Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[FSLN]

Growlers are good.. But US will not be ready....

You could bargain for some of the Super Hornets to be Growler wired from the factory....

 

[sancho]

I am not able to find any such details for EJ .. but it is one of the most modern like FADEC and has a high growth potential.. For Snecma M88-3 is still a dream...

History

Although the M88 engine cycle is similar to that of the Eurojet EJ200, it is smaller and lower in thrust. Other differences are that the M88 has fan variable camber inlet guide vanes, the HP compressor has a 6th stage and the exhaust nozzle is of the ejector type. Like its contemporaries, it features state of the art technologies such as single-crystal high-pressure turbine blades, powder metallurgy discs and FADEC.

http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?title=Snecma_M88


Btw, the M88-3 development started in 2000 and prototypes are ready and even made tests, but the French don't need it and that's why they didn't funded it. If we go for a Kaveri - Snecma development, it's core is likely to be used as the base.

For Ground attack.... we can assume it has already got a capability equal to Rafael.. if IAF found this feature not available it would have kissed good bye while scrutinizing the features saying it did not fit there requirement...so far IAF has not rejected any Fighter so we can assume it has got the capability during the trials...

Not really, the EF still has only very limited A2G capabilities, lacks A2G missiles completelly, can carry the targeting pod only by reducing one fuel tank, which of course limits the range and the integration of further weapons is still running slow.
Rafale on the other hand offers PGMs, anti ship and cruise missiles and now is even nuclear capable with the ASMP missile (although I doubt we will get it). It offers more weapon stations, has more payload and range and an excellent EWS, which makes it the close 2nd to the Super Hornet, but the EF is by far not comparabel in this field!

If Production line of RAFAEL is empty it shows the success of there product.. what will you prefer if you are a business owner? a product which is successfully running across many companies/prospect customers.. or a product deployed in only one company and hoping for prospect customers?? I guess any owner will logically choose the former ... due to many reasons...

What do you prefer? A fighter where the owners has not the money to fund integration of important weapons, techs and upgrades, as well are reducing their initial orders. Or do you prefer a fighter where the production line are runing slow, but orders are fully according plans and recently even increased + is still cheaper per unit!

 

[kingdurgaking]

You could bargain for some of the Super Hornets to be Growler wired from the factory....

We can just bargain bro.... dont know what will be the outcome.. US does not have such trustworthy relation with India..

 

[kingdurgaking]

http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?title=Snecma_M88
Btw, the M88-3 development started in 2000 and prototypes are ready and even made tests, but the French don't need it and that's why they didn't funded it. If we go for a Kaveri - Snecma development, it's core is likely to be used as the base.

Not really, the EF still has only very limited A2G capabilities, lacks A2G missiles completelly, can carry the targeting pod only by reducing one fuel tank, which of course limits the range and the integration of further weapons is still running slow.
Rafale on the other hand offers PGMs, anti ship and cruise missiles and now is even nuclear capable with the ASMP missile (although I doubt we will get it). It offers more weapon stations, has more payload and range and an excellent EWS, which makes it the close 2nd to the Super Hornet, but the EF is by far not comparabel in this field!

What do you prefer? A fighter where the owners has not the money to fund integration of important weapons, techs and upgrades, as well are reducing their initial orders. Or do you prefer a fighter where the production line are runing slow, but orders are fully according plans and recently even increased + is still cheaper per unit!

If M88-3 prototype is ready which is supposed to have good trust.. and French doesnt need it shows that they wanted to transfer that liability to the buyers.. where as it is not the case EJ.. This liability will add directly to our assets because Rafael hasnt got prominent Orders then..
And i am sure M88-3 will not be part of the offer.. where they will demand more money for integration and testing as they knew India will demand so..

As i am saying EF hasnt got the required capability it will be rejected.. and for sure EF is not rejected which shows the confidence on what they posses... As for EW Typhoon was proposed with DASS which is also looks very competitive.. Can you compare the details of the both?... And EF has given impressive Ground attack capabilities in Wiki.. Not sure what was in the offer to MMRCA.. which will tell you how good EF or Rafael is... And for Sea capabilities there is a separate tender for Navy ... and Su will be there.. I dont think IAF has given any request for sea capbilities

And you have any news article which says owners are not having funds for integrating weapons??.. So you mean to say France has got huge funds for there fighter program for future upgrades .. when 4 countries are not having funds how come a single country do??

