Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[ZABASHO]

I'm sure one day LCA will meet all the capabilities Gripen have right now.

thats depressing in itself mate.....

 

[the rafter]

Why would somebody compare Rafale with fighters that didn't met the minimum requirements? The only cost comparison that makes sense at this stage is Rafale vs EF and here Rafale came out as the best, that's why these so called objections were wrong anyway, but it was already denied that there are such objections:



India, Dassault enter final MMRCA negotiations

Sancho, its not a comparison of technical capabilities but life-cycle cost. Indian government wants to see if Dassault lied or quoted less price just to get Rafale selected!
If Dassault did not falsify or if the news was false, then great!

 

[sancho]

Sancho, its not a comparison of technical capabilities but life-cycle cost.

I know, but the point was that you can only compare the operational costs of those that were shortlisted, anything else doesn't make sense and that was done during the evaluation of L1. That means MoD already knows about the costs of Rafale as well as EF and like all reports even from France and Germany said, Rafale is cheaper to operate, which was confirmed by the Swiss evaluation too.

 

[the rafter]

I know, but the point was that you can only compare the operational costs of those that were shortlisted, anything else doesn't make sense and that was done during the evaluation of L1. That means MoD already knows about the costs of Rafale as well as EF and like all reports even from France and Germany said, Rafale is cheaper to operate, which was confirmed by the Swiss evaluation too.

I hope this answers the question:

An MoD body called the Contract Negotiating Committee (CNC) will now engage Dassault in beating down its price, grilling Dassault’s negotiators on the calculations that determined the final price of the Rafale, scanning the costs of labour and materials that go into the fighter. For example, the CNC will find out how much titanium goes into each aircraft and then check titanium prices on the London Metal Exchange. The CNC will also vet labour costs, determining the number of skilled workmen and engineers needed to build the Rafale and multiplying that with the respective labour costs (notoriously high in France). The aim will be to demonstrate to the Dassault negotiators that the Rafale can be built cheaper than the price they have quoted. CNC negotiations will also centre on the technologies that Dassault (and its sub-vendors, like Thales) will transfer to India and the modalities for doing so. The RfP mandates that the technology for the AESA radar (which Thales builds) is to be transferred to India. The CNC will verify how that technology, and others, would actually be transferred. Offsets are another minefield that Dassault must cross, ploughing back into Indian industry at least 50% of the estimated $15-17 billion contract value of this deal. Only after these issues are resolved will a contract be actually signed. Senior IAF officers believe this could take till late-2012.

Broadsword: The Rafale’s long flight to India

 

[sancho]

I hope this answers the question:

An MoD body called the Contract Negotiating Committee (CNC) will now engage Dassault in beating down its price,

Buddy, this is about the current price negotiations, not about the life cycle costs you or the earlier article was talking about. The current price negotiations are about production, ToT or maybe customisation costs.

 

[sancho]

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify

Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is confident that an accord to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes to India will cross all hurdles as the French company intensifies negotiations to clinch the first-ever export deal for the jet.

Dassault and India are now in final talks to conclude details of the contract, after the Rafale was given preference over the competing Eurofighter jet last month, Chief Executive Officer Charles Edelstenne said in an interview in Paris. Negotiations may wrap up by the end of the year, he said...

...“For 15 years, we’ve been saying the Rafale costs less than the Eurofighter,” Edelstenne said. “Now it’s the Indians who are saying it.”

Dassault will prevail against the Eurofighter in India because in every competition where the two jets have been in direct competition, the French model gained higher rankings, even if it ultimately didn’t win the final deal, the CEO said. ...

...The French company will gradually turn over the manufacturing of its plane for the Indian market to local businesses because that was a requirement India had set for all competitors, he said. Dassault will provide the assistance required to do that.

“Little by little, the whole plane will come to be produced in India within 10 years,” he said. “We are open to all transfers of technology, I don’t fear competition.”

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify - Bloomberg

 

[kingdurgaking]

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify - Bloomberg

The most important is ToT... lets see if we get engine tech.. AESA and SPECTRA

 

[Paan Singh]

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify - Bloomberg

“Little by little, the whole plane will come to be produced in India within 10 years,” he said. “We are open to all transfers of technology, I don’t fear competition.”

