Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[BATMAN]

Welcome to the Indian Procurement Methodology... "we might get it someday"...

 

[Energon]

^^Nitesh, How do you relate this 'the hindu' invitation news to Indian buying fighter jets?

The EADS offer to induct India into the Eurofighter consortium is contingent upon their winning the MRCA bid for the 126 aircrafts.

 

[BATMAN]

The EADS offer to induct India into the Eurofighter consortium is contingent upon their winning the MRCA bid for the 126 aircrafts.

EADS must be out of their mind selling 126 Typhoons and weaopns for 10billion USD
I think in such circumstances Indians should not waist a moment and buy Typhoons without with or without other perks.

 

[nitesh]

^^Nitesh, How do you relate this 'the hindu' invitation news to Indian buying fighter jets?

I am trying to point out the salesmanship going for getting this deal. And the point is only Boeing and Europenas are making such noises. French Russians, Lockheed Martin and Saab have either given up or just waiting for the right time to open there cards.

 

[Keysersoze]

EADS must be out of their mind selling 126 Typhoons and weaopns for 10billion USD
I think in such circumstances Indians should not waist a moment and buy Typhoons without with or without other perks.

Dude I doubt thats the price they would get that number of planes for. No one else seems to have realised that.

 

[nitesh]

EADS must be out of their mind selling 126 Typhoons and weaopns for 10billion USD
I think in such circumstances Indians should not waist a moment and buy Typhoons without with or without other perks.

The RFP states that only 18 planes should be delivered in flyaway condition, rest all to be manufactured in India. So the cost of planes will come down drastically. The only point here is how much T0T they or for the matter any other vendor is ready to offer.

 

[BATMAN]

The RFP states that only 18 planes should be delivered in flyaway condition, rest all to be manufactured in India. So the cost of planes will come down drastically. The only point here is how much T0T they or for the matter any other vendor is ready to offer.

In that case, you have to wait for another 6-8 years till the remaining 108 are produced.
If I remember correctly recently, Saudis bought 72 typhoons for 20 billion and by that calculation your fly away 18 should cost 5billion and you are saying that 108 typhoons can be built in India with only 5 billion!
In your opinion what will make such big difference in cost of production?

 

[Neo]

In that case, you have to wait for another 6-8 years till the remaining 108 are produced.
If I remember correctly recently, Saudis bought 72 typhoons for 20 billion and by that calculation your fly away 18 should cost 5billion and you are saying that 108 typhoons can be built in India with only 5 billion!
In your opinion what will make such big difference in cost of production?

Batman,

Saudi $20+ billion deal includes full maintenance and upgrades by EADS, purchase of hardware, i.e. armed jets is worth $8-9 billion only.
Unlik KSA India has the infrastructure to maintain the Typhoon, the deal would be much cheaper.

 

[Khalsa]

EADS May Move Airbus Production To India

The European aircraft consortium, EADS, has said that it may start producing in India so as to be closer to its customers here. The Company Chairman, Mr Louis Gallois, told newspersons at the ongoing Berlin airshow that if EADS wanted to sell in India, it would also have to look at producing here.

The statement comes in the wake of Airbus maker, EADS participating in two ongoing Indian defence procurement programmes — the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft being acquired by the Indian Air Force and 150 helicopters for the Indian Army.

The terms of both contracts specify that the eventual winner will be allowed to ship the first batch of aircraft from the supplier’s manufacturing base, but will eventually have to shift the manufacturing capability to India.

Officials feel that any decision to move production to India could be beneficial to the European consortium. “Currently, most of EADS production is in the Euro zone, while payments are generally made in dollars, which is not very favourable due to the exchange rate fluctuations these days. Besides, if the company wins any of the orders in India, it can claim that it is already sourcing from here and seek adjustments against the offset clause that is mandatory in Government contracts,” an official said.
Call for tie-up

EADS is offering the Typhoon aircraft to the Indian Air Force and AS 550 C3 Fennec helicopter to the Indian Army. The European consortium has also invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter programme under which the Typhoon aircraft is being produced.

Meanwhile, the Defence Minister, Mr A.K. Antony, has said that companies planning to sell major defence products to India must be prepared to part with technology.

Speaking to newspersons at the airshow, Mr Antony said India would like to have fruitful defence cooperation with countries which are prepared to transfer technology and are interested in co-designing, co-development and co-production of defence products.

 

[nitesh]

In that case, you have to wait for another 6-8 years till the remaining 108 are produced.
If I remember correctly recently, Saudis bought 72 typhoons for 20 billion and by that calculation your fly away 18 should cost 5billion and you are saying that 108 typhoons can be built in India with only 5 billion!
In your opinion what will make such big difference in cost of production?

You see that europeans are following trenaches model for typhoon. Like treancahe 1, treanche 2 the saudi deal include upgrade of planes also to latest versions, maintenance of the planes etc. While in India scenario, the production will be done in India. In this way the major cost for companies is giving the techs they developed. Because production and maintenance will be taken care by India. They will benefit from getting JVs etc so that they can move there production to cheap destination like India.

