Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[cerberus]

That was the total price for 42 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and 71 additional Mi-17 V5 helicopters which was signed when putin was here.

Here are facts from a FAR more Reliable newspaper called the Hindu.

India, Russia sign defence deals worth around $3 billion - The Hindu

...India today inked deals worth around $ 3 billion (Rs. 16510 crore) with Russia to procure 42 new Su–30 MKI combat aircraft and 71 Mi–17V5 medium-lift helicopters.

...Under one contract worth around $ 2.2 billion (Rs. 12107 crore) for licence production of 42 Su–30MKIs, Russia will deliver technical kits to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)


i.e each Su 30MKi kit was worth 47.2 million $.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece

Source: Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 676
you missed last line 102 million per piece
that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
In June 2010, it was reported that the Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared the 150 billion (US$2.4 billion) deal and that the 42 aircraft would be in service by 2018.[23][24]

IAF Su-30MKI
By August 2010, the cost increased to $4.3 billion or $102 million each.this increased unit cost compared to the previous unit cost of $40 million in 2007, has led to the rumours that these latest order of 42 Su-30MKIs are for the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) and these aircraft will be optimised and hardwired for nuclear weapons delivery.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Here is Russian source,

India to Buy $3 Bln Worth of Russian Warplanes, Helicopters | Business | RIA Novosti

India will buy 71 Mi-17B-5 Hip helicopters worth $1.3 billion, while the other provides for the delivery of assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKI Flanker fighters, worth $1.6 billion.

Which give price of each Mi -17B-5 Helicopter at 18.3 Million $

and

Price of each Su 30MKI knock down kit at 38 million $.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece

Source: Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 676
you missed last line 102 million per piece
that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
In June 2010, it was reported that the Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared the 150 billion (US$2.4 billion) deal and that the 42 aircraft would be in service by 2018.[23][24]

IAF Su-30MKI
By August 2010, the cost increased to $4.3 billion or $102 million each.this increased unit cost compared to the previous unit cost of $40 million in 2007, has led to the rumours that these latest order of 42 Su-30MKIs are for the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) and these aircraft will be optimised and hardwired for nuclear weapons delivery.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

YOU POST says that Cabinet Committee on Security cleared 150 billion Rs. which is 15,000 crores for 42 Su 30MKI.

That translates to 357 crores per Su 30MKI or 58.5 Million $.

Now pls stop quoting me further. You can believe what ever you want.

 

[sancho]

Alternatively we can also assume that I Rafale is better than 2 Su 30MKI or one Su 30 MKI+2 LCA.

Only if the price of the fighters would tell you anything about the capability of the fighter and it's operational worth for IAF, but it doesn't (1 x Rafale can operationally equal 1.5 x LCA in strike and another LCA in escort config). Just as these comparisions of costs, doesn't include the aims of the M-MRCA competition, which apart of getting a new fighter, was to get new capabilities for IAF and industrial advantages for the Indian industry. Both these aims can't be justified by more Su 30s and LCAs, because they deliver the same weapons and techs IAF already has, nor will they add new industrial capabilities, since we are producing these fighters already...

And if all that would not enough to show that it doesn't make sense to claim LCA would be an alternative, the simple fact that LCA MK2 is nowhere near to be developed at least as a prototype, the fact that even ADA/DRDO officials stated that the early MK2s might not have AESA, or the fact that we still don't know the operational capability MK2 might get by the time (2019), should make clear that it's still largely a paper project, while IAF needs a fighter that is ready and available as soon as possible!

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Only if the price of the fighters would tell you anything about the capability of the fighter and it's operational worth for IAF, but it doesn't (1 x Rafale can operationally equal 1.5 x LCA in strike and another LCA in escort config). Just as these comparisions of costs, doesn't include the aims of the M-MRCA competition, which apart of getting a new fighter, was to get new capabilities for IAF and industrial advantages for the Indian industry. Both these aims can't be justified by more Su 30s and LCAs, because they deliver the same weapons and techs IAF already has, nor will they add new industrial capabilities, since we are producing these fighters already...

And if all that would not enough to show that it doesn't make sense to claim LCA would be an alternative, the simple fact that LCA MK2 is nowhere near to be developed at least as a prototype, the fact that even ADA/DRDO officials stated that the early MK2s might not have AESA, or the fact that we still don't know the operational capability MK2 might get by the time (2019), should make clear that it's still largely a paper project, while IAF needs a fighter that is ready and available as soon as possible!

Hence the world "Assume", not point in knocking down a strawman.

 

[sancho]

Hence the world "Assume", not point in knocking down a strawman.

Assume or not, your base was the cost for X fighters and that's the wrong part. Another example is the Mig 29K, that we buy for around $46 millios each, N-LCA MK2 will pretty much come at the same cost, but is not able to provide the same operational performance.
And it wasn't against you, but against the idea that Su30s + LCA would be an alternative, just because the costs for X fighters "might" be similar.

