Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):

SP's Aviation August 2011 e-Magazine - SP's Aviation

 

[sancho]

Interesting news from the Brazilian competition, where the Rafale consortium held a presentation to the Committee on External Relations and National Defense:

FX-2, Rafale presentation to the Committee on External Relations and National Defense

...# The Rafale advantages:

* Twin engine aircraft for more power and safety (flying over dangerous areas like Amazon forest or Atlantic ocean)
* Omnirole capability : perform Air to Air, ground attack and tactical or strategic reconnaissance mission in the same flight.
* Replace several types of aircrafts : simplify logistic and crew training.
* The only aircraft able to carry 1.5 times its empty weight while remaining very compact.
* Range/payload efficiency sligtly better than the much larger Super Hornet and far better than the Gripen.
* Production garanteed until 2030 for French need only.
* Ranked first in Korea contest (F-15 won on political ground only)
* Shortlisted by India who dismissed both the Gripen and the Super Hornet
* Navy version operational on medium carriers (unlike Gripen)
* 90-95% commonality between the navy and Air Force Version allowing common logistic support and crew training

# Transfer of technology:

* 100% from french origin
* French Transfer of technology only depends on the French presidency (unlike US TOT which need the Congress agreement) and has already been granted
* Transfer of technology is considered as a part of the strategic partnership betweenBrazil and France and will be without restriction

# Offset Examples :

* Integation of new weapons through source code transfer
* Production of the Rafale wings for Brazil, France and other export costumers
* Production of the Radar
* Engine maintenance
* Development of new weapons
* Future devolopments for Brazilian or French needs
* When acquired by Brazilian engineers, the techologies are not restricted and can be used in other strategic areas
* Dassault, Thales and Snecma has already a strong cooperation experience with the Brazilian Industry
* Offsets reach 160% of the aircrafts purchase (both in defense and civilian projects)
* Direct offer to purchase a dozen of Brazilian KC-390 including French industry support for the aircraft development

# Low risk program with strong commitment from both French government and industry

Rafale News: FX-2, Rafale presentation to the Committee on External Relations and National Defense


The shortlisting in MMRCA is now a strong point for Rafale and the EF and it's intereresting that they even quote the former Air Chief. The production of wings for export Rafales might effect us only for the first 18 fighters, or the early licence produced, while the rest will be build in India. But it gives an idea about what they could offer to India as well, because some parts of the whole production would be diverted to India too and it is interesting to see, that Brazil only gets a maintenance hub for the engines, while India might get way more in this area.
Maybe the key difference to the US arms, is not only that we get key ToT of the fighter, but also are able to used them unrestricted!



Some scans from the presentation:

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

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[Dash]

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):

SP's Aviation August 2011 e-Magazine - SP's Aviation

In the Mirage upgrade article the IAF guy has mentioned about Meteor in teh package. Do you think he is right?

 

[rockstarIN]

I switch to Rafale...

---------- Post added at 01:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

Still love EFT

 

[Executioner]

Hi, Can anyone update me How many birds are coming to India ?

 

[sancho]

In the Mirage upgrade article the IAF guy has mentioned about Meteor in teh package. Do you think he is right?

No I don't think so, once because the missile is still in development stage and not integrated in the prime fighters that will use it (Gripen, Rafale and EF), an integration into M2K (especially in such low numbers) would be very costly and not useful. But there are operational issues as well, because I don't think the radar will be able to fully support METEOR, or that it might be carried only on 2 hardpoints of the wings, while it might be too long for the hardpoints at the fuselage, which normally carries MICA.

Hi, Can anyone update me How many birds are coming to India ?

Fixed are 126 (18 of the shelf and 108 licence produced) with 64 optional. Rumored are 40 for SFC and the IN competition is for at least another 40.

 

[nikhilarya]

EFT all the way. i been long a fan of EFT, it will bring best tech of Europe in India.

