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A very interesting article about the Rafale!

Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall

Some important points:

Sancho,the above post surely indicates that the rafael is a grt package at offer. But as the competion is stiffening and all the competitors r losening up & offering more to ensure an edge over the other,its becoming difficult to predict the best option.Lets wait for the trials.......r.&.p.
 
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Sancho,the above post surely indicates that the rafael is a grt package at offer.But as the competion is stiffening and all the competitors r losening up & offering more to ensure an edge over the other,its deficult to predict the best option.Lets wait for the trials.......r.&.p.
Sure the trials will show how good the fighters really are, but the article only confirmed my opinon, that the Rafale is the best aircraft for us!
The capability of doing a2g missions without a single loss through ground targets, carrying nuclear payloads, installing Kaveri engine, very good defense aids, situational awareness, a possibility for our aircraft carriers, using of French, European and US weapons, good performance in a2a and a2g, the offer of full ToT, radar source codes , no restrictions and the good experiences we had with France and Mirage 2k, are advantages that nearly no other contender can offer in this combined way!
If the decision is not political, I don't see how we can't take the Rafale to serve between LCA and MKI.
 
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Sure the trials will show how good the fighters really are, but the article only confirmed my opinon, that the Rafale is the best aircraft for us!
The capability of doing a2g missions without a single loss through ground targets, carrying nuclear payloads, installing Kaveri engine, very good defense aids, situational awareness, a possibility for our aircraft carriers, using of French, European and US weapons, good performance in a2a and a2g, the offer of full ToT, radar source codes , no restrictions and the good experiences we had with France and Mirage 2k, are advantages that nearly no other contender can offer in this combined way!
If the decision is not political, I don't see how we can't take the Rafale to serve between LCA and MKI.

The only a.c that can b truly said to b operational ready is rafael and f-18.But in our nation its the political decision that will overshadow the stratigic aspect.:undecided:
 
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However, Quentin Davies, the U.K. minister for defense equipment and support, signaled London may not participate in Tranche 3B...
...The first Tranche 3A aircraft is to be delivered in early 2013. The first Tranche 3B aircraft would arrive in 2016 and production would cease in 2017, although that timeline is likely to be extended....
...Moreover, a study to fit an active electronically scanned array radar on the fighter is due to be completed this year. That will help define a suitable upgrade roadmap. Although Casolini says “the technology is mature,” he suggests that fielding such a radar before 2013 would be difficult.
That sadly means more delays and funding problems, a fully developed EF only by 2016, or later, first AESA only by 2013 and who knows when exports countries will get them?
Seems like they could be out of the competition as fast as in Singapore and still for the same reasons (less developed, too many delays).
 
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Eurofighter sweetens its India offer

With the four-nation Eurofighter consortium facing the uncomfortable reality of dwindling orders at home, India’s tender for 126 medium fighters, worth some $11 billion, is now crucial. So, Eurofighter has reworked some of its most fundamental tenets and structures, to appear more appealing to India.Next Friday, Eurofighter boss Bernhard Gerwert will fly into Delhi to offer a new sweetener to the ministry of defence: if India chooses the Eurofighter, it can become a full-fledged manufacturing partner, the first “outsider” to crack a tightly-interwoven four-country manufacturing chain.The consortium that developed the Eurofighter — comprising the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain — had decided on a unique manufacturing structure. Each part of the Eurofighter is manufactured in a different country; e.g. the right wing is made in Spain, the left wing in Italy. After that, all four partners assemble their own aircraft, bringing the parts together from the plants where they are manufactured.


This EU-style compromise distributed manufacturing jobs (100,000 jobs in 400 companies) amongst the four partners, while creating a mutual dependency.

If India becomes the fifth Eurofighter partner, it will manufacture complete assemblies — say, as a random example, the front fuselage and tail fins — for every new Eurofighter across the world. That will include fighters for the air forces of the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy, Austria and Saudi Arabia. In addition, Switzerland, Japan, Romania, Greece and Turkey, which are currently evaluating the Eurofighter, could also be on that list.

Kicking off its India campaign in early 2008, Eurofighter had suggested that India could play a major role in the programme, even using the word, “partnership”. But that was never elaborated; only now will India unambiguously be offered a share of the manufacture. All four European partners have agreed to forgo a part of their work share to bring India in.

