Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[godofwar]

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

They will upgrade the Gripen C with the NG features, but fully conversion is impossible. The airframes are different.
Please note that they will do both things, upgrade the C models with NG features and produce 60 to 70 new E models.

No, the upgrade has been abolished, because of requests for lease agreements by foreign Air Forces.

 

[atlssa]

When and where was this pic taken? Details please!

The picture was taken over Paris on September 20, 2013.

Business - Airbus A400M finally delivered to French officials - France 24

No, the upgrade has been abolished, because of requests for lease agreements by foreign Air Forces.

I see... All of them?

 

[sancho]

They will upgrade the Gripen C with the NG features, but fully conversion is impossible. The airframes are different.
Please note that they will do both things, upgrade the C models with NG features and produce 60 to 70 new E models.

That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.

...Speaking at the company's Linköping production facility near Stockholm in mid-March, Lennart Sindahl, head of the Aeronautics division at Saab...
...With the final C/D block upgrade for the Swedish Air Force (SwAF) being the MS 20 standard (MS 21 will form the initial Gripen E configuration), future C/D upgrades will be designated MS 20+, and the like...
...Saab is under contract to rebuild 60 of the SwAF's 75 Gripen C airframes into Gripen Es (although this may increase to 70 under recent government proposals to strengthen national defence in light of the Ukrainian crisis). The air force's 25 twin-seat Gripen Ds will remain in service as operational trainer aircraft until all Gripen Es have been delivered in 2026.

Although the current contract is to convert Gripen C airframes into Gripen Es ...

ILA2014: Czechs showcase Gripen C at Berlin, as Saab promises future upgrades - IHS Jane's 360

 

[atlssa]

Official news but not published
IQAF commanders have revealed that France offered to arm Iraq with Dassault Rafale and NH-90 helicopters during the anti-terrorism conference a while ago.

Is it possible to get more details about it?

That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.

I believe you're wrong my friend, but let's not discuss about them. I don't really care about their Gripen, as long as we get ours. LOL

 

[Donatello]

That's more than enough to change the game, because reviewing things can be done with different priorities. We have seen that in the Brazilian competition, where the earlier government had the focus on political long term and industrial advantages, while the current government changed the priorities to an increased focus on costs too. That then naturally played against the Rafale, that was found to be the most capable / suitable fighter, based on technical standards, but had no chance to remain a viable choice, in a country with increasing economic and financial problems.

In India finiancial prioirities might not be the issue, but when the focus is changed on indigenous techs, based on blind patroism, the LCA will gain more importance than an MMRCA and that just like in Switzerland, even if it's below the required technical requirements of the MMRCA!
The other point is, that the EF consortium with it's powerful private industrial players and influencial European governments behind it, will have a complete new partner to push for. Antony was highly focused on a clean competion, without any political influence and he achived that. The MMRCA is maybe one of the very few competition, where even the vendors that lost out, had praised MoD and IAF for how the competition was done, even if they were unfortunate to be out.
IF BJP however review the competition and decides that more industrial and political points must have priorities, the EF will surely get a boost!
And as I said recently, even if you look at both fighters not only based on the competition results and offers, but include the delayed delivery, as well as the changes of both fighters with technical prospect in mind, things can change for the Rafale!

The original Rafale offer, of course included IRST (which than was still in production), HMS to fulfill the requirements, but also had the Damocles XF LDP on offer, which was meant to be available by 2016, not to mention that one of the crucial capabilities for the Rafale is the AASM.
When you look at the Rafale today and with a possible delivery by 2017/18, you will see that the IRST is not available anymore and fulfilling the requirements requires additional funds, funds that already are needed to integrate the HMS. The fact that the French went for a French specific F3R upgrade, rather than one that is orientend at increasing export customer demands, killed the Damocles XF and now give an alternative only by 2018. For India that means integrating the Litening is a must have, not only a would be nice to have, which again requires credible additional fundings. And to make it worse, they didn't tried to develop a more cost-effective AASM version, or focused on exports, but even allowed the UAE to integrate their own PGM, which basically kills AASM exports for Rafale as well. And when you see that even the French forces actually don't want additional AASMs (still didn't funded the AASM 1000, which might be one reason why it's lost in the Mirage upgrade against SPICE 2000), but also integrated the more cost-effective GBU 49 as the CAS weapon in mass, you have to see that the potential of the Rafale with AASM is clearly going down. If we don't order it now, we might not even get it at all anymore and we all know that IAF had issues with high costly, French bombs in limited numbers before, which doesn't play in favour for the AASM either. Here again, the Israelis might offer soon a far more capable and cost-effective alternative with the SPICE 250, but that obviously not only for the Rafale!