As a customer i will prefer a Fighter which should suite my requirement and should be a good product and the liability in the future upgrade should not fall on my head... so what will you choose? entire Liability on your head kya?... see things on business terms.. As i see Rafael has not got much future.. not even a single prominent export customer. so chance of it going to China is more which is more dangerous than PAF getting trained on EF... Where as EF is not so.. they have good customers and good orders in the pocket.. with so much countries Future upgrades will be equally shared.. and they have ban on China

See long term goal.. With EADS we get Civil aviation.. what do Rafael provides?? The consortium will setup a development center in India for future upgrade what about Rafael only ToT... and EU has got more political strategy compared with France alone... in every angel Typhoon looks good... And i want Rafael to win if not Typhoon... but not F18.. But as we see everything goes F18 way

 

[luckyyy]

How?
Don't you guys already claim that MKI is best, after F-22.
What capabilities does SH give IAF, that you don't already have with MKI?

probably mmrca aircrafts will be asign the role of air defence agenist the cruse misslies.....

during war time airforce need to delpoly around 50 of such aircrafts in air all the time to pick , track and target the incoming hostile missiles...

MKI drink lot of fuel , it's high on maintanence and didn't have the AESA radar, thesefore think the F-18 is the most suitable to fit in this role..

 

[KS]

Flash News:

In the tribute ad for the IAF on its 78 th anniversary broadcasted on CNN-IBN alond with the Bisons,MKIs,M2Ks a 2 second flypast of the EFT was there.

Is there any indications of the decisions to come.?

 

[soaringphnx]

As i am saying EF hasnt got the required capability it will be rejected.. and for sure EF is not rejected which shows the confidence on what they posses...

So far, no aircraft has been disqualified or rejected from the competition.

And EF has given impressive Ground attack capabilities in Wiki.. Not sure what was in the offer to MMRCA..

Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia which anyone can edit. For the same reason, wikipedia is not always the most reliable source of information about some topics (such as this).

And for Sea capabilities there is a separate tender for Navy ... and Su will be there.. I dont think IAF has given any request for sea capbilities

True, the Indian Air Force did not ask for it specifically in the tender, but it cannot nevertheless be ruled out. The Navy's future aircraft carriers will need aircraft and there is a separate tender for it. But there are huge advantages in logistics, training, cost of induction and maintenance if the same aircraft is operated by both the air force and the navy and it will undoubtedly be considered in the competition. So here, the Eurofighter is at a disadvantage whereas the rafale and the Super Hornet are at an advantage.

And you have any news article which says owners are not having funds for integrating weapons??..

Search the internet (or go through this thread) and you will find that there are tons of such articles. In fact BENNY had posted an article just a few days ago which stated that the Typhoon will only have a PESA radar.

So you mean to say France has got huge funds for there fighter program for future upgrades .. when 4 countries are not having funds how come a single country do??

As i see Rafael has not got much future.. not even a single prominent export customer.

France is undoubtedly having difficulties in funding the Rafale, but The French Air Force and Navy have already committed to the Rafale. In fact, the Rafale was developed with the aim to replace every single fighter aircraft in the inventory of the French Armed Forces (a fighter fit for any role). So there will surely be further development. France is looking to export the Rafale to help fund it's further development (and of course make some money).

On the other hand, the Eurofighter Typhoon was designed as an air superiority fighter. It was only later that ground attack capability was included (though it comes no where close to the Rafale). The severe limitations of the Typhoon in ground attack capability was already mentioned in sufficient detail by sancho in his post.

All 4 nations of the Eurofighter Consortium are members of the F-35 program as well and so all their resources and money is not directed towards the development of the Typhoon. These countries feel that it is better to go for the F-35 and are preparing to induct as much of it as they can. In fact, these countries are now reducing their initial orders and chances for further development are low.

As a customer i will prefer a Fighter which should suite my requirement and should be a good product and the liability in the future upgrade should not fall on my head... so what will you choose? entire Liability on your head kya?... see things on business terms..

When looking from the "business" point of view, the Eurofighter does not look attractive at all. It doesn't suite all the requirements (poor ground attack, lack of AESA), it does not seem to have much of a future (member nations unwilling to fund further development, withdrawing their initial orders) amd is the least financially viable (most expensive) despite having the worst ground attack ability, no AESA, no naval version, no commonality with any fighters (current or planned) in the Indian inventory).