An order like India’s is badly needed. Earlier this year, a budget-strapped British Ministry of Defence (MoD) tried to pull out of buying its contracted share of 88 fighters from the latest batch (called Tranche 3). Eventually the UK honoured its commitments only because default would have cost London billions of Euros in penalties. The other Eurofighter partners are equally cash-strapped; all have jointly agreed to cut back on their orders for now.

In contrast to the gloom in Europe, the future in India looks rosy. EADS — Eurofighter’s major shareholder — has enjoyed notable success in penetrating the Indian market. Early this year, EADS signed a $20 million contract to help resolve persistent niggles in India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. US companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin were ruled out of that bid by Washington’s unwillingness to grant permissions (called Technical Assistance Agreements). EADS points to the LCA consultancy as a major victory that highlighted the comparative ease of doing high-tech business with Europe.


Buoyed by the LCA consultancy, EADS is now focusing on the $600 million tender — floated by the MoD on 17 July — for supplying 99 fighter engines for India’s single-engine LCA. Eurojet, an EADS subsidiary, has offered EJ200 engines, which power the twin-engine Eurofighter. The rival engine is the General Electric GE-414, which powers Eurofighter’s big rival, the twin-engine Boeing F/A-18. Getting the engine selected, both rivals believe, is a sure path towards getting the fighter selected as well.

ASIAN DEFENCE: Eurofighter sweetens its India offer
 
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F-18s, F-16s racing to reach Bangalore for trials - Bangalore - City - NEWS - The Times of India

F-18s and F-16s. The US fighter aircraft are in a neck and neck race to reach Bangalore for commencement of test trials by the IAF. The
trials, to begin in the next three weeks, are a matter of pride for Bangalore as it is one among three locations selected, the other two being Leh and Jaisalmer. IAF will purchase 126 new fighter aircraft.

Both aircraft had come in as recently as October 2008 for Aero India and were slugging it out even then for public attention. Stationed side by side, the aircraft competed in the sorties they flew and in the access they lent to the public, aerospace experts and media.

As things stand, Boeing's F-18 will fly into Bangalore ahead of the F-16IN for the trials. The F-18 will be the super hornet version, favourite of the US Navy. The F/A-18E is a one-seater, while the F/A-18F is a two-seater. In the US, the super hornet production is expected to continue through 2015.Manufactured by Boeing IDS, the super hornets are aircraft designed with just a flip of the switch to fly both air-to-air missions (fighter) and air-to-ground missions (attack).

While the display of its frontline fighter is itself a statement about changing Indo-US relations, Boeing is upbeat about long-term R&D collaboration and technology transfer projects, unthinkable even a year ago. "We do have long-term plans. We are looking at research in breakthrough technology with the premier scientific institution in the country, the IISc. We will also look at defence R&D," Chris Chadwick, vice-president, Global Strike Systems, Boeing IDS, told TOI.

The F-16s from Lockheed Martin will be the IN version said to be the latest in the F-16 stables. Lockheed is flying in a specialized pilot and flight engineer for demos. "A cockpit simulator is being brought for familiarization with electronics and overall atmosphere of the F-16 cockpit," Lockheed representatives told TOI.

The latest version of the F-16 incorporates the advanced avionics, stealth and other critical systems of our F-22 and the F-35 jets, the only two fifth generation fighters currently flying. Lockheed believes F-16 is the fastest path for the IAF to the fifth-generation fighter. India and Russia are currently engaged in joint design of a fifth generation fighter but its production is at least a decade away.
The IAF needs new jets to replace its fast-depleting fleet of Soviet-era MiG-series jets.
 
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The latest version of the F-16 incorporates the advanced avionics, stealth and other critical systems of our F-22 and the F-35 jets, the only two fifth generation fighters currently flying. Lockheed believes F-16 is the fastest path for the IAF to the fifth-generation fighter. India and Russia are currently engaged in joint design of a fifth generation fighter but its production is at least a decade away.
The IAF needs new jets to replace its fast-depleting fleet of Soviet-era MiG-series jets.
I didn't saw a internal weapon bay, or a stealthy designed airframe on the F16s that attend AI 09 and what other critical systems of F22 and F35 should it have??? Only the radar could have some techs related to F35 radar and we definitely won't get ToT of it.
 