So a BJP that claims to aim on pushing indigenous developments (LCA), is pro foreign industry involvement on the Indian market (EF consortium + partnership in the consortium for India) and even a new technical review on the shortlisted fighters, would all work against the Rafale. Actually the real pro side currently seems to be the relations of BJP and Reliance, which might influcence the government for a higher workshare for them.

If i were to take your points with merit, then they surely reek of India's incompetence to get a fighter system that is long over due and French arrogance. Even if the new government was to fast track the signing, who gets the local benefits? Is it the same tycoons who already have money and hence will make some more without the benefits actually trickling in the society?

Best bet would be to sign the deal, even if not in full numbers, and let HAL be responsible.

That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.



ILA2014: Czechs showcase Gripen C at Berlin, as Saab promises future upgrades - IHS Jane's 360

I wouldn't say Sweden doesn't have money. It's just that they don't have money to spend on stuff they wont use. Most of the European nations have given up the concept of war altogether. What they see is limited engagement due to NATO that too led by uncle Sam. Sooner than later most of the defence firms in Europe are going to get really small and go out of business. BAE systems in UK is hell bent on pushing stuff down the throat of RAF/RN just to keep the next generation employed. If you are not to fight a war, what's the point in spending billions of USD which could be spent elsewhere? The rest of the world is measured using the Scandinavian states as a benchmark. Same thing with Switzerland.

 

[sancho]

Possible EF solution to counter the Rafale with a last minute offer:

- reduce unit costs, by offering the T3B orders of the partners + the penality costs that normally would go for the EF consortium companies (paying penality to India, but keeping the production line open beyond 2020 with IAF's orders, is better than paying the penality and ending the production around 2017/18!)

- provide India with 2-3 squads of EF T3A directly from Europe, with METEOR and Paveway IV, within the next few years, (4 EF partners can produce more fighters in a shorter term, than Dassault could with a rate of 11 fighters a year)

- provide India a joint engine development offer - Kaveri / EJ 230 with 3D TVC (crucial for LCA and a future AMCA)

- get as much commonality between LCA MK2 and EF T3B (advanced MFDs, UV MAWS, PIRATE IRST...) as part of the Indian contribution to the EF consortium and include Indian funds for the AESA and CFT development till 2018

=> lower unit cost for MMRCA (operational cost will remain an issue though)
=> countering the falling squadron numbers faster
=> getting METEOR to S. Asia within the next few years
=> crucial techs for Indias indigenous engine and fighter developments
=> higher benefit for indigenous industry through large export

I believe you're wrong my friend, but let's not discuss about them. I don't really care about their Gripen, as long as we get ours. LOL

Latest news from Saab officials, not mine.

I wouldn't say Sweden doesn't have money.

Then you clearly have no idea about their budget problems and the reduction of their forces. The simple fact that they have no money to operate the Gripens they already have produced, is the reason why the lease 2nd hand Gripen C/Ds or even Saab 2000 MPAs to every export customer that wants them. They offered India Gripen C/Ds as stop gaps too, just like Switzerland that should get some, or Brazil and I'm pretty sure their chances to win with a leasing deal in Malaysia too, are pretty good too, since Malaysia can't afford new fighters anymore too.

 

[atlssa]

@Donatello
@sancho

Any idea about Modi' MoD yet?

Latest news from Saab officials, not mine.

Hmmm
I see! In the case it is possible, please give me more details about it!

 

[sancho]

Any idea about Modi' MoD yet?