 

[cerberus]

Hence the world "Assume", not point in knocking down a strawman.

and you keep your rants on the price are pecked to 102 million each for 42 mki which are of super sukhoi standard armed with brahmos strategic missile same Upgrade will applied all mki's under IAF

 

[Somras]

You are wrong.

The last order for 42 Su 30 MKI from HAL was worth almost 15,000 crores which make each Su 30 MKI worth 58.5 Million $ or ~ 60 Million $.

The LCA price was pegged at 162 crores per aircraft by HAL which makes it 26.5 million $ for Tejas.

So for 120 million we get either 2 Su 30 MKI or

One Su30 MKI + 2 LCA Mk1

Alternatively we can also assume that I Rafale is better than 2 Su 30MKI or one Su 30 MKI+2 LCA. (considering the professional abilities of IAF)

Is it possible that 1 rafale is better than either of the combinations ?

i Rafale is better than 2 Su30MKI or

1 Rafale better than 1 Su 30 Mki + 2 LCA Mk1

1 Rafale is better than 1 Su30MKI + 1 LCA mk1 + 1 LCAMk2

also this kind of combination
will rapidly ramp up Nos which are much desired to increase the Squadron strenght of IAF

while we will only get 126 Rafale in the same price we can get

126 Su30 MKI + 126 LCA Mk1 + 126 LCAmk2

also having 252 nos of LCA will free up Su30MKI in IAF fleet to focus more on AIr superiority Air Dominance Roles

while the 252 LCA can replace and takeover Mig 21 roles - point defence, Air Interception, CAS, Ground Pounding etc

Only if the price of the fighters would tell you anything about the capability of the fighter and it's operational worth for IAF, but it doesn't (1 x Rafale can operationally equal 1.5 x LCA in strike and another LCA in escort config). Just as these comparisions of costs, doesn't include the aims of the M-MRCA competition, which apart of getting a new fighter, was to get new capabilities for IAF and industrial advantages for the Indian industry. Both these aims can't be justified by more Su 30s and LCAs, because they deliver the same weapons and techs IAF already has, nor will they add new industrial capabilities, since we are producing these fighters already...

And if all that would not enough to show that it doesn't make sense to claim LCA would be an alternative, the simple fact that LCA MK2 is nowhere near to be developed at least as a prototype, the fact that even ADA/DRDO officials stated that the early MK2s might not have AESA, or the fact that we still don't know the operational capability MK2 might get by the time (2019), should make clear that it's still largely a paper project, while IAF needs a fighter that is ready and available as soon as possible!

you mean to say a single rafale can replace 2 LCA + 1 Su30MKI?

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Assume or not, your base was the cost for X fighters and that's the wrong part. Another example is the Mig 29K, that we buy for around $46 millios each, N-LCA MK2 will pretty much come at the same cost, but is not able to provide the same operational performance.
And it wasn't against you, but against the idea that Su30s + LCA would be an alternative, just because the costs for X fighters "might" be similar.

Cost is ALWAYS the main factor in real life. Do you work for a living ? just curious. You sound like a college kid living on parents money.

ANY purchase is first and foremost weighted against cost benefit ratio. Rafale will be selected if it offers the best ratio, its always as simple as that. End of the day every purchase is designed to make our war making capability deliver bang for the buck. That is what evolution in arms and ammunition is all about.

All those technological marvels is ALL about increasing the Bang for the buck.

Is it possible that 1 rafale is better than either of the combinations ?
i Rafale is better than 2 Su30MKI or
1 Rafale better than 1 Su 30 Mki + 2 LCA Mk1
1 Rafale is better than 1 Su30MKI + 1 LCA mk1 + 1 LCAMk2
also this kind of combination
will rapidly ramp up Nos which are much desired to increase the Squadron strenght of IAF
while we will only get 126 Rafale in the same price we can get
126 Su30 MKI + 126 LCA Mk1 + 126 LCAmk2
also having 252 nos of LCA will free up Su30MKI in IAF fleet to focus more on AIr superiority Air Dominance Roles
while the 252 LCA can replace and takeover Mig 21 roles - point defence, Air Interception, CAS, Ground Pounding etc

Rafale has to be be better than any available combination for IAF and MoD to take a call to purchase it. There is no two ways on it.

End of the day all technological advancements are all about delivering higher destructive power for the same cost. Include opportunity cost and cost of Risk to your equations. End of the day its all about the money honey.

 

[Somras]

Rafale has to be be better than any available combination for IAF and MoD to take a call to purchase it. There is no two ways on it.

