Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[C130]

No, it doesn't comply to several requirements, be it flight performance, IRST, ToT of critical techs..., it is cheap because it is far less capable and that's why Boeing offered the growth options at the end, but if India funds them, the cost would be far higher too and that with limited tech transfer.
The F16 was the better US offer, since it's flight performace, the IRST, the more capable EW of the Block 60 as well as the costs would had made it preferable. On the other side, the same weapon pack and industrial limitations, the fact that PAF knows the fighter and could had evaluated the UAE versions, made it a no go. Sad, the F16IN would had formed a great hi lo combo with the MKI, just in operational terms.
M-MRCA mainly was a test how serious the US is with opening up to India and providing proper arms and techs. It might be at a better level compared to what you give Pakistan, but far below to what we have on the table from Europeans, Russians or Israelis. And as long as the US laws restricts weapons, capabilities and industrial advantages to India, the US vendors won't win large tenders.



Well, the decision to take the L1 to prefered negotiations in 2012 was the right one from our side, but we couldn't expect that Dassault would take so long to comply to the requirements and would start the HAL issue. Back then the biggest concern for delays were cost negotiations.
M-MRCA is not a stop gap fighter! That's a common misunderstanding, because the initial idea of the MRCA tender was to get a fast to induct fighter to counter LCA delays.But with the M2K production running out and the possibility to see what the US actually are ready to offer, the new tender had far different aims. Advanced capabilities, future potential and a high priority on industrial benefits were now more important than cost-effectivity or that the winner was fast to induct. That's why the 2 most costly fighters, that however offered the most capability and industrial advantages were prefered.
It's also a common myth, that having 5th gen fighters means, that they will be used in any mission all the time. Apart from the US, that doesn't care about getting bankrupt, all nations will use 4.5th gen fighters for the bulk of the operations. Even China is mainly inducting J10 and J11 versions for the same aim and that's where M-MRCA has it's importance for IAF and where LCA simply is no alternative. It was a mistake to go for a light class fighter in the first place, but we thought we could counter the lack of capability with large numbers. The delays now rules large numbers out and that makes the addition of capability to the fleet important again.

Flight Performance- Rafale is indeed more agile and has greater range, but F-18 SH isn't that terrible really considering. and with conformal fuel tanks and EWP should get a lot more range.

IRST-believe we are getting IRST for the the F-18 SH and teen series in general
Navy Approves Production of F/A-18 Infrared Tracking Pod | Defense: Aviation International News
ToT-not sure how they offered in the first place, and if they would offer more if they had a second go
EW-EA-18 growler with the Next Generation Jammer would be formidable

I'm still rooting for Rafale, but if India could get a better deal then why not..

 

[halloweene]

gud news.. whats your views now after reading sancho's take on EF 's suitability for India now as MMRCA itself is long delayed... You see or hear any murmurs for signing by Mar 15?

First of all, according to Scorpion (and noone can qualify him of a typhoon basher), will ewist in export and domestic versions (+ later UK version). IOC scheduled in 2021.
Brimstone is definitely a nice weapon, but rather expensive in its latest iterations. Atm AdA is leading a "crash program" for Irak for a low cllateral damage weapon. No idea what it is.
Things we bloggers and journalists can not now but are very important. Like the flight domain to delivery armament, mission profiles, acquisition time for ground assets etc.
For example : Typhoon will be able to deliver 2 Storm Shadow missiles. Ok. At which distance? Altitude? Range?
Btw some little articles are starting to show up about F4 standard. But very evasive.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

First of all, according to Scorpion (and noone can qualify him of a typhoon basher), will ewist in export and domestic versions (+ later UK version). IOC scheduled in 2021.
Brimstone is definitely a nice weapon, but rather expensive in its latest iterations. Atm AdA is leading a "crash program" for Irak for a low cllateral damage weapon. No idea what it is.
Things we bloggers and journalists can not now but are very important. Like the flight domain to delivery armament, mission profiles, acquisition time for ground assets etc.
For example : Typhoon will be able to deliver 2 Storm Shadow missiles. Ok. At which distance? Altitude? Range?
Btw some little articles are starting to show up about F4 standard. But very evasive.