The Rafale on the other hand has the full support of the French navy and Air Force, so it definitely has a future. It suits all the requirements perfectly and is economically viable. It is the second most expensive, but we can save costs in induction & training (commonality with existing Mirages), maintenance & production costs (Kaveri engine option) and if it is chosen for our future aircraft carriers.

so chance of it going to China is more which is more dangerous than PAF getting trained on EF... Where as EF is not so.. they have good customers and good orders in the pocket.. with so much countries Future upgrades will be equally shared.. and they have ban on China

The Chinese have Su-30MKMs which aren't too different from our Su-30MKIs, but that didn't stop us from acquiring them. the Russians are always trying to sell military equipment to China, yet Russia has been for all these years our foremost arms supplier.

See long term goal.. With EADS we get Civil aviation.. what do Rafael provides?? The consortium will setup a development center in India for future upgrade what about Rafael only ToT...

India will not be an equal member in the consortium. Even the French have stated they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship with India, though they have not indicated how.

in every angel Typhoon looks good...

mention 1 angle.

 

[soaringphnx]

 

[kingdurgaking]

True, the Indian Air Force did not ask for it specifically in the tender, but it cannot nevertheless be ruled out. The Navy's future aircraft carriers will need aircraft and there is a separate tender for it. But there are huge advantages in logistics, training, cost of induction and maintenance if the same aircraft is operated by both the air force and the navy and it will undoubtedly be considered in the competition. So here, the Eurofighter is at a disadvantage whereas the rafale and the Super Hornet are at an advantage.

IAF and Navy are having different budget and different requirement.. You cant have the same version of IAF to navy ... there will be different systems.. We already have different systems in place .. and it is not logical for that.. Even USAF or Russia do have different systems.. Your view on this cant be justified on the commonality.. So Rafale though serves both it is of Poor built and no nation is hardly interested in it.. That is the fact... Where as EF was successful and was able to sell to there clients..

Search the internet (or go through this thread) and you will find that there are tons of such articles. In fact BENNY had posted an article just a few days ago which stated that the Typhoon will only have a PESA radar.

If You are BENNY can post the response of EADS to the RFI which states Typhoon will give only PESA to the IAF as i am not sure how to search . If Response to RFI states only PESA we will kiss good bye the to EF.... and will welcome Rafael... And FYI EF already flown with AESA and they are working on enhancements..

France is undoubtedly having difficulties in funding the Rafale, but The French Air Force and Navy have already committed to the Rafale. In fact, the Rafale was developed with the aim to replace every single fighter aircraft in the inventory of the French Armed Forces (a fighter fit for any role). So there will surely be further development. France is looking to export the Rafale to help fund it's further development (and of course make some money).

On the other hand, the Eurofighter Typhoon was designed as an air superiority fighter. It was only later that ground attack capability was included (though it comes no where close to the Rafale). The severe limitations of the Typhoon in ground attack capability was already mentioned in sufficient detail by sancho in his post.

France itself is having huge difficulty for sure ... It is desperate to sell its Bird to some one to save its industry.. So far it was not successful.. It is a big flaw on there part now that they cant support any further enhancement and are look for India and they have decided to lift ban on China which is a bad move and Rafael will sell the technology to them though not the Fighter altogether ... which is not the case with EF they can see light at the end of there tunnel and you can see the prospect customers and EU will never sell anything to China as of now... agreed EF has started with Air superiority but soon EU understood when dealing with Singapore where it lost to F18 from where they understood that A2G is important and they have modified it.. Infact in T3 of EF will have the best features and As far as my knowledge is concerned T3(Tranche3) is offered in MMRCA

All 4 nations of the Eurofighter Consortium are members of the F-35 program as well and so all their resources and money is not directed towards the development of the Typhoon. These countries feel that it is better to go for the F-35 and are preparing to induct as much of it as they can. In fact, these countries are now reducing their initial orders and chances for further development are low.

F-35 was there in Plan and EF is supposed to be there backbone and they wont drop EF at any cost... do you have any link stating that they will drop EF and scrap EF altogether and will go to F35 for good??

When looking from the "business" point of view, the Eurofighter does not look attractive at all. It doesn't suite all the requirements (poor ground attack, lack of AESA), it does not seem to have much of a future (member nations unwilling to fund further development, withdrawing their initial orders) amd is the least financially viable (most expensive) despite having the worst ground attack ability, no AESA, no naval version, no commonality with any fighters (current or planned) in the Indian inventory).