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Different competition, but the requirements and offers seems to be similar, so the resutlt there could be also interesting for us.

US offers technology to win Brazil fighter deal: officials
Accompanied in Brasilia by President Barack Obama's national security advisor, Jim Jones, they said the technology transfer was part of a final gambit to try to persuade Brazil's air force to buy 36 new combat aircraft...
...Carter said: "We want to have a technology relationship with Brazil that gets deeper and deeper with the time. This is just the first step."

The offer appeared an attempt to blunt competing bids from France's Dassault, which was putting forward its advanced Rafale fighter, and Sweden's Saab, which was proposing its yet-to-be-built Gripen NG.

The Rafale, which has stealth-like technology and cutting-edge cockpit interfaces and threat detection, was seen as Brazil's favored choice, largely because France was offering full transfer of technology -- the key demand in the tender.

Saab, too, has promised to share knowhow with Brazil -- even though the Gripen's engines were US-designed and therefore subject to US foreign military sales authorization.

It was unclear what technology the United States was prepared to share from the F/A-18, which was the oldest model aircraft on offer, having been flying since 1980.

AFP: US offers technology to win Brazil fighter deal: officials
 
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Race Begins Next Week for $12B India Warjet Deal

NEW DELHI - India will start fighter jet trials :chilli:next week :chilli:as the world's six top aerospace giants vie for a $12 billion military contract, an official said Aug. 7.

The trials for what will be the world's most lucrative fighter contract in more than a decade will begin in Bangalore, India's space research and aeronautical industry hub.
The assessment is due to continue for almost a year before New Delhi makes its choice from the six companies, the official said.

Boeing will be the first to take part when it displays its F/A-18 "Superhornet," the official said, adding that a team of U.S.-based aviation experts would be present in the southern city for the trials.

Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Europe's EADS will be among the other five firms descending on Bangalore.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the precise date for the start of trials will depend on weather conditions.

India is on a spending spree to update its largely Soviet-era weapons system and is looking at buying 126 fighter jets.

After Boeing, Lockheed Martin is next in line to showcase its F-16 to the technology-hungry Indian Air Force, the official said.

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) will offer its Typhoon Eurofighter, while Russia is seeking to sell the MiG-35 and MiG-29.

French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale aircraft as a contender.

In April, India said it would not buy the Rafale because it was too expensive. But within weeks, New Delhi said, without elaborating, the French firm had re-joined the race.

The line-up is completed by Gripen, part of Sweden's Saab.

Industry sources have said Lockheed Martin and Boeing have emerged as front-runners.
 
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Posted: Mon, Aug 10 2009. 11:30 PM IST

Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, EADS Defence and Security, the largest stock holder in the Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the five aircrafts going to flight trials this year, talks to Mint​

Anil Padmanabhan and Rahul Chandran

New Delhi: One of the largest defence purchases in recent times, the 126 aircraft purchase order from the Indian Air Force, is reaching the final stages of the a long drawn out tender process, with flight trials of the five aircraft set to start this month. Mint’s Anil Padmanabhan and Rahul Chandran spoke to Bernhard Gerwert, chief executive officer of military air systems, EADS Defence and Security, the largest stock holder in the Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the five aircrafts going to flight trials this year, when he was in New Delhi. Edited Excerpts:

I saw some reports saying that the Eurofighter is willing to sweeten the deal in the Indian context, and offer a manufacturing facility. True?

The reason of my visit here is a little bit broader than just to make a statement regarding what we are doing here. The main reason why I am here in the last few days is to get a feeling for where we are in the campaign and that is why I spent three days here. On the one side of course, to have the discussion with my own people, directly placed here in Delhi and Bangalore, but as well to have a lot of discussions with the customer, feeling where we are in this campaign because you have to take into account the next phase: We have to go into flight trials. And to go for flight trials is a very expensive journey. Coming to India with two, three fighters, doing the flight trials in Europe and before doing so, I’d like to get a little grip on where we are. And I have to say, I have a good feeling.

And what made you get a good feeling? Is it something you offered?

I could not offer something now in addition to what we already offered. We submitted our bid in April last year. And the first target was to be invited for the flight trials and now we are invited.