 

[nikhilarya]

i always like ur posts, u r good

 

[DacterSaab]

No I don't think so, once because the missile is still in development stage and not integrated in the prime fighters that will use it (Gripen, Rafale and EF), an integration into M2K (especially in such low numbers) would be very costly and not useful. But there are operational issues as well, because I don't think the radar will be able to fully support METEOR, or that it might be carried only on 2 hardpoints of the wings, while it might be too long for the hardpoints at the fuselage, which normally carries MICA.

hi Sancho. have you considered that the French themselves are going to use M2Ks upto 2030 untill the last french air force Rafale is manufactured and delivered to them. Also IAF may want to integrate Meteor on 200+ LCA. I have arrived at the number on the basis of reports that the IAF has firm requirements of 10 squads worth of LCA and 1 LCA squad has 20 fighters. the Naval orders will be extra but will not make much of a difference to the total. If navy would like to go the CATOBAR way then the LCA may be reconfigured to CATOBAR naval variant a technology that would be part of the N-MMRCA winner TOT which most certainly would be either Rafale or JSF thats the shortlist in my opinion for N-MMRCA.

 

[aimarraul]

Mega jet deal could be split: Ex-NSA told US

Mega jet deal could be split: Ex-NSA told US - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: Although US firms lost out on India's mega fighter deal, former national security adviser M K Narayanan had told US diplomats that the $10 billion buy could be split into two contracts and that he would ask Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to keep both price and quality in mind.

The US aircraft were finally knocked on technical grounds, but higher pricing of fighters like the F-18 series put them at a disadvantage with regard to European rivals and discussion on the deal came up before Singh's Washington visit in 2009. According to WikiLeaks, a US cable from New Delhi spoke of undersecretary Bill Burns meeting with Narayanan to preview the visit during which Narayanan expressed personal interest in "counterterrorism deliverables" and suggested the Indian government may ultimately split the tender.

Narayanan also assured Burns of progress on civil nuclear cooperation ahead of the visit, including the imminent public announcement of reactor park sites for US firms and requested lifting of restrictions on high technology trade and expanded space cooperation.

In an indication of the clout he enjoyed in the PMO, Narayanan offered his personal assistance in brokering inter-ministerial approval of the counterterrorism deliverable, the proposed Law Enforcement and Security Cooperation Initiative.

In the one-on-one meeting, Narayanan suggested that the fighter tender may be split between two recipients, and that he would recommend that PM Singh take into consideration "both price and quality".

India had no "confrontation" with the US on outer space, and nothing stood in the way of further cooperation and this could fill the void left by the completion of the civil nuclear cooperation agreement.

 

[sancho]

hi Sancho. have you considered that the French themselves are going to use M2Ks upto 2030 untill the last french air force Rafale is manufactured and delivered to them. Also IAF may want to integrate Meteor on 200+ LCA. I have arrived at the number on the basis of reports that the IAF has firm requirements of 10 squads worth of LCA and 1 LCA squad has 20 fighters. the Naval orders will be extra but will not make much of a difference to the total. If navy would like to go the CATOBAR way then the LCA may be reconfigured to CATOBAR naval variant a technology that would be part of the N-MMRCA winner TOT which most certainly would be either Rafale or JSF thats the shortlist in my opinion for N-MMRCA.

France will operate the M2K for longer, but Rafale will be the prime fighter especially in the A2A role. Also their M2K Cs and Bs will have the same problem that I mentioned above, that METEOR would be carried only on 2 hardpoints, so using M2K-5s with up to 6 x MICAs in the escort role makes more sense.
India will not buy METEOR for LCA, because LCA is meant to be a low cost fighter, that's why Russian and Indian weapons are meant for it, with some Israeli alternatives. In the BVR field Astra is meant to be the prime missile for LCA (also for MKI), with R77 and Derby used till Astra is operational.
N-LCA is not a good carrier fighter and when you want to project your power, or even to compete with China, you don't put your least capable fighter on IAC2!
If Rafale will be selected in MMRCA, I think the chances for a combined order of the navy are good, but might depend on political reasons too. I expect the US to provide us catapults only if we buy a US fighter and possibly the E-2D. Migs, Sea Gripens and Sea Typhoons have no chance at all, because they are less capable, not developed yet.