 

[sancho]

The most important is ToT... lets see if we get engine tech.. AESA and SPECTRA

Engine techs is not an issue, since they are offering even a co-development based on their upgraded M88-3 core. AESA full ToT + source codes were officially offered several times and shouldn't be an issue either. We also know that we can get HMS and IRST via Samtel and MICA ToT would be provided via Maitri SAM co-development, but the most important Rafale system is SPECTRA and I'm not sure how far ToT will go in that field.

Personally I think there could be some weapon licence productions too, the MICA deal for Mirage for example is still not confirmed by French sources, neither have the price or even the content. Also there was an RFI send out for a stand off weapon and the specs would fit Scalp / Storm Shadow. Not to forget that IAF informed themself reportedly about that weapon at MBDA UK after Libyan conflict and since they have chosen Rafale, they might have asked French MBDA or forces for infos as well.

In terms of ToT French industry and French government is clearly the most reliable partner for India, that's why so many co-developments or licence productions under ToT will be won by France. Scorpene subs, Jaguar fighters, Eurocopter helicopter, are other examples and recently there were news about Thales wining a competition for civil aviation radars too. I have no doubt that at the end we will see the EC Fennec and another Shakti engine for India as well and I still hope for the licence production of Mistral class LHDs.

As I often said, they are the perfect strategic partner for us, next to Russia, because they can provide us anything Russia can, are as reliable and independent too!

 

[Abingdonboy]

In hindsight the Rafale is clearly the way to go! I have no doubts they will be good partners to India in developing the Indian aerospace company, the MMRCA is a game hanger on that front no doubt. As a previous ACM said,with the French you will always get exactly what you pay for (he left out but should be included-unlike the Russians!).

 

[kingdurgaking]

Engine techs is not an issue, since they are offering even a co-development based on their upgraded M88-3 core. AESA full ToT + source codes were officially offered several times and shouldn't be an issue either. We also know that we can get HMS and IRST via Samtel and MICA ToT would be provided via Maitri SAM co-development, but the most important Rafale system is SPECTRA and I'm not sure how far ToT will go in that field.

Personally I think there could be some weapon licence productions too, the MICA deal for Mirage for example is still not confirmed by French sources, neither have the price or even the content. Also there was an RFI send out for a stand off weapon and the specs would fit Scalp / Storm Shadow. Not to forget that IAF informed themself reportedly about that weapon at MBDA UK after Libyan conflict and since they have chosen Rafale, they might have asked French MBDA or forces for infos as well.

In terms of ToT French industry and French government is clearly the most reliable partner for India, that's why so many co-developments or licence productions under ToT will be won by France. Scorpene subs, Jaguar fighters, Eurocopter helicopter, are other examples and recently there were news about Thales wining a competition for civil aviation radars too. I have no doubt that at the end we will see the EC Fennec and another Shakti engine for India as well and I still hope for the licence production of Mistral class LHDs.

As I often said, they are the perfect strategic partner for us, next to Russia, because they can provide us anything Russia can, are as reliable and independent too!

100% agreed.. no one is reliable than Russia and France for us... I hope we should get our hand on SPECTRA.. that is the most important next to Engine and AESA.. we are lacking only on these 3 areas atleast for Tejas..

 

[PEACEMAKER2010]

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify

Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is confident that an accord to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes to India will cross all hurdles as the French company intensifies negotiations to clinch the first-ever export deal for the jet.

Dassault and India are now in final talks to conclude details of the contract, after the Rafale was given preference over the competing Eurofighter jet last month, Chief Executive Officer Charles Edelstenne said in an interview in Paris. Negotiations may wrap up by the end of the year, he said.

Selling the Rafale to India would mark a major victory for Edelstenne, who has had to rely on France as the aircraft’s sole customer. The Indian backing for the $11 billion contract has boosted Dassault’s hopes it can also prevail in Brazil, and help raise production rates of the Rafale that are now hovering at the minimum of one a month, the CEO said.

