Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Astra-2013]

we should favor this deal only if France give us full tot for building it here in india from raw material at least 90% of it if not 100%. otherwise this deal should be cancelled.

mujhse pucho to, i want this deal cancelled. Because than IAF will have no other option, and they have to support indigenous R&D and manufacturing.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Pretty strange conclusions in the article, Rafale would never be used for top cover MKIs, because the capabilities of the fighters would be far better used the other way around.

i didnt get your POV basically

no where in the article did it claimed that Rafale would be used for cover MKIs rather the article claimed MKI would doing the cover work by destroying
AWACS through Ks 100 novator .But i dont have any latest update about K100 novator sadly

CHEERS

 

[DrSomnath999]

True my fault misread the part, but the article remains with strange conclusions, because India wilml never gain air superiority with just 2 squadrons of Rafale, even with AWACS support (that still needs to come in a useful manner, while our opponents already have the advantage there). IAF will always will need the MKI, while the Rafale and force multipliers surely will increase their capability, but we simply are not facing easy opponents like the NATO does in most cases.



.

you have actually misintepreted that part

he is assuming according to the scenario of france size area & equating with size of india in relation to that air superiority part

Basically he did claimed the support of MKI with AWACS killer ofcourse by 2020 we gonna have a upgraded SU 30mki with aesa radar is in it??? & there numbers are indeed quite high at the moment in IAF inventory

& plus the capabilty of rafale cant be ignored even if it's squadron strength is about 2 squadrons by 2020

In real time this scenario can also happen becoz growing instabilty in the neighbourhood + expansionist philosophy countries
anything is possible by 2020 .

Absolute air superiority of rafale depends upon which threat it is facing


CHEERS

 

[Aitreyan]

orts before the summer sounded rather positive for Qatar, however that's good for India tho

Sadly I wanted this plane even more than Fgfa From Russia.

Sadley I was worried by the cost over 15 months ago and did suggest the Indians getting cold feet.

I think my prediction was bang on I did mention slow down in GDP growth the devalue of rupee as s cause of my concern.

Some people got very shirty with my post

FGFA is replacement for SU-30MKI one cannot compared MRCA deal with FGFA both are require as for T-50 its next generation fighter

One reason India will buy Rafale is because of satisfactory experience with using Mirage-2000 during kargil conflict , the aircraft was used to deliver laser guided bombs against entrenched targets and aircraft performed excellent and has become a legend

As for Mistral postponement its bad decision and should be reversed

 

[Storm Force]

Indian air force with upgraded mki and aesa radar combined with Rafale is a formidable air power. Arguably the best in Asia bar china and Saudi and the israelis

 

[halloweene]

Talked about that with a Dassault executive, he agreed that BPC story isn't good for the image of France, but is not worried. Stakes are too high according to him.

 

[sancho]

he is assuming according to the scenario of france size area & equating with size of india in relation to that air superiority part

That's the point, because that part is only comparing to the French / Nato scenarios and not to the actual Indian scenario. Our opponents are much more capable than anything NATO has dealt with in the last decades and they are already ahead in the AWACS scenario, that's why we can't achive superiority in that field unless we actually get a game changer and that can't be current gen fighters, be it the Rafale or the MKI. Only FGFA will be able to actually change the game, because it has the capability to counter the AWACS capability of our opponents.
AESA btw is not a game changer, it adds to capability, but far more important than that are modern passive EW sensors with 360° FoV and reduced RCS that the upgraded MKIs and the new Rafales will have.

Talked about that with a Dassault executive, he agreed that BPC story isn't good for the image of France, but is not worried. Stakes are too high according to him.

Of course it's not good for France and export interests, but not in case of India, because there is hardly a scenario, where India would end up getting against NATO interests and that's the point with Russia today, which led to this decision or the srapping of many European JVs Russia.
Actually, I wonder more about the US now thinking twice about selling high techs to India (close ally and supporter of Russia), than that France would restrict any sales to India. For instance, the follow on deal for Palcon AWACS with Israel, is based on the same Russian A50 platforms we already use and if the US / NATO is strict about not allowing NATO and their partners to deal with Russia on arms and techs in any way, they actually must stop Israel from putting their radar on a Russian aircraft. But that obviously will upset India, so that will be a very tricky issue.

 

[DrSomnath999]

That's the point, because that part is only comparing to the French / Nato scenarios and not to the actual Indian scenario. Our opponents are much more capable than anything NATO has dealt with in the last decades and they are already ahead in the AWACS scenario, that's why we can't achive superiority in that field unless we actually get a game changer and that can't be current gen fighters, be it the Rafale or the MKI. Only FGFA will be able to actually change the game, because it has the capability to counter the AWACS capability of our opponents.
AESA btw is not a game changer, it adds to capability, but far more important than that are modern passive EW sensors with 360° FoV and reduced RCS that the upgraded MKIs and the new Rafales will have.