Hmmm
I see! In the case it is possible, please give me more details about it!

No waiting for more infos as well and check the link in post #9574, it's with statements of Saab officials at the current ILA Air Show in Berlin and just a few days old.

 

[Donatello]

Then you clearly have no idea about their budget problems and the reduction of their forces. The simple fact that they have no money to operate the Gripens they already have produced, is the reason why the lease 2nd hand Gripen C/Ds or even Saab 2000 MPAs to every export customer that wants them. They offered India Gripen C/Ds as stop gaps too, just like Switzerland that should get some, or Brazil and I'm pretty sure their chances to win with a leasing deal in Malaysia too, are pretty good too, since Malaysia can't afford new fighters anymore too.

Defense spending is the least of their concerns, and thus least funded. For a nation like Sweden it's total waste when the chances of them being involved in a full war is near zero. Gripen was developed at a time when the there was a decent chance, but that's all gone. Now they need a minimum of force just to keep their men trained etc. They are bordered by Norway and Finland, now tell me who are they going to fight?

 

[atlssa]

who are they going to fight?

You have a point!
During the Cold War they built their military to be able to resist a Soviet invasion, which never happened.

 

[halloweene]

ILA2014: Eurofighter and MBDA announce 'paradigm shift' in Typhoon capabilities - IHS Jane's 360


Now that can be a huge game changer for MMRCA! If true, IAF could get EFs with METEOR even before the first Rafale with the missile might be available (2018 onwards), but more importantly would be more capable in CAS as I assuemed some weeks ago, with Paveway IV and Brimstone integrated. Storm Shadow will also be available, but basically useless for deep strikes without the CFTs, which might come around 2020 with SPEAR, which both puts the EF then on a whole different level as a multi role fighter, even superior to Rafale at least in terms of weapon capabilities!

just a little answer : METEOR will be available in 2018 for french airforce as part of the F3R software upgrade, but it is being integrated and coul be available before (best gusee 2016 as first "live" shot scheduled in Jan 2015). Paveway IV is not adaptable to non english bomb bodies, and is far from haveing the same capabilities as AASM (off boresight etc.) Gliding bombs have advantage in terms of cost, but are much less versatile.

Official news but not published

IQAF commanders have revealed that France offered to arm Iraq with Dassault Rafale and NH-90 helicopters during the anti-terrorism conference a while ago.

Asked to Dassault, they simply laughed.

 

[1000]

Asked to Dassault, they simply laughed.

It might be wrong information, but the one that said it brings us a lot of true news before it reaches the media, time will tell.
However France did say that they seek to supply arms to Iraq.

I saw you discussed this with other member on the other forum 'Sheytan..' , things are unclear.

 

[Indus Falcon]

That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.



ILA2014: Czechs showcase Gripen C at Berlin, as Saab promises future upgrades - IHS Jane's 360

Sweden May Fund Gripen-E Even Without International Partner | Defense News | defensenews.com

HELSINKI — The Swedish government has signaled it is ready to roll back a stipulation in its 2012 agreement with Saab that required an international partner to be in place before funding could continue for the Gripen-E project.

The government’s new, softer line, reinforced by the Ministry of Defense, puts the Gripen-E project into the category of “too big to fail.”

In the 2012 Gripen-E project agreement with Saab, the MoD stipulated that it held the right to rescind funding if an international partner could not be found to share costs and develop export markets for the aircraft. The Swedish state has already invested more than $300 million in the Gripen-E development program.

Sweden had long pinned its Gripen-E international partner hopes on Switzerland, but this avenue of cooperation was closed on May 18 when the Swiss, by a 53.4 percent referendum vote, rejected a government plan to spend $3.5 billion on acquiring 22 aircraft from Saab.

Saab has now turned its attention to Brazil. Sweden continues to negotiate a broad industry partnership to produce an initial 36 Gripen-Es for the Brazilian Air Force in cooperation with the country’s aerospace sector. Under this industrial program, Saab is building an aircraft production facility outside Sao Paulo.

