.

1. Libya
The Delegate General for Armaments Laurent Collet-Billon was not hiding behind his little finger during the Summer of Defense, September 6. Libyan conflict? "In commercial matters, there is no better advertisement for the Rafale that this kind of operation. "Recognition, air superiority, strike targeted: the French fighter has shown his versatility in the field, the front line. And validated the performance of the AASM and Scalp missiles. "The Scalp was delivered with remarkable precision of one meter," said the DGA. Many assets to seduce the prospect UAE, who would not buy just a plane, but a weapon system.

2. Specifications lowered

Consequence of this efficiency: the Emirates seem to have abandoned much of the technical improvements claimed in the beginning. The version proposed by Dassault should finally be close to the model of the French Air Force, providing just a Thales radar range improved (said active antenna) compared to its RBE2 an imperative for the country fearing a threat Iran's very close. Abu Dhabi, however, seems to have abandoned an increase in engine thrust Snecma M88 to 9 tonnes: the customer is satisfied the current 7.5 tons of thrust.

3. A real market for the Mirage 2000-9


This is one of contention in negotiations with the UAE: what to do with the sixty Mirage 2000-9 of the UAE Air Force in case of purchase of the Rafale? Abu Dhabi calls for a resumption of the devices by France, which does not afford, even if the Air Force would not necessarily have winced at the idea of ​​performance and recover the aircraft to replace its recent Mirage F-1 end of life, for example.

The only solution seems to sell these devices in other countries. A 20 million euros each, a figure mentioned in today's Echo, the operation seems playable, although complex, the plane is excellent, the Emiratis are very happy. Egypt, Pakistan and Iraq have recently even been quoted in the press as potential customers. "The market at this price level, is much more open for a new appliance type Rafale, explained recently Challenges Richard Aboulafia, vice president of U.S. consultancy Teal Group, a specialist in defense. Stop production of the Mirage 2000 may have been a big mistake on the part of Dassault. "



Rafale aux Emirats : trois raisons d'y croire : Supersonique

 

[marcos98]

 

[sancho]

Rafale leading in Swiss competition!

One swing from above

The Federal Council wants to make the decision for a new-type fighter jet in the fall. The results of the evaluation are confidential. Yet now seeping through the results

The purchase of new fighter aircraft for the Swiss army has so far been anything but straightforward. Three providers of fighter jets were once invited to the competition. After completing the evaluation of the procurement decision, however, was postponed by several years. Now, however, is at the decision - and research shows the Basler Zeitung, that two of the tested types of aircraft in terms of technical capabilities that have the front nose. The lowest priced jet has therefore lost much of the competition. The French supplier Dassault Rafale, which has won with his methods. Close behind, in second place, followed by the Euro Fighter of the arms company, EADS, in which the countries Germany, Great Britain, Italy and Spain are involved...

Google Übersetzer

 

[sancho]

I agree with your point "only Multi-role Fighter can be used for different role by different AFs. It may be true (As you pointed out), some of the MMRCA fighter can be used for Multirole. But truly speaking I don't see any logic behind too many Multirole platform in IAF (MKI and MiG29 already Multi-role). As per my knowledge Airsuperiority fighters are Costliest (So not all MKIs are AS, Multirole is little cheaper, Ground attack role fighter is cheapest.)

So if we see economics behind it, I don see India will have 300+ MR fighter.

Didn't get your point why air superiority fighters are more expensive, but all MKIs are multi role fighters for and although I also think that sometimes it's more useful to have specialised fighters/aircrafts, the general increase of MRCA is very logical. Today IAF fleet is pretty much half A2A fighters, half A2G, because most of them are single role fighters only. So even if a total of 707 fighters (according BRs fleet strenght) sounds high, not all of them can be used for air defence and very few only for credible strikes. With the upgrades of M2Ks and Mig 29s + the induction of LCAs, MMRCAs and more MKIs for Mig 21s and 27, IAF will have more fighters useful for air defence AND strikes, which makes them automatically more capable.
My objection however is, that beeing multi role capable, doesn't automatically means you are good in all roles. I don't think an F18SH is a very good air defence fighter, just like I don't think the EF would be a very good strike fighter. So while inducting multi role combat aircrafts, there should be a focus on a balanced fleet as well and why I think IAF badly needs a fighter like Rafale, next to LCA, MKI/FGFA in future, that adds more capabilities in the strike role. It's good performance in A2A is just a bonus, but with al ready 3 fighters designed for A2A, adding the EF with so low A2G capabilities simply doesn't make sense.
Same reason why I would prefer an AURA UCAV over AMCA, because it balances the capabilities of the IAF fleet way better than AMCA could do, besides the advantages that it's more cost-effective and can be deployed in higher numbers.

