Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[SpArK]

 

[SpArK]

 

[sancho]

i never gets what's the logic buying a twine engine fighter again in MMRCA when IAF already operating SU-30MKI , i mean inplace buying another twine engine platform , why not just add more MKIs .....atleast it will significatly reduce the infrastructure and training burden that a new platform will bring...

Because medium class twin engine is not equal to heavy class twin engine! The heavy class Flankers will require more maintenance and more fuel compared to medium class fighters, especially compared to western fighters, because they have spares longer life and longer maintenance timeframes. The quality is simply very different and that adds much to the costs, which counters the commonality advantage of more Flankers. Besides reducing operational costs is not an important point in MMRCA!

Looks like DBC wins the war with sancho on EPE engine ..... seems GE themselves are going to fund on there own...

Not really, because we discussed if the USN has funded the EPE yet and this just proves once more that they have not, nor have interest in it! On the other hand it also confirms that MMRCA / IAF requires higher thrust for more flight performance and GE seems to understands that they have no other option than fund it alone, if the F18SH should fulfill the requirements.
But don't forget this:

IAF Rejects last minute offer for powerful engine from one of MMRCA contenders

The Indian Air Force has decided against accepting any last minute offers from the contenders of the multi-billion dollar deal for purchase of 126 fighter aircraft even as it rejected a bidder”s proposal to equip its warplanes with a more powerful jet engine.

“No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials,” IAF sources said here...

...“One defence firm had proposed to equip its aircraft with a more powerful engine along with a host of other capabilities but it was rejected as the aircraft has already undergone trials and we can”t allow firms to make last minute offers,” they added.

Though the IAF has accepted some of the futuristic capabilities offered by the companies but they were proposed in the original bid itself by the respective companies, they said...

IAF Rejects last minute offer for powerful engine from one of MMRCA contenders | idrw.org


The EPE engine is not available now and was not fielded in the trials, so it looks like an desperate attempt, but it will be interesting if MoD will intervene and rule out IAF and their requirements here. The ball is now in MoDs hand and "now" politics will play a role for sure!

 

[SpArK]

But still

 

[sancho]

By the fact we are at F18SH, here are some interesting infos on the AN/ALQ-218 wingtip pods of the F18 Growler:

AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver

Real-time situational awareness for tactical cueing of jammers/ onboard sensors

Northrop Grumman's ALQ-218 fully satisfies the unique requirement for a tactical jamming receiver system. In battle, the ALQ-218 tactical jamming receiver is the first system "on the scene" to detect the enemy. The ALQ-218 provides the initial verification for the correlation between the planned Electronic Order of Battle (EOB) and the actual "on the scene" EOB. The ALQ-218 enables aircrews and/or commanders to make quicker and more intelligent decisions to ensure the maximum protection of the friendly forces.

The ALQ-218 successfully meets the required probability of detection and response time necessary to provide situational awareness for reactive (surgical) jamming. High-powered jammer energy can be concentrated on specific threats and as a result of the jamming, the ALQ-218 follows the changing enemy radar tactics...

...Geolocation/Target-cueing Capability

The ALQ-218 utilizes a unique combination of short, medium and long baseline interferometer techniques with a patented passive ranging algorithm to provide geolocation of emitters for cueing jammers and other onboard sensors such as electro-optical/infrared sensors and radar.

AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver


Just as I expected, the F18 Growler has interferometry sensors to geolocate enemy radars and should be able to cue weapons on them, just like the Rafale does with SPECTRA. The difference is only, that every Rafale has this system integrated, while the Growler is the only version of the F18SH with such capabilities and only if the Growler light is available for us, we can get it. Just another option of the F18SH, that already is available through the Rafale F3+ and what explains why the Rafale costs more!

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
I don't think US is offering us Growler.....and even if they offer us Growler they will take away many important component from it.....its better we use our own growler(lca) and with some french and israeli help we can make it comparable to Growler...

But thanx for this information on Rafale....

 

[kingofkings]

^^^
I don't think US is offering us Growler.....

Dude I think they are also offering the F-18 G and they have even mentioned about their interest of offering F-35 ....

Boeing India Home: Boeing EA-18G Growler

 

[Archie]

I think MOD should recieve a nice big kick up its a$$

They should straight forward decided the winner based on IAF recomendation and not play any politics
even if contract is given to superhornet then also we should have no problem since boing can ensure fast induction and these jets will most likely be used against china , since our Mirage 2000 , Mig29smt and MKI can deal with Pakistan , and US is unlikely to impose sanction in time of an Indo Chinna war
when we look at the fact that PAF is interested in having a fleet of 120+ F16 , inspite of facing the brunt of American sanctions in 1990s , i dont think IAF should be worried about F/A18

Another Interested thing is if either Rafale or Super Hornet win's the contract , there is a high chance that Navy will also opt for the same aircraft , Unless US provides a good deal on F35C without the CISMOSA and BECA ,

so as to ensure commonality with IAF , since navy too is looking for 40-50 N mrca

 

[luckyyy]

Because medium class twin engine is not equal to heavy class twin engine! The heavy class Flankers will require more maintenance and more fuel compared to medium class fighters, especially compared to western fighters, because they have spares longer life and longer maintenance timeframes. The quality is simply very different and that adds much to the costs, which counters the commonality advantage of more Flankers. Besides reducing operational costs is not an important point in MMRCA!

the maintanence and flying hour cost of MKI is same as compare to any other twine engine in the MMRCA....
and if you take into account of total lify cycle cost , MKI is far cheaper then any twine engine in the compition , also the addition infrastructure and training burden the new platform will bring , that will also cost addition money...

even several IAF officials has already made this point on various time...