“For 15 years, we’ve been saying the Rafale costs less than the Eurofighter,” Edelstenne said. “Now it’s the Indians who are saying it.”

Dassault will prevail against the Eurofighter in India because in every competition where the two jets have been in direct competition, the French model gained higher rankings, even if it ultimately didn’t win the final deal, the CEO said.

Edelstenne said Dassault can easily boost production to two or three Rafales a month or more if needed, depending on what other orders the company may win. Beyond Brazil and the United Arab Emirates, Dassault is also pitching the plane to other export prospects he said, including Malaysia.
Fighting Back

Dassault has already delivered 106 of 180 fighters ordered by France, which has said it will order 286 planes over the lifetime of the plane. Edelstenne said India’s naming Dassault as lowest-bidder would help generally export prospects .

British Prime Minister David Cameron has said he would keep fighting for the Eurofighter Typhoon, partly built by BAE Systems Plc (BA/), to get back into the contest. Louis Gallois, the CEO of European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co. (EAD), said yesterday the only way for his company to get back to into the contest is if talks between Dassault and the Indian side fall through.

Until India decided on the Rafale, Dassault had failed to win any export contracts for the aircraft, losing out in a half dozen competitions to countries including Singapore, South Korea, Morocco, the Netherlands, and Switzerland.

U.S. manufacturers beat Dassault in all those contests except in Switzerland, where Saab AB (SAABB)’s Gripen has been pre- selected. The company still hasn’t given up in Switzerland, Edelstenne said, citing a review of the decision process.
Long Relations

Dassault’s relations with India date back 60 years. India was the very first export customer for Dassault, ordering 71 Ouragans in June 1953, and India has purchased most Dassault models sold since. India replaced the Ouragans with Dassault’s Mystere IV A in 1957, procuring 104 in 1957 and using them in 1961 for air strikes against the Portuguese colony of Daman.

The French company will gradually turn over the manufacturing of its plane for the Indian market to local businesses because that was a requirement India had set for all competitors, he said. Dassault will provide the assistance required to do that.

“Little by little, the whole plane will come to be produced in India within 10 years,” he said. “We are open to all transfers of technology, I don’t fear competition.

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify - Bloomberg

 

[the rafter]

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/cities/hyderabad/rafale-aircraft-shunned-all-countries-708

Telugu Desam MP M.V. Mysoora Reddy, in his complaint dated February 27, 2012, had demanded an inquiry into the evaluation process that finalised the L-1 contractor (Dassault) for procurement of the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft without looking into their efficiency and other aspects. “The alleged manipulation of the evaluation process in picking the L-1 contractor, which resulted in a decision to procure 126 MMRCA (from Dassault), has raised serious apprehensions not only across the country but also worldwide. If a proper decision is not taken, the country's credibility will be at stake,” Dr Reddy wrote.

“Officials in the ministry of defence violated the evaluation process and arrived at (by manipulation) an incorrect decision with regard to the France-produced Rafale Aircraft as L-1,” he wrote. He stated, “I am also given to understand that the Rafale aircraft has not been sold to any country. Why should India buy a combat aircraft that no other country has purchased? In Libya, in the war against Gaddafi, the Rafale had failed in precision bombing and finally the Typhoon was inducted. The UAE too has rejected the Rafale.”

He demanded that the inquiry must be completed within 30 days, that those who manipulated the evaluation process be punished. In his reply, Mr Antony stated, “The ministry was asked to examine all the points raised by Dr Mysoora Reddy”

Antony tells MoD to probe rafale deal | The Asian Age

Defense minister A.K. Antony has ordered his ministry to probe allegations of irregularities and manipulation of the evaluation process while picking the French company Dassault for the purchase of 126 fighter aircraft worth about Rs. 50,000 crore.
India had picked Dassault’s Rafale over the Typhoon of EADS, an European consortium.
Mr Antony took the decision after receiving a complaint from TD Rajya Sabha member M.V. Mysoora Reddy. Replying to Dr Reddy, Mr Antony said he had asked the MoD to examine all the points raised in the complaint.
In his complaint dated February 27, 2012, Dr Reddy had demanded an enquiry into the evaluation process that finalised the L-1 contractor for procurement of the MMRCA without looking into their efficiency and other aspects.
“The alleged manipulation of the evaluation process in picking the L-1 contractor, which resulted in a decision to procure 126 MMRCA, has raised serious apprehensions not only across the country but also worldwide. If a proper decision is not taken, the country’s credibility will be at stake,” Dr Reddy wrote.