 

[Archie]

Same reason why I would prefer an AURA UCAV over AMCA, because it balances the capabilities of the IAF fleet way better than AMCA could do, besides the advantages that it's more cost-effective and can be deployed in higher numbers.

About that,
I dont think that u have seen the specs of AURA and AMCA
AMCA will Have a Max takeoff Weight of around 25 Tons , With atleast 6000 Kg of Payload , 10 Hardpoints and Top Speed of 1.8 Mach , as well as Super Cruise and Thrust vectoring Capability , a lot of the tech that we get from mmrca winner as well PAKFA will be incorporated into AMCA
The Initial AMCA order is for 150 Aircrafts for IAF , with 40-50 for Navy
Compared to that AURA will have Max Takeoff weight of 15 Tons , Payload of 2500Kg , 4 Internal Hardpoints as well as Range of 1500-2000 Km , it will have a High Subsonic Top speed,
Hence there is no way that AURA will replace a Fighter , What it can do is Took up certain Roles which were earliar performed by Fighters like Providing close Air support to Army as well as Anti Armour operations , Targeting enemy Radar infrastructure coz it will have far lower RCS than any fighter and could sneak into enemy territory undetected

AMCA is required to Replace 51 Mirage 2000 and 100 Jaguars Starting 2025 ,
Also if u look at it India has an option to Induct 90 more FGFA should there be a delay in AMCA , as India has Placed an Initial order for 54 PAKFA FROM Russia followed by Indigenous Production of 160 FGFA

It is unlikely that UCAVs will replace fighters in near future , they will complement them instead
Indian Air force is likely to acquire 80 AURA UCAVs while Army may acquire up to 100

 

[sancho]

Same reason why I would prefer an AURA UCAV over AMCA, because it balances the capabilities of the IAF fleet way better than AMCA could do, besides the advantages that it's more cost-effective and can be deployed in higher numbers.

About that,
I dont think that u have seen the specs of AURA and AMCA
AMCA will Have a Max takeoff Weight of around 25 Tons , With atleast 6000 Kg of Payload , 10 Hardpoints and Top Speed of 1.8 Mach , as well as Super Cruise and Thrust vectoring Capability , a lot of the tech that we get from mmrca winner as well PAKFA will be incorporated into AMCA
The Initial AMCA order is for 150 Aircrafts for IAF , with 40-50 for Navy
Compared to that AURA will have Max Takeoff weight of 15 Tons , Payload of 2500Kg , 4 Internal Hardpoints as well as Range of 1500-2000 Km , it will have a High Subsonic Top speed,
Hence there is no way that AURA will replace a Fighter , What it can do is Took up certain Roles which were earliar performed by Fighters like Providing close Air support to Army as well as Anti Armour operations , Targeting enemy Radar infrastructure coz it will have far lower RCS than any fighter and could sneak into enemy territory undetected

AMCA is required to Replace 51 Mirage 2000 and 100 Jaguars Starting 2025 ,
Also if u look at it India has an option to Induct 90 more FGFA should there be a delay in AMCA , as India has Placed an Initial order for 54 PAKFA FROM Russia followed by Indigenous Production of 160 FGFA

It is unlikely that UCAVs will replace fighters in near future , they will complement them instead
Indian Air force is likely to acquire 80 AURA UCAVs while Army may acquire up to 100

It's not because of the specs, which are not fixed yet either and the 10 hardpoints for AMCA are way too much:

Livefist: The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)


The point was, since we already will have a multi role stealth fighter, which will take over the main air superioirty part and a very strong base of 4.5 gen multi role LCA, MMRCA, MKIs, the IAF fleet would be more balanced with a 5th gen stealth UCAV like AURA, which takes over the main strike roles. AMCA, is now aimed to be a smaller FGFA, with similar features and no real advantages in performance and that's why it wouldn't balance the fleet, while IAF could simply procure more FGFAs and AURAs, for the same, or even less costs than developing, inducting and operating another fighter type!