You can see that as a huge success but all the other competitors have been successful as well. So it is by far not enough. But we talked a lot about what is the next phase. What is the outcome of the flight trials. How the flight trials would be evaluated and so on.

I strongly believe, due to the discussions I had the last two days, that the customer and the decisive people are fully aware that the evaluation of such a mission, is a huge challenge. Because they have to take into account very different dimensions, not only performance of an aircraft but the performance of our bid and that is a challenge of course. They have to judge the performance of the aircraft, they have to evaluate the mission capabilities of the aircraft, they have to take into account the technology of such an aircraft and not forget they must be very cautious about what the customer really needs and what the customer wants.

Finally, it is an issue of national security. It’s the security of this country and of the soldiers of this country. And all these dimensions we discussed with people in the last few days and I have a feeling that a lot of people here understand these dimensions. So it’s not just technical evaluations and tick in the boxes.

The request for technology transfer, you can see that in completely different dimensions. For instance, look at the strategic partnership, which we offer to the Indian customer and the Indian industry. EADS Defence & Security just launched a joint venture with Larsen & Toubro. What are we planning to do? We will transfer technology from Germany to India. We will transfer workload from Germany to India. The products which will be produced in the first step of this joint venture are not related to the Eurofighter. However, we can use this technology later for the Eurofighter.

Another dimension is the fact that we have signed the support contract for the LCA. It’s not only that we are doing the support for the LCA. We are also hiring engineers in India and we will employ these engineers in our EADS/Airbus engineering center in Bangalore. What will happen? We will transfer a kind of technology or knowledge to Bangalore. We will employ, in the next two years, roughly 200 engineers in this engineering centre that is related to the defence aerospace business. In reality, we will shift workload from Germany to India in the area of avionics.

What is behind this? We prepare ourselves and we prepare the Indian industry that they are already prepared in a very early stage to absorb the needed technology for the Eurofighter. Why is that so important? We are now coming to the partnership. Look at the aircraft with a lifecycle of 30 years, 40 years, 50 years which has started its life a few years ago. Then you also have upgrades for the next 20-30 years and then you will have additional capability enhancements.

So you are differentiating between the partnership you have in India and the existing partnerships in Europe with other member countries?

Yes. It must be different because I would like to point out that India has the great opportunity to become our industrial partner. However, it cannot be that we say “Okay. India could become a fifth partner and then we divide everything through five instead of four.” Of course this is not possible, let us be clear among ourselves.

The presence of other European nations like France’s Rafale which is also bidding. You have Airbus where you are collaborators and you have the Eurofighter where you are competitors. Does that affect in any way?

No.Rafale is a competitor for Eurofighter and that is the case in India and that is the case in other countries as well. Rafale—the company Dassault—is not a partner of the Eurofighter programme, so it’s a competitor like other competitors as well.

The Americans have the same. They have Lockheed and then Boeing.

I believe the UK has cut back its orders from 88 aircraft to 40?

No. Maybe you are aware that the Eurofighter programme between the four nations was a so-called umbrella contract of 620 aircraft. We signed this contract of 620 aircraft for the four nations in 1998. This contract is split into slices - Tranche 1, Tranche 2 and Tranche 3. Now we come to Tranche 3. We split Tranche 3 with 236 aircraft due to financial problems of one or the other country, into so-called Tranche 3A and Tranche 3B. The full number of Tranche 3 for the UK is 88 aircraft and for Germany 68. In Tranche 3A, the UK is getting 40 aircraft and Germany 31aircraft. The rest will be negotiated later in Tranche 3B. That is what we have agreed. Therefore the umbrella contract of 620 aircraft for the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy is still valid.

The weather conditions in India are very different from Europe. So how does the Eurofighter stack up in these peculiar weather conditions?

The best answer is that we sold 72 Eurofighter to Saudi Arabia. And if you look into the weather conditions in Saudi Arabia, are they so different to India? On the heat, I don’t think so. Maybe it’s even more hot in Saudi Arabia. The other issue is the height. I am not afraid of that at all. I am quite sure, there is not any issue regarding the performance of the Eurofighter.

Looking at the official reports of the exercises that have been done by the four European air forces in exercises with other air forces, in all cases that I know in the last two years, the Eurofighter was the winner. All other aircraft were the losers. They beat everything.