Eurofighter 'stands ready' to renegotiate MMRCA bid with India

The partner nations of the Eurofighter consortium "stand ready" to enter into further discussions with India regarding its selection of Dassault's Rafale over the Eurofighter Typhoon, according to UK Defence Minister Gerald Howarth.

IHS Jane's understands that a revised Typhoon bid has been submitted to India for its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement.

The bid's greatest hope of success would appear to rest on a more attractive offset package than Dassault's, given that India selected the Rafale because it offered the lowest price.

India's procurement is expected to be worth more than USD13.5 billion and Dassault will need to invest about half of the contract value in local defence sector offsets.

Per unit, the Typhoon bid is thought to have been more expensive than the Rafale, while operational costs would also have had a bearing on India's decision. IHS Jane's understands that Dassault's total package price was bid at about 15 per cent to 17 per cent less than that from Eurofighter and that the Rafale was about USD5 million cheaper than the Typhoon per aircraft.

Howarth, the minister for International Security Strategy, said during a parliamentary debate on 7 March that the Eurofighter consortium and its partner nations "stand ready to enter into further discussions with the Indian Government, should that be their wish".

Howarth highlighted the role played by EADS subsidiary Cassidian in the contest, adding: "In this case, the UK is not and never has been in the lead. The campaign in India has been led from the outset by Germany and EADS Cassidian, not by the UK and BAE Systems."

IHS Jane's has previously highlighted the potential benefits of a bid led by BAE Systems. Analysts have pointed to the long-standing historical ties between India and the UK and between BAE Systems and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the latter of which will build the majority of the aircraft in India.

Howarth's assertion that the Eurofighter consortium is ready to rebid for MMRCA follow his comments in February that Cassidian was formulating a "fresh price proposal" for the contest.

He added: "If the decision turned only on price, Cassidian will put in a revised price offer. The four nations [constituting the Eurofighter consortium of Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK] can produce a winning financial proposal, and I fully expect that Cassidian will be doing that.

"We believe that getting the best value for money would be in the best interests of the government of India, but it is not for us to suggest what New Delhi should do."

Howarth's comments were carried by India's Business Standard news service on 9 February and confirmed to IHS Jane's by the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD).

India's MoD announced on 31 January that Rafale had beaten Typhoon in the MMRCA contest to provide the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 126 aircraft: a decision that gives Rafale its first export order.

Dassault has entered final negotiations with India and an initial deal is expected to be signed around the start of April.

http://search.janes.com/Search/docu...http://search.janes.com/Search&Prod_Name=JDW&

 

[sancho]

had demanded an inquiry into the evaluation process that finalised the L-1 contractor...without looking into their efficiency and other aspects...In Libya, in the war against Gaddafi, the Rafale had failed in precision bombing and finally the Typhoon was inducted.

This "news"paper gets more and more hilarious!

The Janes article is interesting though:

Per unit, the Typhoon bid is thought to have been more expensive than the Rafale, while operational costs would also have had a bearing on India's decision. IHS Jane's understands that Dassault's total package price was bid at about 15 per cent to 17 per cent less than that from Eurofighter and that the Rafale was about USD5 million cheaper than the Typhoon per aircraft.

It was clear that the EF partners would reduce the unit cost by far from the normal price, because these are mainly their T3B orders, which they simply divert to India. On the other side, the part about the package price confirms reports from France as well.

 

[the rafter]

This "news"paper gets more and more hilarious!

Indeed that statement is hilarious, but, an inquiry could mean further delays in contract negotiations.
I also hate the leverage of financial aid UK is trying to use to put pressure on India for the MMRCA deal.