AURA would be even the perfect aircraft to replace the Jaguar fleet, although Jags are called fighters, they are limited to A2G roles only and all of them could be taken over from AURA. More over, loaded with AAMs and coupled with an FGFA and the SATCOM data links, FGFA could be used in the same "Mini AWACS" roles that the MKI does today, while AURA with it's low RCS, could be used in front of it and the FGFA WSO could even guide the missiles. A similar tactics that the IAF used with MKI and Mig 21s in exercises, or that the French forces show with Rafale:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-323.html#post1673491

(post #4844)


And no, AMCA is not meant to replace M2K, Mig27/29 and Jags, but to be used in their roles, just like MMRCAs will be, but these fighters will be replaced in numbers by nearly the same numbers of FGFA.
There are other reasons for AMCA, but not an operational requirement or need in IAF!

 

[Black Widow]

Didn't get your point why air superiority fighters are more expensive, but all MKIs are multi role fighters for and although I also think that sometimes it's more useful to have specialised fighters/aircrafts, the general increase of MRCA is very logical. Today IAF fleet is pretty much half A2A fighters, half A2G, because most of them are single role fighters only. So even if a total of 707 fighters (according BRs fleet strenght) sounds high, not all of them can be used for air defence and very few only for credible strikes. With the upgrades of M2Ks and Mig 29s + the induction of LCAs, MMRCAs and more MKIs for Mig 21s and 27, IAF will have more fighters useful for air defence AND strikes, which makes them automatically more capable.
My objection however is, that beeing multi role capable, doesn't automatically means you are good in all roles. I don't think an F18SH is a very good air defence fighter, just like I don't think the EF would be a very good strike fighter. So while inducting multi role combat aircrafts, there should be a focus on a balanced fleet as well and why I think IAF badly needs a fighter like Rafale, next to LCA, MKI/FGFA in future, that adds more capabilities in the strike role. It's good performance in A2A is just a bonus, but with al ready 3 fighters designed for A2A, adding the EF with so low A2G capabilities simply doesn't make sense.
Same reason why I would prefer an AURA UCAV over AMCA, because it balances the capabilities of the IAF fleet way better than AMCA could do, besides the advantages that it's more cost-effective and can be deployed in higher numbers.

From Wikipedia:: "An air superiority fighter is a type of fighter aircraft intended to gain air superiority in a war, by entering and seizing control of enemy airspace. Air superiority fighters are designed to effectively engage enemy fighters, more than other types of aircraft. They are usually more expensive and procured in fewer numbers than multirole fighters."

I agree with rest of your post.





I don't know IAF configuration, I don't know if all MKIs will be Multirole or few of them will be Air-Superiority fighter only... Only a good analyst can answer it...

 

[sancho]

From Wikipedia:: "An air superiority fighter is a type of fighter aircraft intended to gain air superiority in a war, by entering and seizing control of enemy airspace. Air superiority fighters are designed to effectively engage enemy fighters, more than other types of aircraft. They are usually more expensive and procured in fewer numbers than multirole fighters."

I agree with rest of your post.





I don't know IAF configuration, I don't know if all MKIs will be Multirole or few of them will be Air-Superiority fighter only... Only a good analyst can answer it...

That's just a general statement, but has nothing to do with MKI. All Flankers above the initial Su 27 are multi role fighters, be it the Su 30, 33, 34, or 35 and the MKI is just a customised Su 30.

 

[sancho]

More detailed report from the Swiss competition!

Rafale, the favorite

avia news, sept 15

The National Council voted today the credit necessary to purchase 22 new fighter jets, which boosts the purchasing program!...

...Evaluation results:

According to official results sent by Armasuisse, test results are as follows:
1 Rafale
2 Eurofighter
3 Gripen C / D (Gripen NG is proposed now, but could not participate in the evaluation).

The Rafale as favorite

The industrial partnership:

The industrial consortium Rafale International - composed of Dassault Aviation, Snecma (Safra Group) and Thales, MBDA and its subcontractors are able to offer a Swiss industrial and scientific cooperation for the benefit of all its cantons. This offer affects the whole range of suppliers ie: the military with the Rafale, but also the civilian sector, which includes programs for Falcon business jets, the calendar type CFM56 engines and avionics for aircraft and helicopters. Some elements of the Rafale already occurred in Switzerland (glass cockpit, fuel tank and more recently additional elements of the radar Thales RBE2).

The offer provides the outsourcing of many structural components, final assembly and maintenance in Switzerland for the entire program Rafale as well as research and development. The manufacture of weapons (missiles MICA) is also proposed and the development of helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT are also concerned systems such as the system of self-protection spectrum and the second generation of OSF.

According to Dassault, the Rafale aircraft would be the best for our country, because a close collaboration with both military and industry are encouraged. In addition, the latest version (F3 +) tested in Switzerland responded to 95% in the specifications and offers the following possibilities:

-ability to flight mode "Supercruise."
-Short take-off.
-Range and capacity for prolonged flight long surveillance missions.
-Fast implementation including soldiers of the militia.
-Easy integration of the works already constructed.