F4 standard.. now thats even nicer.. Any chance of understanding what could be potentially India evolutionary standard or program? its pertinent as if the French and Indian standards are too far apart then economies of scale wont work thereby meaning a more costly, time consuming and resource intensive upgrade programs.

Also hearing some rumours of M88 total TOT blueprint getting shared.. murmur increased post abandonment of domestic engine development (kaveri) program. But no concrete word..

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'm still rooting for Rafale, but if India could get a better deal then why not..

See this is where things get murky. What does one define the "best deal" as?Ask the Indian aerospace industry they will say one thing, they might even say the Gripen (talking hypothetically here) but for sure the IAF would say the Rafale because the talks with Dassualt are the most advanced and the deal is close to completion. They know the Rafale is an incredible bird and within touching distance for them. They have no appetite to wait another 2-3 years whilst the GoI talks to someone else be it the EFT consortium or Boeing.

And isn't it obvious that as time passes the competitors of the Rafale will be moving forward and showcasing capabilities? Let's not forget that that is IRRELEVANT. At the time the trails were conducted the F-18 SH failed to meet certain technical criteria set by the IAF and the EFT was found to bee more expensive than the Rafale. The Rafale is the ONLY possible option, this revisionism isn't going to help the IAF and that, surely, is the number 1 priority here?

Oh and it's not like Dassualt is going to stand still, the Rafale too well be upgraded and with India on board this will be more more aggressive.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Also hearing some rumours of M88 total TOT blueprint getting shared.. murmur increased post abandonment of domestic engine development (kaveri) program. But no concrete word..

Not impossible but you did post a valid point though

if kaveri is indeed scrapped then a new aero program from GTRE if indeed happens then they would have role from Scenema in it's development

but how much??

time would tell

we are not buying rafale for granted

CHEERS

 

[sancho]

ToT-not sure how they offered in the first place, and if they would offer more if they had a second go

ToT is not about more or less, the requirement was 50% and that can be done by providing basic ToT for the production of airfame parts for example, or critical parts like radar, engine EW and the share of these critical techs is restricted for US products.

EW-EA-18 growler with the Next Generation Jammer would be formidable

Which is not available for India, not even the Growler light that Boeing wanted to offer to non NATO export countries like Brazil or India, was ever approved by the US government.

I'm still rooting for Rafale, but if India could get a better deal then why not..

That's exactly my point, just that I think the only other choice that can offer a better deal, is the EF consortium, because they are the only other choice that can cover most of the operational requirements and even a better industrial offer, but so far they doesn't seem to have made an offer that we can't reject.

See this is where things get murky. What does one define the "best deal" as?Ask the Indian aerospace industry they will say one thing, they might even say the Gripen (talking hypothetically here) but for sure the IAF would say the Rafale...

And that's because none of them is important in the final decision making, but MoD is the only interesting part now. They have to consider all sides and not only one.

And isn't it obvious that as time passes the competitors of the Rafale will be moving forward and showcasing capabilities? Let's not forget that that is IRRELEVANT.

No it's not, because the others are catching up because they actually are working on capability changers, while Rafale is pretty much stuck for the last few years to an extend and got even worse than during the trials. That's why things are looking different now too. You see EF catching up with PW4 and Stormshadow, while even overtaking with Meteor and Brimstone. The F18 is developing CFTs and weaponpods, which doesn't make it more compliant to the RFP requirements, but "IF" they would be available for India now, they care clear game changers in terms of RCS reductions.
At the same time, what happened for the Rafale since 2012 when the first F3+ rolled out?

