Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Abingdonboy]

I wouldn't be so sure about it, as I said I don't give that much about the PR campaign, but see the election as the bigger factor. That can change everything! From Rafale a handshake away of sealing the deal now (and I was warning for a long time that Dassault should speed up), to the EF coming back in the game when a new government is in power. In Brazil the president, the defence minister openly supported the Rafale, but then the election came and a nearly fixed deal went into new evaluation and now even to a major blow for Dassault. I really don't want the same to happen in India too, at least unless the offer for India is more favourable and the longer the selection takes, the better for the EF.

To be fair sir, the Brazil examine is pretty irrelevant in this case. India is not Brazil and vice versa. The procurement in Brazil turned VERY political and the selection process seemed to be constantly changing the goal posts and different frontrunner for always fluctuating, The MMRCA selection had next to no political consideration from day 1 (RFIs) to now (commercial negotiations). There were no favourites, there were no back deals, the contenders were judged on merit and then price (L1/L2).

As you yourself have pointed out- allocations have been made for the next fiscal year to get such deals signed so I don't see elections changing much. India has matured on this front to be fair, Antony (as much as I hate agreeing with him on anything) when he says defence deals in India are largely free from political interference. I am pretty sure Modi or whomever has little interest in getting involved in defence matter and especially these sort of high profile deals. For one he's not going to want to pi$$ off the IAF who have been pressing for these birds for a long long time and desperately need them. If Modi even considers a change of direction the IAF, I am very confident, will set him straight. Up until now all the MMRCA work has been done very professionally and throughly just to avoid any sort of back tracking or cause to cancel the deal- there i very little grounds for just cancelling the deal and gifting it to the EFT. I am actually quite confident the deal will be signed by mid-2014.


And I spoke to a friend of mine who works for a firm in the EFT consortium (not directly involved in the EFT project but pretty clued up on company matter as a whole especially pertaining to India) and he says that all this talk is quite "silly" and that the confidence the EFT players had about 1 year ago in getting back into the race has all but gone. Any comments that come out are PR showmanship and for appearances more than anything (especially where the UK govt is concerned) this is the line they HAVE to take i.e. "we are ready to step in blah blah blah".... the EFT guys seem all to aware of the fact that this one has all but got away from them. They are not expecting any phone calls from the MoD on this front. In fact the dedicated EFT sales team they had in India has been disbanded and the members relocated to other projects or other parts of the world so I doubt the EFT consortium has even done as much work on revising a bid as you'd have hoped @sancho.

 

[SpArK]

Rafale: the list of Indian industrial partners takes shape
By Elodie Vallerey - Updated February 19, 2014 at 24:01 - PublishedFebruary 19, 2014 at 8:20

Aerospace - Defense , Defense , Rafale , Dassault Aviation , India

© Dassault Aviation

• According to Europe 1 website on February 19, citing the Delegate General for Armaments, the list of Indian subcontractors would be collected and schedule a signature will take shape in the context of exclusive negotiations between the Indian state and Dassault Aviation for the purchase of Rafale fighter.

On the occasion of the 2013 balance sheet activities of the Directorate General of Armaments, was a topic on everyone's lips: the sale of Rafale to India .

And very discreet Delegate General for Armaments Laurent Collet-Billon have missed some information about the signing of the contract between India and the French Dassault Aviation , which provides for the sale of 126 Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi.


"The partner identification phase is completed, so there is an agreement between Dassault and its main industrial partner of India, which is HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ld, ed.) In the coming weeks, the discussions on technical and industrial will be completed " , said Laurent Collet-Billon, reports the website of Europe 1 on February 19.

"I can not give you very specific date (the final signing of the contract, ie), I hope it will be before the end of the year. Now the important thing is not to say that it will in December 2014 the key is to see, at some point in 2014 or early 2015, that the contract exists and is implemented " , he has said Europe 1, adding that it was "useless to put excessive pressure, and also likely to be ineffective, the Indian government and its administration" .



Rafale : la liste des partenaires industriels indiens prend forme - Aéronautique - Défense

 

[kurup]

MMRCA deal will materialise soon: Antony



Defence Minister A.K. Antony said negotiations to calculate "life-cycle cost" in the purchase of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) were not settled yet but he was hopeful that the contract will materialse in the coming fiscal.

Talking to media persons at Defexpo '14 here, Antony denied there was any delay in concluding the MMRCA deal.

Antony said there were some complaints about the procedure to calculate life-cycle cost. "That's still not settled... (But) that is not affecting the process," he said.

The minister said that before taking the matter to the Cabinet Committee on Security, the defence ministry wanted clear cut answers on life-cycle cost of the combat aircraft.

"We do not want to shortcut the procedures," Antony said.

He said the ministry has already spent 92 percent of its capital budget for 2013-14 fiscal and there was no money this year for new projects.

"Major procurements are humanly possible only in next financial year," Antony said.

"(I hope) MMRCA will materialise next year," he said.

French firm Dassault Aviation bagged in 2012 the $10 billion deal for purchase of 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Officials said the MMRCA deal is "complicated" and the contract has "technicalities and legal issues".

Defence News - MMRCA deal will materialise soon: Antony

 

[kurup]

IAF's take on bid for medium multi-role combat aircraft



The Air Force has told a parliamentary committee that it could have bid for F-22 or B-2 aircraft in its quest for Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) but decided against them as both are among the costliest planes which they did not need.