Multisensor system proposed:

The proposed version of the Rafale for our country is the most recent available is the standard 04T with the wiring for the METEOR missile, the Damocles pod XF and the new architecture IDM. The unit will have:

-AESA radar Thales RBE-2AA.
-SPECTRA autopotection system.
-OSF (Front Sector optics) next generation.
-In connection 16 (Link16) next generation (MIDS).
-Data fusion system NCW (Net Centric Warfare).

Also, it is not excluded that a more powerful version of SNECMA M-88 will be available (to be confirmed in relation to the contract in the UAE).


The offer for the Eurofighter:

Industrial cooperation

Industrial cooperation based on the group formed by the Eurofighter partner companies such as Alenia Aeronautica (Italy), BAE Systems (Great Britain) and EADS (Germany and Spain), responsible for development and production of the Eurofighter. The company responsible for developing the engine of the Eurofighter GmbH is EUROJET, whose shareholders are Rolls-Royce (Great Britain), MTU Aero Engines (Germany) Avio SpA (Italy) and ITP Industria de Turbo Propulsores SA (Spain). In addition, the Eurofighter consortium is completed by over 400 international contractors and their parent companies or affiliates.

According to EADS, Eurofighter aircraft suited for missions in the mountains and especially in the airspace of Switzerland meets the following requirements:

* steep gradients of approach and departure air bases in altitude
* extremely short take-off distance without post-combustion, including full load
* less noise and exhaust
* capacity "Supercruise" (ability to reach supersonic speed without turning on the heats), including full load
* prolonged flight time in the police missions and air surveillance of the airspace, which reduces the required fleet
* arrived very quickly in the mission area.

Facilities:

The integrated management of the mission and armament for the Eurofighter merges data from all the various sensors and the arrival of the AESA radar "Captor-E." The man-machine interface optimized "Carefree Handling" the discharge of certain tasks. Furthermore, multifunction displays, autopilot modes and a voice control system allows the pilot to concentrate fully on its mission.

Multisensor system proposed:

* Radar AESA CAPTOR-E
* System PIRATE (Passive Infrared Airborne Tracking Equipment).
* MIDS / Link 16 (-Multifunction Information Distribution System-).
* DASS Chaff / Flares (Defensive Aids Sub-System).
* Pod-measures against electronic towed.

The supply of Gripen...

...Comments:

To date, the Rafale from favorite to not only thanks to its excellent test scores but also by the offers in industry. The plane corresponds to the budget and offers excellent prospects for modernization. Eurofighter in turn improves technically, but suffers in terms of cost! It is indeed the most expensive to buy and obviously exceed (according to list price) the budget of Switzerland, its maintenance is also the most expensive! Gripen seemed well placed, but the version C / D tested is exceeded and the "NG" suffering for the time lag in its development and may therefore be too late, it seems more industrial supply lack of collateral.

It should nevertheless expect the update offers, but it is true that Dassault Aviation could win the bid and offer our two countries a new era in aviation cooperation!

http://translate.google.at/translate?hl=de&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/

 

[sudhir007]

The Hindu : News / National : IAF hopes to finalise combat aircraft deal by year-end

Hoping to finalise the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal by the year-end, Indian Air Force on Thursday said the commercial bids of two short-listed vendors in the MMRCA tender would be opened by middle of next month.

“We have a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council on October 7 where some of the issues are going to be discussed. Once those issued are cleared, hopefully by the middle of month, we should be in a position to open the bids,” Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne said in New Delhi.

He was asked to comment on the acquisition schedule of these aircraft which are expected to be inducted in the IAF by 2014.

Air Chief Marshal Browne was talking to reporters on the sidelines of the Sixth International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Industry organised by Confederation of Indian Industry (CII).

Earlier, addressing the conference, the IAF Chief said, “We are in final stages of this process (of signing the contract for MMRCA) and (it will be done) hopefully by the end of the year.”

On the offset value of the deal, he said, “Offsets for this programme amount to Rs. 20,000 crore plus and these are going to be in service for over a period of 13 years.”

To a query on comparison between Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and MMRCA, he said, “These are two different kinds of aeroplanes. MMRCA does not have stealth features and super cruise capability while FGFA has all that.”

FGFA has recess armament base where all the missiles and weapons are located inside the aircraft, which gives it a certain amount of stealth potential, he said.

India is developing the FGFA as a joint venture with Russia.