 

[BATMAN]

You see that europeans are following trenaches model for typhoon. Like treancahe 1, treanche 2 the saudi deal include upgrade of planes also to latest versions, maintenance of the planes etc.

i doubt that maintenece is included in the cost of Saudi deal. Any way it means Saudi order was bigger than indian and they did not made as much fuss of technology transfer.
what ever model of sale EADS adopt, all defence circles will definately question if indians get 126 jets at the cost of 10billion.

While in India scenario, the production will be done in India. In this way the major cost for companies is giving the techs they developed. Because production and maintenance will be taken care by India. They will benefit from getting JVs etc so that they can move there production to cheap destination like India.

EADS will not be benifited if production is moved to india, it will only benifit india in developing its own delta wing, later.
My question is what makes indian production costs so less that price comes down to more than half?

 

[nitesh]

i doubt that maintenece is included in the cost of Saudi deal. Any way it means Saudi order was bigger than indian and they did not made as much fuss of technology transfer.
what ever model of sale EADS adopt, all defence circles will definately question if indians get 126 jets at the cost of 10billion.

The saudi deal is complete life cycle cost. And if they dont make a fuss about ToT its problem of them, for asking the ToT you need to have some infrastructure in place which they dont have. So there is no point in asking about it. Well EADS is free to not bid for MRCA if they dont want to give the planes in the cost India has asked for, but going by media reports they seem to be quite interested.

EADS will not be benifited if production is moved to india, it will only benifit india in developing its own delta wing, later.
My question is what makes indian production costs so less that price comes down to more than half?

How it will help india in developing delta wing? LCA has delta wings.

Simply by going the salary comparison. Indian salaries are definitely very less as compared to europeans. And dear whenever you buy something in bulk the dealer will reduce its margin to keep the customer happy about the cost. Its simple

 

[Khalsa]

Boeing Expects IAF M-MRCA Contract Decision By 2010

Indian government will decide on its plan to buy 126 new fighter jets for its air force "no sooner" than 2010, Boeing Co.'s defense chief Jim Albaugh said today. Boeing, Lockheed Martin Corp., Saab AB, MIG Corp., Dassault Aviation SA and European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., the parent of Airbus SAS, submitted bids to the government on April 28 for the contract. The order may be worth $11 billion, the biggest for combat planes in 15 years in India.

Asia, which contributes about $2 billion a year in defense sales for Chicago-based Boeing, will account for 50 percent of international sales at the defense unit in five to 10 years, the company said. India is spending more to buy military aircraft, helicopters and weapons as neighboring Pakistan buys aircraft from the U.S. and China develops its own fighter planes. International sales accounted for 7 percent of total revenue at the defense unit five years ago, and now accounts for about 13 percent, Albaugh said.

The company is protesting a U.S. Air Force award of a $35 billion aerial-refueling tanker program to Northrop Grumman Corp. and the parent of Airbus SAS, saying that changes made midstream in the contest unfairly favored its European rival. The jury is "still out" on the tanker decision, Albaugh told reporters in Singapore today. "There is going to be plenty of opportunities to sell 767 tankers in the event that the protest we have is sustained and there is a re competition and we're fortunate enough to win that re competition," he said.

Boeing fell 0.02 percent to $82.11 in New York Stock Exchange trading yesterday. The shares have declined 6.1 percent this year.

 

[BATMAN]

Boeing Expects IAF M-MRCA Contract Decision By 2010

This was expected and but indians refused to believe. they kept spreading new time frames on every forum and discussion, just to keep the bidders hanging in stimulate a competition of best offer.
will some one guess how many years now indians started spreading the news?

 

[BATMAN]

The saudi deal is complete life cycle cost.

Are you saying that they have already paid for the future maintenances?

And if they don't make a fuss about ToT its problem of them, for asking the ToT you need to have some infrastructure in place which they dont have. So there is no point in asking about it.

Saudis have the infrastructure or not but first it has to be seen, is it worth having? untill unless it is a matter of national prestige! As I suppose is the case always with indians.

Well EADS is free to not bid for MRCA if they dont want to give the planes in the cost India has asked for, but going by media reports they seem to be quite interested.

I don't think so, EADS is least interested, infect the consortium countries are looking at each other that who will take the lead and eventually bear the cost of bidding.
I think more important is indian attitude, demands and interests.
What is clear is that india need an ally who can go hand in hand with india in war senario with Pakistan and compliment indian military all round within this 10billion. The only natural ally pop up is US.

How it will help india in developing delta wing? LCA has delta wings.

LCA has delta wings does not means that they have correct design. Infect aerodynamics of LCA has been a big area of concern for its developers. Recently they have worked out a lot on the frame to reduce drag and add maneuverability to mig21 level but failed miserably.
This is one of the biggest reasons of dely, 'the national prestige' other wise principally its US, in bold.
india need some one who can help them in LCA at the same time sell them top of the line fighters with t.o.t and a partnership for new fighter programme.
READ

Simply by going the salary comparison. Indian salaries are definitely very less as compared to europeans. And dear whenever you buy something in bulk the dealer will reduce its margin to keep the customer happy about the cost. Its simple

Even if indians decided to work free of cost they cannot bring the price so down that they are able to fly away with 126 typhoon with 10billion.
Typhoon is way too expensive for nations like india, See Saudis came with money and got what they wished.