You need to understand that the author is mentioning about the air policing role perhaps . He beleives that usually 2 rafales are used
to that mission for france if any case a greater threat arises then it can call for back up .
Just like the police do patrolling in the city when the threat is easy then can take it out but if the threat is dangerous/ riot happens then
they call for backup .You dont need to use all your assets for routine patrolling that would be very costly

If that the case then france would have only made 1 squadron of rafale for themselves & india would have not order 126 planes at the
1st place


Regarding
1st bold part

Thats why i had mentioned earliear that Rafale air superiority depends upon the threat which it is facing & what kind of mission the plane have been configured to carry how many no of it's BVRAAMs (meteor & Mica IR)

for instance your are facing against a plane without aesa radar & is not stealthy then absolute air superiority is posssible for eg
JF17/J10a /F16

BUt if your facing a non stealthy plane with AESA radar J11b /J15 /J10b then absolute air superiority depends upon rafale's EW suite & passive detection capabilty plus BVRAAM (meteor + MICA IR) 1st detect/1st shoot& 1st kill scenario


But against a stealth plane with AESA radar j20 /j31 then absolute air superiority becomes very difficult it have to rely on Passive detection /active cancellation tech + BVRAAM 's Kp against those platforms .

Regarding AWACS threat/SAM threat / Aerostat /airborne Electronic attack plaforms threat appropiate counter missiles & strategy is required to take them out
a) AWACS killer missile Ks 100 novator as mentioned by the author is a solution against AWACS
b) Rafale has to get a proper ANTI radiation missile with long range to do SEAD missiions against more greater threat LIBYA was slighly
easiear

c) AErostat are easier to take out with BVRAAMs or anti radiation missiles
d) against Airborne Electronic attack platforms Rafale's passive detection advantage with IRST would be very handy You gonna take them
out with MICA IR or any heat seeking BVRAAM


2nd BOLD PART

I agree AESA is not the only game changer others are also required
But AESA radar with long range capabilty would be very crucial becoz it can help other planes to target enemy planes through mini awacs
concept from standoff distance meanhile other planes such as Rafale can be in passive mode

France has to rely on rafale's RBE 2 aesa radar /or their awacs to do that thing but we have SU 30 MKI with an AESA radar which range
is far greater than RBE 2 aesa radar itself plus own AWACS are also there

PAssive detection has it's limitiations & Rafale & MKI both are not 5th gen planes like stealthy, so AESA radar would still remain the primary sensor for aerial combat plus the BVRAAMS which each platform it would carry

Of course it's not good for France and export interests, but not in case of India, because there is hardly a scenario, where India would end up getting against NATO interests and that's the point with Russia today, which led to this decision or the srapping of many European JVs Russia.
Actually, I wonder more about the US now thinking twice about selling high techs to India (close ally and supporter of Russia), than that France would restrict any sales to India. For instance, the follow on deal for Palcon AWACS with Israel, is based on the same Russian A50 platforms we already use and if the US / NATO is strict about not allowing NATO and their partners to deal with Russia on arms and techs in any way, they actually must stop Israel from putting their radar on a Russian aircraft. But that obviously will upset India, so that will be a very tricky issue.

I do 2nd that bold part

becoz if you see india's nuclear test scenario the india's bring the china card scenario to defencd themselves plus India is a crucial ally
&market for west companies

India dont have any hostility with european & USA until & unless pakistan joins NATO

so the sanctions were not stringest & France was among the few countries who had supported india at that time without any sanctions


But france international reputation as a reliable weapons supplier is at stake if they do it it can hamper their export potentials
& USA is doing clever job also

1 arrow & 2 targets
1) french international crediblity as a reliable weapon supplier sullies in the international weapons market

2) Rafale deal would be indirectly affected pyschologically from indian point of view

CHEERS

 

[halloweene]

Today's demo, Payerne, Switzerland.

 

[sancho]

You need to understand that the author is mentioning about the air policing role perhaps .

He clearly states the air superiority role in the example.