Do you get the feeling that all other things being equal, considerations other than just the quality of the aircraft may come into the equation?

You cannot just take the product, take a list and tick in the boxes. For such decisions, what kind of mission, what kind of threat, what does it mean regarding independence, what does it mean regarding reliability, so many topics must be taken into consideration. And I have a feeling that is understood. And to be honest, if I wouldn’t have the feeling that it is understood, I would have this nice cup of coffee and go home and would not spent millions of dollars for the flight trials.

The confidence, which I am getting, is mostly because I am getting a lot of questions. When you are getting more and more intelligent questions, you will say: ‘Hey, these guys know what they are doing.’

We are sometimes criticized that Eurofighter is not produced by one company but of a consortium. Different companies are involved, even companies which are competitors. Is that good or is that bad? If you talk about the involvement of several companies, I can assure you that we are used to work in international cooperation. What’s the difference, if we do it now with four companies or five or six? Already today, we are manufacturing one wing in Italy and the other in Spain and we assemble it together in Germany. We are used to work in international partnerships and India is invited to join us
 
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i wish india chooses typhoon. No matter what other jet fighters are the typhoon the best. Even F-22 pilot flown Typhoon and said its big similar to F-22. He said Typhoon 2nd best jet fighter after F-22. India should pick typhoon. Doesnt matter whats the cost. Typhoon would chill the spine of enemy. i wish india picks typhoon. My 2nd pick would be french rafael. 3rd would be russian mig-35.
 
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Any idea when they'll make their choice?

I hope its this year, we need to upgrade our fleet ASAP.
 
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12 Aug 2009, 07:30 HRS IST
STAFF WRITER 20:56 HRS IST

New Delhi, Aug 11 (PTI) Ahead of the flight trials of six contenders for India's USD 10-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract this month, strategic considerations may influence government's final decision, Indian Air Force (IAF) sources said here today.

"Strategic issues may influence the decision as the Cabinet Committee on Security will take a final call based on political and strategic considerations. The winner of the 126 combat aircraft contract need not necessarily be the lowest bidder," senior IAF officials said.

They were answering to a question if bitter past experiences with Russia on spare supplies and US over technology denials would be taken into consideration before the mother of all defence deals was awarded.
 
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i wish india chooses typhoon. No matter what other jet fighters are the typhoon the best. Even F-22 pilot flown Typhoon and said its big similar to F-22. He said Typhoon 2nd best jet fighter after F-22. India should pick typhoon. Doesnt matter whats the cost. Typhoon would chill the spine of enemy. i wish india picks typhoon. My 2nd pick would be french rafael. 3rd would be russian mig-35.
Two things you should keep in mind mate:

1. What capabilities makes F22 and EF the best (and are also dominant at Mig 35)?

Those fighters are very maneuverable with high t/w ratios, canards , or TVC. Have longe range radars, good weapons for a2a combats and combined with stealth, or low RCS they are clearly among the best air superiority fighters!
But except of stealth, or low RCS the Su 30 MKI offers the same capabilities and if the reports of MKI upg are true, that disadvantage will be reduced. Also don't forget that we have a 5. gen fighter under development, that should offer all those capabilities.
So if we already have a comparable aircraft and will get another one which will be clearly better than EF, or Mig 35, do we really need one of these?


2. What capabilities does IAF need?

We know that around 150 Mig 21 will be phased out in the next 2 years (most likely the oldest and not upgraded which are in active service now so Bis and M/MF), also all not upgraded Mig 27.

Bharat Rakshak :: Indian Air Force - Aircraft Fleet Strength

Ground Attack
MiG-27 UPG... 32 4
MiG-27 ML...56 7
MiG-21 M/MF...72 9
Jaguar IS... 80 10
Jaguar IM... 10 2

Total for Ground Attack 250 32

So if half of the ground attack fighters will be phased out and new incoming fighters like LCA and FGFA only have some ground attack capabilities, shouldn't at least MMRCA have a focus on that?


If you take that all to account + that EF a2g capabilities are still only under development and Mig 35 can't do anything that MKI already couldn't do better, do you still think we should pic them?

IMO it will end up between Rafale and F18SH, with Rafale possibly the choice of IAF and F18SH possibly the choice of the government.
 
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