- No IRST anymore (result is, that we have to fund the production)
- Damocles XF cancelled (result is, that we have to fund the Litening integration or take the Talios which no other fighter in the fleet can use)
- no low collateral damage weapon as planned (which limits Rafale to 500lb LGBs or more costly AASMs and the IAF learned in Kargil how important precision weapons in smaller size and lower costs are in CAS roles)
- no AASM 1000 as planned (result is, that we most likely have to fund the integration of SPICE 2000 again)
- no addition of AASM 125 to improve at least SEAD capability (result is, that we may have to fully integrate it, or to fund the integration of a longer range SEAD weapon that is more suitable for our environment)
- Meteor only from 2018 onwards (which however is the least problem, because of the delayed delivery of M-MRCAs)

So we can't just say, Rafale is a great fighter today and close our eyes for the problems it does have. Any problem we have to solve now, comes with additional costs, that are not even shared costs since we now have an Indian upgrade path and a French one.
And as I told you before, the EF offers actually the advantage of not talking to the industry now, but talking to the governments and getting fast induction deals possibly even at lower costs, because most of them are cash-strapped and would love to delay some of their orders, just as French government, just that the EF partners can supply more fighters at once. That's the same reason why I'm saying that our MoD has to talk to German and Spains MoD to get A400s at lower costs, because they can't afford them at the moment and we have to take advantage of such situations.
There are opportunities the an EF deal currently can offer us, that can turn the deal as more beneficial, even if it's currently not as good as the Rafale and that's what MoD should consider, especially if Dassault keeps stalling.

 

[halloweene]

Talios is plug and play pod that can be used by mirages for example. Simply because it covers entire decision chain (some of them not really useful on Rafale which already have video datalinks). It also has some nice features like detection of ground moving targets... Also air to air identification and tracking.
As i explained earlier, a low collateral weapon IS being implemented in a crash program.
Meteor will only be fully integrated on EFA in 2018 also.
But the important things are elsewhere both for F3-R and F4 standard (which will not be MLU btw). It is in weapon systems, radar evolutions and maturation (takes time), new version of spectra using all the sensors to their best. Very high band discrete datalink (for F4) etc. IOC of partners nations Captor E is scheduled by 2021. During this time RBE2 will have much evolved .

 

[sancho]

Talios is plug and play pod that can be used by mirages for example.

It has to be, because the prime reason to go for a pod, was the further use of French M2K-5s and the export potential in the Gulf region, with customers that can't get the Litening.
For IAF however, the Talios is not really important, since they already decided to upgrade the M2Ks with Litening 4s and with the whole fleet using them (LCA, MKI, Mig 29UPG, M2K-5, Jaguar UPG), it is a no brainer which LDP IAF will take for Rafale. That's why I said, it was a huge mistake by Thales / Dassault to not offer the co-development of the pod as part of the ToT / offset package (just like other things), because that had made India commited to the pod too. Now Thales has only a limited order and the French government a huge bill.

some of them not really useful on Rafale which already have video datalinks

True, just as most of the techs are already included in the FSO-IT, be it the FLIR or laser range finder and the the visual ID capability. That's why these duplication doesn't really make sense for Rafale, while it adds capabilties for the M2K.
If the visual ID range of Talios is broughtly similar to FSO-IT, it would had made much more sense to use an integrated Talios instead of FSO.

In the meantime:

UK-Bahrain Base Deal Could Lead to Typhoon Sales

Hopes of Britain selling Typhoon combat jets and other defense and security equipment to Bahrain have been buoyed by a deal between the two countries to extend Royal Navy facilities at the Mina Salman naval base in the Arabian Gulf, industry executives and analysts said...

...One industry executive said fighter jets, maritime security, cyber protection and border protection are among the export sectors that could benefit from growing ties between the two countries.

“The potential relationship could provide lots of opportunities for partnership which are not just confined to Typhoon and not just confined to defense exports,” the executive said. “There is the possibility of a much wider engagement and there have been lots of discussions going on between the two armed forces.”

Britain has been in discussions over a possible government-to-government sale of 12 to 14 Typhoons to Bahrain for several years.