“With Switzerland gone, the focus has naturally shifted to Brazil. The government has until the end of 2014 to demonstrate that the Gripen-E can find an export partner, otherwise the issue will revert to parliament for debate and possibly a vote on the Gripen-E’s future,” said Peter Hultqvist, chairman of the Parliamentary Committee On Defense.

The international partnership agreement offered by Sweden to Brazil is designed to provide strong economic benefits for all parties covering design, production, operation and lifecycle maintenance, said Karin Enström, Sweden’s defense minister.

“As I see it, the Gripen-E project’s future will require the parliament to give the government freedom of action. We need to increase our defense capability and the new Gripen is the most cost-effective way to do it. Global developments in recent months have shown that we really need Gripen E, and there is broad political support for the aircraft. Our air-defense capability, and the needs of our Air Force, must be prioritized,” said Enström.

Negotiations on an industrial agreement tied to a Gripen-E contract with Brazil are expected to be completed in December, said Hultqvist.

“This gives the government some time, but not a lot, to turn matters around and lift confidence in the Gripen-E project. Such negotiations are always uncertain. It should be remembered that Saab invested 10 years negotiating a Gripen sale to Switzerland, and as it turns out, it has no sales to show for it,” Hultqvist said

The Swedish government clearly wants to proceed with the Gripen-E project regardless of finding production and export partners, said Åsa Romson, the Green Party’s spokesperson on industry and defense.

“It would appear that the stipulation in the 2012 agreement means less and less, and was added to give the government an exit plan of last resort. The Gripen-E has taken on the stature of a project that is now too big to fail, and it seems it will continue with or without an international partner behind it. Given that Switzerland is no longer an option our party would rather see the project end here,” said Romson.

Saab believes in the long-term potential of the Gripen-E project, and its “development will continue,” said group Chairman Marcus Wallenberg.

Under a framework agreement signed in February 2013, Saab is contracted to deliver 60 Gripen-E aircraft to the Swedish Air Force. This could rise to 80 when the defense allocation is increased significantly after 2015 to accommodate an expanded 40-year Gripen-E program. ■

 

[sancho]

just a little answer : METEOR will be available...as part of the F3R software upgrade

Exactly, that's why the F3+ that are currently in production and could be available by 2016 can't have them.

Paveway IV... is far from haveing the same capabilities as AASM

Exactly, but it's main counterpart at Rafale is not AASM but GBU 49! AASM has the mentioned advantages, but they only play a role in precision strikes and SEAD in early war scenarios. In basic CAS it isn't and important choice, since it's far too costly and it's capabilities play a lower role. That's even the reason why French forces forces have added GBU 49 and are searching for another low end CAS weapon.
The counterpart to AASM in the EF might be SPEAR or a similar PGM with stand off capabilities.


So from what we know so far about the coming EF and Rafale upgrades and taking the new delivery time frame to account (including possible early deliveries), it would be like this for India:

- if signature with MMRCA winner is possible by the end of the year, first squad needs to be delivered at least by the end of 2017

- Rafale needs additional funding for HMS, Litening LDP + IRST production, to fulfill IAF requirements.
EF needs additional funding for a stand off weapon, AESA and CFTs, to fulfill IAF requirements.

- Dassault can divert around 7 x Rafale F3+ with AESA radar (but without METEOR) from initial French forces orders by 2016 and up to 11 by 2017
The EF partners can divert more EF T3A's with Captor M, Storm Shadow (for close range attack runs) and METEOR from their T3A orders, within the next 2 years

- By 2018 Dassault would be able to deliver F3R's with METEOR, but possibly without AASM anymore (=>no stand off PGM strike / SEAD advantage anymore)
While the EF partners would be able to deliver T3B, with Captor E AESA and Brimstone (AESA and CAS advantage)

- By 2020, the EF could even surpass the Rafale in capability , while the next Rafale upgrade then would be aimed at 2025 only

As I pointed out earlier too, time is playing in favour for the EF and against the Rafale at the moment, because the Saudis helped and the UK (and other partners) might be able to clear further upgrades in the next years. At the same time Rafale is loosing crucial capabilities on the one side and make only less important upgrades for export customers on the other.