If that the case then france would have only made 1 squadron of rafale for themselves & india would have not order 126 planes at the
1st place

Doesn't really makes sense, because AESA is only the upgrade to older Radar systems, therefore we just required the most modern radar system, but didn't selected Rafale only because it has AESA. As I said, it adds to the capabilities of the fighter, but is of no use, if the enemy has propper AWACS support! The low RCS, terrain avoiding capabilities, passive MICA attacks and in future METEOR will play a far more important role, when IAF is in attack, than the AESA itself.

for instance your are facing against a plane without aesa radar & is not stealthy then absolute air superiority is posssible

Of course, but only if the opponent fighter doesn't have AWACS support, otherwise they will fly with their own radars turned off, which makes them harder to detect, while they will get the positions of our fighters via AWACS. That's the same tactics we used with MKIs and Bisons for example, just that propper AWACS support makes this far better.
That's why that scenario fits to the opponents of the NATO so far, but not to ours!

France has to rely on rafale's RBE 2 aesa radar /or their awacs to do that thing but we have SU 30 MKI with an AESA radar which range
is far greater than RBE 2 aesa radar itself plus own AWACS are also there

They always have AWACS support when they use Rafale (E-3 or E-2), the AESA is only an addition, but doesn't make the AWACS support any less important. IAF had no AWACS for a long time (and even today not anywhere close to the needed numbers), that's when the long range and wide field of view of the BARS was a crucial advantage, but as mentioned above, that is countered today by our opponents and even for the so called mini AWACS role, the T50 will be the game changer, because it can do the role while being within the enemy air space and can detect threats, before they can detect the following IAF fighters.

 

[Agent_47]

let's hope SCALP is part of MMRCA package.

 

[sancho]

Steinmeier in India: "Euro Fighter" consortium may hope for mega deal again

In India, wild speculation: Gets the armorers Cassidian still one of the biggest deals in the industry history? In New Delhi, Foreign Minister Steinmeier indicates that the race for the "Euro Fighter" delivery is still open.

The European arms consortium Cassidian, now renamed Airbus Defence & Space, but apparently still has chances of the largest arms deal in the world. During his visit to India Foreign Minister confirmed Frank-Walter Steinmeier (SPD) confirmed rumors that the Indians have not yet determined the planned purchase of more than 120 fighter jets to modernize its air force to the product and also the "Euro Fighter," the consortium from Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain so that is still in the race for the huge arms deal.

However, the foreign minister did not stand as a recruiter for the huge arms deal itself. When talking to the new Premier Narendra Modi the issue played no part. However Steinmeier had put in an interview the "Euro Fighter," even on the agenda of his visit. "We believe that the 'Eurofighter' consortium has submitted a good offer, and we support it," the politician of the newspaper "The Hindu" said. The deal is in the Indian press for years a huge issue, with a volume of up to 15 billion euros, he breaks records.
After speaking with modes Steinmeier remained conscious restrained before the terraces German journalists. Still subject to the Indians of his knowledge before two offers for the giant arms deal. "The Indians have yet to decide which offer them the best," said the minister in front of the residence of the new prime minister. Previously it was assumed that the Indians had already decided in 2012 for the French competitor "Rafale", for Cassidian was a tough setback...

Eurofighter: Cassidian darf wieder auf Mega-Deal hoffen - SPIEGEL ONLINE


More hope than actual changes, but the fact that they still can talk about the EF is the crucial part, since the government / PM Modi could had taken a clear stand and take that topic of the list, which would had made clear, that Rafale is the choice and no change is possible.

 

[he-man]

Eurofighter: Cassidian darf wieder auf Mega-Deal hoffen - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Not a chance..........too late for negotiations to start again plus the statement by the iaf chief last week practically seals the fate

 

[sancho]

Not a chance..........too late for negotiations to start again plus the statement by the iaf chief last week practically seals the fate

Look at the LUH competition and you will see it's not and the statement of the IAF chief is nothing important, we have heared the same from his predecessors too, but they are only expressing their hope to sign the deal soon, but IAF is not taking decisions. As long as the GoI / MoD has not taken an official stand or even gives out a clear statement about their policies, everything is possible.
But I don't think the new EF offer is impressive enough to make a difference, unless there is more than the speculated cost reduction.

 

[he-man]

Look at the LUH competition and you will see it's not and the statement of the IAF chief is nothing important, we have heared the same from his predecessors too, but they are only expressing their hope to sign the deal soon, but IAF is not taking decisions. As long as the GoI / MoD has not taken an official stand or even gives out a clear statement about their policies, everything is possible.
But I don't think the new EF offer is impressive enough to make a difference, unless there is more than the speculated cost reduction.

No comparison b/w luh and mmrca.
mmrca is critical for us.

Plus the swiss evaluation report pegs rafale much better than ef.
Also captor-e aesa is a few years away still while rbe2 aa is up and running for 2 years now.

And the biggest factor is fear of sanctions....................we should avoid a 4 nation consortium especially one having britain