 

[Shastra]

US aerospace major Boeing is anticipating Indian defence orders worth $14 billion, with a company official saying its hands are "pretty full" with orders for fighters and choppers for the air force and reconnaissance planes for the navy.

Boeing has hands full with Indian defence deals of $14 billion - The Economic Times

 

[Shastra]

i never gets what's the logic buying a twine engine fighter again in MMRCA when IAF already operating SU-30MKI , i mean inplace buying another twine engine platform , why not just add more MKIs .....atleast it will significatly reduce the infrastructure and training burden that a new platform will bring...

good point...but relying on a single vendor might not be such a good idea

 

[kingdurgaking]

Not really, because we discussed if the USN has funded the EPE yet and this just proves once more that they have not, nor have interest in it! On the other hand it also confirms that MMRCA / IAF requires higher thrust for more flight performance and GE seems to understands that they have no other option than fund it alone, if the F18SH should fulfill the requirements.
But don't forget this:
IAF Rejects last minute offer for powerful engine from one of MMRCA contenders | idrw.org

The EPE engine is not available now and was not fielded in the trials, so it looks like an desperate attempt, but it will be interesting if MoD will intervene and rule out IAF and their requirements here. The ball is now in MoDs hand and "now" politics will play a role for sure!

How do you know that Boeing is the only one which offered last minute change??? you have any source for it??... secondly you have the proposal of boeing submitted to MoD?? how do you know EPE is not offered in the first case??

There could be a chance that EPE might be offered right?? when RFP was studied Boeing would have understood the requirement and would have proposed EPE in the first case..... this is my assumption may be it is true...

As per the report it clearly states EPE is the base line offer for Indian MMRCA... which i guess it was offered from day one ... and the idea of developing EPE seems to be there and it is not a new idea that sprung up when the thrust doesnt seems enough .....

Yeah may be EPE was not in the test craft... but it applies the same for all manufactures... No AESA in all the test crafts except US manufactures...

 

[dbc]

^^^
I don't think US is offering us Growler.....and even if they offer us Growler they will take away many important component from it.....its better we use our own growler(lca) and with some french and israeli help we can make it comparable to Growler...

But thanx for this information on Rafale....

No you don't need Growler ...

The F/A-18 E/F can geo locate this capability is not unique to SPECTRA. The F/A-18 E/F can single ship geo locate emitters, this means a single aircraft can geo locate emitters but when combined with a minimum of three F/A-18 E/F (multi ship geo locate ) it is capable of multilateration. This turns a formation of F/A-18 E/F into a VERA in the air capable of geo locating the weakest emitter even when this weak emitter is next to a strong emitter. LPI detection and geo location is possible with multi ship geo location.

Multilateration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dbc]

How do you know that Boeing is the only one which offered last minute change??? you have any source for it??... secondly you have the proposal of boeing submitted to MoD?? how do you know EPE is not offered in the first case??

There could be a chance that EPE might be offered right?? when RFP was studied Boeing would have understood the requirement and would have proposed EPE in the first case..... this is my assumption may be it is true...

As per the report it clearly states EPE is the base line offer for Indian MMRCA... which i guess it was offered from day one ... and the idea of developing EPE seems to be there and it is not a new idea that sprung up when the thrust doesnt seems enough .....

Yeah may be EPE was not in the test craft... but it applies the same for all manufactures... No AESA in all the test crafts except US manufactures...

EPE was part of the initial proposal from Boeing.

Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal to win the MMRCA contract.

Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer

 

[Dash]

How do you know that Boeing is the only one which offered last minute change??? you have any source for it??... secondly you have the proposal of boeing submitted to MoD?? how do you know EPE is not offered in the first case??

There could be a chance that EPE might be offered right?? when RFP was studied Boeing would have understood the requirement and would have proposed EPE in the first case..... this is my assumption may be it is true...

As per the report it clearly states EPE is the base line offer for Indian MMRCA... which i guess it was offered from day one ... and the idea of developing EPE seems to be there and it is not a new idea that sprung up when the thrust doesnt seems enough .....

Yeah may be EPE was not in the test craft... but it applies the same for all manufactures... No AESA in all the test crafts except US manufactures...

Dont want to bulldoze your conversation with Sancho. But EPE or EDE will depend on what IAF will need, whether they offer or not.

We dont even know for sure if EPE or EDE is being taken/given for LCA MK2.