UK-Bahrain Base Deal Could Lead to Typhoon Sales | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[he-man]

Not impossible but you did post a valid point though

if kaveri is indeed scrapped then a new aero program from GTRE if indeed happens then they would have role from Scenema in it's development

but how much??

time would tell

we are not buying rafale for granted

CHEERS

Impossible.
0 CHANCE.

No one shares engine tech,,no one.

 

[sancho]

And another one:

Typhoon fitted with Brimstone missile for the first time

The trial fit is an important milestone in demonstrating the integration of the missile with the aircraft and follows the successful completion of an initial £5M study contract awarded to us by the UK’s Ministry of Defence earlier this year. The trials are helping to pave the way for Brimstone 2 integration for the UK’s Royal Air Force (RAF) by 2018...

...Fitting of the Brimstone missile comes in a year that has seen progress across a range of programmes for Typhoon. The UK RAF are now operating the most advanced Typhoon to date with the latest Phase 1 Enhancement package now in operation. This upgrade delivers true simultaneous swing-role capability to Typhoon.

Progress is also being made across a number of weapons programmes including the award of a full integration contract for the Storm Shadow weapon and further trials to fully integrate the Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-To-Air missile. In addition an EUR1bn contract to develop and fit the Captor E-Scan radar was signed on 19 November which will give Typhoon one of the most advanced radar systems in the world, providing a wider field of regard than any other combat aircraft.

Newsroom - BAE Systems

 

[halloweene]

Sancho, co-developments are part of the contract and can't be offered before it is signed imho.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho

French Air Chief Confident on Rafale Exports | C4ISR & Networks | c4isrnet.com

In this news there are some points regarding Rafale's future upgradations

The concerns expressed by you are already being looked at by Dassault

 

[sancho]

Sancho, co-developments are part of the contract and can't be offered before it is signed imho.

Why not? The EF consortium offered the joint development of radar or TVC for EF in M-MRCA or LCA MK2s engine tender. Saab offered the joint development of the twin seater and naval Gripen to Brazil.
These techs and capabilities could had been offered as part of the ToT / offset proposal and would had been far more interesting for India too. If there is a joint development of IRST is on offer, it is part of the ToT/offset proposals too right?

The concerns expressed by you are already being looked at by Dassault

No they are not, since neither IRST, HMS, or credible weapon upgrades are considered (btw it once again confirms that Brimstone is out of question for Rafale), that we need now. The future upgrades beyond 2020 are not much of a concern to me, I an looking at what could be available for IAF around the time we get the M-MRCAs from the vendors or when the licence production starts, so upgrades "till" 2020!

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho

Sir ALL the criticism of Rafale SO FAR in the Indian media
has been about the PRICE and the sidelining of LCA due to Rafale

None of the criticism has been regarding Rafale's capabilities

Read this article ; It has already answered your concerns
TRISHUL: Dassault Aviation’s Rafale Wins India's M-MRCA Competition

In fact the prolonged negotiations do point out that we are EXTRACTING the
Best possible TOT and offset package ever

After all IAF / MOD has to sell this deal to the Indian Tax payer

 

[halloweene]

Why not? The EF consortium offered the joint development of radar or TVC for EF in M-MRCA or LCA MK2s engine tender. Saab offered the joint development of the twin seater and naval Gripen to Brazil.
These techs and capabilities could had been offered as part of the ToT / offset proposal and would had been far more interesting for India too. If there is a joint development of IRST is on offer, it is part of the ToT/offset proposals too right?



No they are not, since neither IRST, HMS, or credible weapon upgrades are considered (btw it once again confirms that Brimstone is out of question for Rafale), that we need now. The future upgrades beyond 2020 are not much of a concern to me, I an looking at what could be available for IAF around the time we get the M-MRCAs from the vendors or when the licence production starts, so upgrades "till" 2020!

As i told earlier, a HMS IS being fully integated. Did you read carefully the article linked above about french CEMAA confident? There are VERY interesting data about post 2020 evolutions (smart skin awaited in 2020-2025, aswell as High speed radar datalink etc.)