As i said EADS is a more attractive option in all angels.. We can get hands on civil aviation which is very important... and secondly they have decided to make india as partners.. though it wont be active but a small amount of R&D will surely land in India .. I can provide link on this and it was a hot topic from EADS bid.. can you gurantee that Rafale will give such option.. All they want is money and no work will be transferred ... because of which UAE is about to kiss good bye for them... you can look into the poor state of Rafael..

The Rafale on the other hand has the full support of the French navy and Air Force, so it definitely has a future. It suits all the requirements perfectly and is economically viable. It is the second most expensive, but we can save costs in induction & training (commonality with existing Mirages), maintenance & production costs (Kaveri engine option) and if it is chosen for our future aircraft carriers.

So is the case with EU they have there full support and there is a confirmed order of 500+ and some of the customers are in the edge of shortlisting.. so any such prospect for Rafael.. We are already having Jaguars which is a commonality from EU...

The Chinese have Su-30MKMs which aren't too different from our Su-30MKIs, but that didn't stop us from acquiring them. the Russians are always trying to sell military equipment to China, yet Russia has been for all these years our foremost arms supplier.

Buddy get your facts corrected on SU MKI.. MKI is the most advanced fighters of its class.. and Chinese have MKK not MKM... Russia has now understood what to trade and what not to with China for avoiding further embarrassment.. but France is not so.. we can see its eager in selling things to China while other EU are Vehemently opposed.. it is better not to give anything than give something to our adversaries..

India will not be an equal member in the consortium. Even the French have stated they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship with India, though they have not indicated how.

Yes India will not be equal.. but India will be asked to give some contribution.. so something is better than nothing.. We are going as buyer seller but EADS has decided to take as 5th partner..


In addition to this i am reiterating a simple logic on buying a product and looking at long term perspective like upgrades maintenance etc..

we both are project managers for a product(same flavour different company)... I have got only 2 clients.. and you have got 10 clients... Now an upgrade has to be created to follow some government norms... so both of us have to deliver it.... since i have 2 clients... so i will end up charging them more for the upgrade or i will give a less capable upgrade to meet the cost... While you have sufficient clients to charge and you will give you a good quality upgrade for a good cost.. so who is the beneficiary here?? so where does India stand here?

This is my main concern on Rafael when we compare it with EF... as a whole i am not Rafael hatter...
Feel free to comment on my views...

 

[FSLN]

MKI is the most advanced fighters of its class.. :

thats debatable...

 

[kingdurgaking]

thats debatable...

hmmm yes debatable for you.... and no for us... we are convinced it is the best of SU-30 and equal or little less to SU-35

 

[redpearl75]

thats debatable...

You can say that but can't prove, as Sukhoi and Russian authorities itself clami MKI to be the best Su30 around the globe... Americans claimed MKI to be the second best jet to their Raptors and then under developement F35 in 2004 after the joint exercise... MKI has come a long way in terms of technology upgradation and airframe development.... It shares the same engine, same airframe - canards, same technology... The only thing that's better in the Su 35 is it's radar which again in going to get incorporated in all the MKIs in IAF's inventory.... Su 35 is a variant of MKI and it's a lot similar to the MKI... Su 35 is a different class of fighter as it has only one pilot seating whereas MKI has 2 to enhance it's capabilities.... IAF doesn't keep MKI for intercepting role, rather Fulcrums have always been in that catagory, MKI is kept for Deep penetration, Heavy strike, and be a second line interceptor... For the time being you can say that IAF has in mind to use MKIs as an interceptor but not for long as Fulcrums are getting upgraded to the SMT standards with new radars, avionics, engines and cockpit instrumentation.... I won't say that MKI is better than Su 35 but would rather say that both are of different classes and have different roles to play, the only thing I would like to comment here is thet there is nothing that Su 35 can do and MKI can't and same goes the opposite way.... It's the motive not the capacity of these jets that differentiates them......

 

[rockstarIN]

Just add GRIPEN and AMEN...

Can't we make LCA to Gripen standard? since both r using the same engine, of course it will take time but

 

[Big Bang]

Can't we make LCA to Gripen standard? since both r using the same engine, of course it will take time but

LCA Mk2 version has been focused Upon to better the Aircraft To the standards as that of Grippen

 

[redpearl75]