 

[sancho]

Google translated

Export: imminent departure for the Rafale?

United Arab Emirates, India and Qatar, three markets in which Dassault Aviation could finally win.

This is one of the major challenges for the military aviation industry: the French Rafale fighter aircraft will fly there one day in a foreign air force? So far Dassault Aviation has drawn a blank, the manufacturer, often ridiculed for its failures in international tenders, however, could soon be celebrating its first export contract by the end of the year by selling some sixty devices in the United Arab Emirates (UAE), which seem to finally afford one of the jewels of the French military technology ("La Tribune" of August 5)...

Google Übersetzer


In the presentation of the Rafale consortium in Brazil the UAE was even shown as an Rafale customer, which indicates how far the negotiations are now.

 

[DacterSaab]

India will not buy METEOR for LCA, because LCA is meant to be a low cost fighter, that's why Russian and Indian weapons are meant for it, with some Israeli alternatives. In the BVR field Astra is meant to be the prime missile for LCA (also for MKI), with R77 and Derby used till Astra is operational.
N-LCA is not a good carrier fighter and when you want to project your power, or even to compete with China, you don't put your least capable fighter on IAC2!
If Rafale will be selected in MMRCA, I think the chances for a combined order of the navy are good, but might depend on political reasons too. I expect the US to provide us catapults only if we buy a US fighter and possibly the E-2D. Migs, Sea Gripens and Sea Typhoons have no chance at all, because they are less capable, not developed yet.

But weren't there reports a sometime back that IAF wanted to integrate MICA on LCAs and even Americans were offering Light weight weapons for LCA. Raytheon was the company unless I'm mistaken.
I don't think we'll operate only 1 type of aircraft from IAC-2 cause Navy has already said they'll operate both MiG-29s and LCAs from Vikramaditya and IAC-1. LCA being light weight will be easier to scramble and be good for point defense, interception and Scouting/Short distance Patrolling.
I think the US will provide us catapults even if we don't buy JSF we've already purchased E2Ds. I think Rafale is a good option only if both IAF and Navy choose it so If IAF buy EFT then the navy should buy JSF cause at least it's a 5th gen fighter. Either way navy'll need a Light weight fighter for that we can either Purchase Sea Gripen or develop a CATOBAR variant of LCA the latter being the more probable cause it makes no sense to buy 5-6 Sea Gripens. I personally dont want JSF on IAC-2 cause it's not very good for A2A missions.

Also Why buy Fighters for SFC we should purchase Tu-160s

 

[sancho]

But weren't there reports a sometime back that IAF wanted to integrate MICA on LCAs and even Americans were offering Light weight weapons for LCA. Raytheon was the company unless I'm mistaken.

With the selection of Derby the BVR missile field should be done and only because certain companies offers weapons, it doesn't meant that we have to buy them, not even that their countries will allow the sale at the end. Keep in mind tha the US rejected several sales, JVs and consultancy offers of US companies for the LCA project.

LCA being light weight will be easier to scramble and be good for point defense, interception and Scouting/Short distance Patrolling.

Maybe at shore bases, but not from a carrier and in A2A it is inferiour to the Mig 29SMT, let alone the J15 as a potential opponent. Light weight fighters are simply no good carrier fighters and that's why it's a bad choice to go for an N-LCA!

I think the US will provide us catapults even if we don't buy JSF we've already purchased E2Ds.

we didn't purchased the E-2Ds, IN evaluates it, but mainly for their shore based AWACS requirement and as long as the design of IAC 2 is not fixed (STOBAR/CATOBAR), there is no use in buying that aircraft.

Also Why buy Fighters for SFC we should purchase Tu-160s

It's just rumored and meant for the 2nd strike capability, in close range. India don't need long range bombers.

But back to topic again.