End of the day all technological advancements are all about delivering higher destructive power for the same cost. Include opportunity cost and cost of Risk to your equations. End of the day its all about the money honey.

thats the whole point

we can get more bang for the buck IF we drop rafale

 

[Bang Galore]

Alternatively we can also assume that I Rafale is better than 2 Su 30MKI or one Su 30 MKI+2 LCA. (considering the professional abilities of IAF)

I made a similar point for long - that the MMRCA deal was flawed because we ended up shortlisting the two most expensive platforms & then squared of one against the other on cost. Guaranteed to blow your budget to bits. Would have very much liked to know what the unit costs of a Gripen & F18 was and we could then have a better idea of how much exactly the Rafale (or the EF) was better by & what would be the cost for being that much better. Might have given us a much better picture than doing it this way.

 

[Kloitra]

Is it possible that 1 rafale is better than either of the combinations ?

i Rafale is better than 2 Su30MKI or

1 Rafale better than 1 Su 30 Mki + 2 LCA Mk1

1 Rafale is better than 1 Su30MKI + 1 LCA mk1 + 1 LCAMk2

also this kind of combination
will rapidly ramp up Nos which are much desired to increase the Squadron strenght of IAF

while we will only get 126 Rafale in the same price we can get

126 Su30 MKI + 126 LCA Mk1 + 126 LCAmk2

also having 252 nos of LCA will free up Su30MKI in IAF fleet to focus more on AIr superiority Air Dominance Roles

while the 252 LCA can replace and takeover Mig 21 roles - point defence, Air Interception, CAS, Ground Pounding etc




you mean to say a single rafale can replace 2 LCA + 1 Su30MKI?

I hope you are also adding the weapon packages, life cycle costs. Su30 is maintenance heavy, requiring an engine overhaul every 700 hours. Adding more Su30 mki/LCA would not give the additional capability provided by Rafale. ToT was part of the deal. Not limiting to one supplier (Russia).
It would be better if you compare with western fighters only.

 

[halloweene]

P.S. No official quote, but maybe Scorpions explanations helps:



eurofighter @ starstreak.net • View topic - Typhoon Upgrades & Enhancements

TY Sancho, i'm in contact with Scorpion and his explanations help a lot. but SRP14 Step1 is sensed to be P2Ea, and Step2 PE2b. Maybe they switched Meteor integration from P2Eb to P2Ea, or the capability will be tested before but the induction in forces will go with P2Eb

 

[Somras]

I hope you are also adding the weapon packages, life cycle costs. Su30 is maintenance heavy, requiring an engine overhaul every 700 hours. Adding more Su30 mki/LCA would not give the additional capability provided by Rafale. ToT was part of the deal. Not limiting to one supplier (Russia).
It would be better if you compare with western fighters only.

700hrs

pl recheck

weapons package is not included neither in rafale

even the commitee members 2 memebers have questioned the life cycle costs calculation for Rafale

saying that Rafale didnt provide many details and figures and also doubted many assumptions etc for lCC calculations for Rafale

also Su30MKI is maintenance heavy ans so is Rafale

neither can be flown 3 sorties / day

only LCA can fly 3/4 sories / day

buying a combo of LCA and SU30MKI will do what ?

it will

1. increase the Nos of IAF - increase the Squadran strangth

2. having large nos of LCA in the IAF will help in reducing the relaince on Heavy plane (Su30MKI) for simple tasks +will keep it free

 

[greatone]

Why is IAF so infatuated with getting so many different platforms ?
Cant they make do with MKIs as high end and Mirages/Mig29/Mig 21 as low end 4th gen platforms till we get LCA, FGFA and AMCA(in that order)
Why the need for Rafale now ?
When the whole world is moving towards 5th gen and trying to save costs by using a single platform( read F 35), our highly professional air force wants our country to give away anywhere between 10-15% of our total foreign exchange for 126 shiny toys(these btw are are more or less as capable as planes already in our inventory)

Is that really justifiable ?

 

[Kloitra]

700hrs

pl recheck

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

• As a precautionary step, the IAF has started servicing the engine after 700 flying hrs instead 1,000 hrs

If the terms servicing and overhauling have different meaning in the context, than I apologize for confusion.

weapons package is not included neither in rafale

even the commitee members 2 memebers have questioned the life cycle costs calculation for Rafale

saying that Rafale didnt provide many details and figures and also doubted many assumptions etc for lCC calculations for Rafale

also Su30MKI is maintenance heavy ans so is Rafale

neither can be flown 3 sorties / day

only LCA can fly 3/4 sories / day

I vaguely remember the deal included training, infra and some weapons. I might be wrong. On cost, it is general assumption that a western fighter is generally easy on maintenance. And given Rafale is lighter, it is cheaper to use than Mki.

buying a combo of LCA and SU30MKI will do what ?

it will

1. increase the Nos of IAF - increase the Squadran strangth

2. having large nos of LCA in the IAF will help in reducing the relaince on Heavy plane (Su30MKI) for simple tasks +will keep it free

Rafale is better suited for SEAD missions. I do remember reading there are some other requirements that Rafale meats better than Mki.