"We do not spend much money in getting what we want. Currently, we could have bid for F-22 or B-2 which are one of the costliest aircraft. We do not need that," a representative of Air Force told the Standing Committee on Defence, according to the committee's report.

The Air Force argued they keep in mind the firepower of their adversaries in the northern front and their national objectives according to what the government wants them to do and then they decided on these aircraft.

The detailed reply from the Air Force came after the Committee sought to know how they arrived at a decision to buy MMRCA of such specifications and type of aircraft which would suit the country.

India had announced in 2012 that Dassault Rafale of France had won the competition due to its lower life-cycle cost. The negotiation for the procurement of 126 Rafale aircraft is now under process.

The Air Force also informed the committee that the design of Light Combat Aircraft is Indian but the components which are being installed are not all Indian.

"We have a large number of components which are being obtained from foreign sources because we do not have the capacity or the capability to manufacture them in India as of now. The delivery of LCA is likely to commence from the middle of this year," they told the Committee.

Defence News - IAF's take on bid for medium multi-role combat aircraft

I hope they are kidding ....

 

[Abingdonboy]

I hope they are kidding ....

This seems like terrible paraphrasing.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

This seems like terrible paraphrasing.

Military leaders as always, talk big - in all countries -

 

[Abingdonboy]

Military leaders as always, talk big - in all countries -

They've got budgets to secure (in democracies) and politicians are often so clueless that it requires such talk to make them listen.

 

[proud_indian]

Military leaders as always, talk big - in all countries -

f-22, b-2 seriously.......

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

They've got budgets to secure (in democracies) and politicians are often so clueless that it requires such talk to make them listen.

I don't think securing budgets is always connected to particular system of governance, otherwise China wouldn't have made it this far, same goes to the USSR.

According to India's FM the Rafale deal was called off till last year as there is no money left in the safe, isn't that some sort of contradiction?

f-22, b-2 seriously.......

Don't you think

 

[Kloitra]

f-22, b-2 seriously.......

I think it is a badly worded statement that says we didn't go for the best, but what suits us economically and fulfil our needs.

 

[Abingdonboy]

According to India's FM the Rafale deal was called off till last year as there is no money left in the safe, isn't that some sort of contradiction?

Not quite, the deal isn't ready to be signed- the talks are still on and all the multiple aspects of this deal are yet to be agreed upon by the two sides. With infinite budgetary allocation the deal STILL wouldn't have been signed this fiscal year. It will be signed sometime in mid-2014 once the elections are over and the talks have come to an end and everyone is happy.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

I think it is a badly worded statement that says we didn't go for the best, but what suits us economically and fulfil our needs.

Both are equally fine. But to assume that India is willing to buy a $750 million bomber, and then it doesn't, just because she doesn't feel like it is utterly insane = \ ..

Not quite, the deal isn't ready to be signed- the talks are still on and all the multiple aspects of this deal are yet to be agreed upon by the two sides. With infinite budgetary allocation the deal STILL wouldn't have been signed this fiscal year. It will be signed sometime in mid-2014 once the elections are over and the talks have come to an end and everyone is happy.

Agreed, but here it says there is no money left:
No money, India delays purchase of Rafale fighters - Hindustan Times

 

[Kloitra]

Both are equally fine. But to assume that India is willing to buy a $750 million bomber, and then it doesn't, just because she doesn't feel like it is utterly insane = \ ..

The real meaning is lost in translation it seems! They say it clearly though, that it is not economically possible. Its more like them telling the govt that we have the authority to bid for the costliest thing available. (Economy, seller's approval all aside) We have the authority but we consider the economy. Probably because someone raised a question regarding Rafale being costly. They said its not costliest, we could have demanded costlier, but we didn't. We understand the economy. We just want one that fulfils our need in affordable fashion.

Agreed, but here it says there is no money left:
No money, India delays purchase of Rafale fighters - Hindustan Times

It is a complicated matter. Govt allocated a certain budget for defence, based on certain prediction. That budget was used up completely due to unforeseen circumstances. Allocating additional budget now is more of bureaucratic problem than economic. Even if they have tonnes of free money, if they do allot more, they would be questioned. No politician would want to put his hand in that bee's nest. Indian red tape is not a hurdle to be overlooked.

 

[SRP]

Agreed, but here it says there is no money left:
No money, India delays purchase of Rafale fighters - Hindustan Times

No money left for this fiscal year i.e april 2013- march 2014. Next fiscal year will start from april 2014.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Thanks for taking time replying back to me, I appreciate it.

The real meaning is lost in translation it seems! They say it clearly though, that it is not economically possible. Its more like them telling the govt that we have the authority to bid for the costliest thing available. (Economy, seller's approval all aside) We have the authority but we consider the economy. Probably because someone raised a question regarding Rafale being costly. They said its not costliest, we could have demanded costlier, but we didn't. We understand the economy. We just want one that fulfils our need in affordable fashion.



It is a complicated matter. Govt allocated a certain budget for defence, based on certain prediction. That budget was used up completely due to unforeseen circumstances. Allocating additional budget now is more of bureaucratic problem than economic. Even if they have tonnes of free money, if they do allot more, they would be questioned. No politician would want to put his hand in that bee's nest. Indian red tape is not a hurdle to be overlooked.