Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Thundersword]

So much for the rampant rumours (well, rampant throughout France anyway) that the UAE's long-delayed fighter contract was a done-deal for the Rafale.

Everything we know about the United Arab Emirates fighter modernisation plans have turned upside down within the first 24h of the Dubai Air Show.

Quick summary: Dassault Rafale still in, Saab Gripen still out, Eurofighter Typhoon made a surprise entrance, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 is now lurking and Boeing throws F-15 Silent Eagle into the mix.

And the UAE Air Force, meanwhile, confirmed it wants to buy a "next generation fighter" after 2018, when the Lockheed F-35 is, possibly, the only fighter of that general description outside of China and Russia still in production.

How did we get here?

The Rafale has been on the UAE's shopping list since the mid-1990s, but somehow the deal keeps sliding to the right -- and now risks evaporating entirely.

Riad Kahwaji, chief executive officer of the Institute for Near East and Gulf Military Analysis (INEGMA), told The DEW Line that latest manoeuvres are a clear signal: the UAE air force thinks France's price for the Rafale is too high. Major fighter deals are never immune from politics, but this deal is purely political. The UAE is buying the Rafale to balance its reliance on US-made weapons, including its fleet of 80 Lockheed F-16 Block 60s. Perhaps thinking the UAE has no other options, Dassault may have submitted a monopolistic price, Kahwaji said.

Even after negotiating exclusively with France for more than three years, the UAE has just re-opened the competition. The DEW Line's colleague, Craig Hoyle, broke the story on Flightglobal yesterday that the UAE issued a request for proposals to the Typhoon, setting up a second competition between the same pair of fighters vying for India's medium multi-role aircraft (MMRCA).

But the toll of the prolonged negotiations could be even greater for the Rafale. According to Kahwaji, who is well connected in Abu Dhabi, the UAE has already informed Dassault that the deal has been reduced from 60 fighters, with the balance shifted to a follow-on order of some number of F-16 Block 60s. Northrop Grumman, which supplies the APG-80 agile beam radar for the Block 60, confirmed this strategy today. Northrop told my colleague Greg Waldron that the UAE is considering a follow-on order for the Block 60. We asked Lockheed to confirm, but company officials declined.

That brings us to the last wrinkle in the competition exposed during the last few hours. Boeing now confirms that the UAE Air Force asked the US government in August or September for classified briefings on the capabilities of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-15E. The Eurofighter consortium might reply: So what? The UAE asked the UK government to provide a similar briefing on the Typhoon in October, and it was the only fighter that received an RfP in the last two weeks.

Boeing, however, thinks the UAE may have other ideas for the Super Hornet or Silent Eagle. After all, if the UAE is seeking to balance its reliance on US-made fighters, shifting the final assembly line from Fort Worth, Texas, to St. Louis, Missouri, is not going to do them any favours. Instead, Boeing believes the UAE may be thinking more about the "next generation fighter" requirement.

Lockheed, however, doesn't seem worried. The F-35 is still barred by US export control officials for being sold or even marketed to the UAE, but that restriction will not last forever. Pressed to explain why he still cannot show the UAE so much as a desk model of the F-35, Lockheed vice president of business development replied: "It's coming, it's coming."

All of this can be little consolation to the fighter made in Merignac, France. No one doubts the French have a world-class fighter, but their negotiators have talked their way out of certain victory before. Allowing the UAE sale to slip away may not be devastating to the Rafale, with Brazil, India, Kuwait and Switzerland still in talks with the French. But such a loss would surely be long remembered in the industry as yet another can't-miss deal that only the French could mess up.
source: #DXB11: Certain victory for Rafale turns uncertain - The DEW Line

 

[Hulk]

Hope we do not get the anticlimax in India too.

 

[Hulk]

Eurofighter - Nothing Comes Close HD - YouTube

What about typhoon? Are we sure on Rafale?

 

[Thundersword]

Everyone likes to have something juicy to put on the front page of their show daily so what better than when an announcement everyone thought might be made at the Dubai air show is turned on its head?

Instead of announcing that they were ready to sign the contract for up to 60 Rafales with France's Dassault Aviation, the United Arab Emirates has issued the Eurofighter consortium with a request for proposals after an October 17 UK briefing requested by the UAE.

This seems a little strange given that they are looking for a multi-role aircraft and that, today at least, the Eurofighter's air-to-ground capacities are more than limited (a 1,000 pound free-fall bomb, a Paveway 2 laser-guided 1,000 pound bomb and an E-Paveway 2 dual mode (GPS/laser) 1,000 pound bomb and this only on the British variant of the aircraft).

The announcement came as a "surprise" British officials tell Ares but they seem optimistic that the aircraft has a good chance because of the industrial benefits hat could be provided to the UAE. Presumably like the industrial benefits that Saudi Arabia was supposed to benefit from?

The officials also say that in a year's time the Eurofighter will have the air-to-surface capabilities it is now lacking. True. But this capacity is not combat proven. The Rafale's are.

French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet, who was at the opening day of the show today, says "everyone is playing the role they're meant to," adding that "we are in the final stages of very advanced negotiations" and that he remained optimistic that a contract would be signed before the end of this year.

And UAE officials? They are saying nothing. But it seems clear that this is a ploy to bring the price down. It seems far-fetched to let negotiations get to within a hair-breadth of signature after three years of discussion and then decide that "let's have a competition after all."

And before you ask: I'm not pro-one aircraft and anti another. It's just that the move doesn't seem to make any sense and the issues I've noted down here just jump out at you.

Meanwhile both aircraft were performing demonstration flights. Here's a just-about focussed one of the Rafale I managed to shoot. I'll try and get an in-focus one of the Eurofigher tomorrow!

 

[Thundersword]

AIRSHOW-France positive on UAE Rafale deal despite competition

Nov 14 (Reuters) - The United Arab Emirates' request for technical details on the Typhoon combat jet built by European arms consortium Eurofighter has not shaken France's confidence in securing a deal to sell the Gulf state more than French 60 Rafale warplanes, the French air chief told Reuters on Monday.

"Getting information on different systems is fine," General Jean-Paul Palomeros said on Sunday on the sidelines of the Dubai Air Show. "I know that the Emirates air force is very keen with Rafale, that's for sure because they told me that they like the aircraft, they know how operational it is."

The European arms consortium Eurofighter briefed UAE officials last month on the Typhoon combat jet, in a surprise overture likely to disappoint France as it tries to finalise a sale of Dassault's Rafale at the Dubai Air Show this week.

In 2010, the UAE was reported to have requested technical details on Boeing F/A-18 war plane as well.

France is struggling to secure a foreign buyer for the aircraft, which is more developed than fourth generation combat aircraft but lags behind fifth generation multi-role fighters such as Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II.

The United Arab Emirates has pressed for the aircraft's engines to be upgraded with extra thrust and for better radar, industry sources have said, but Palomeros said UAE officials are satisfied with the plane.

"In terms of operational requirements, our friends in the Emirates air force are very happy," Palomeros said.

He said the Rafale was the first aircraft to engage in NATO operations in Libya that helped topple Muammar Gaddafi.

Experts following the deal said that it was possible that the two countries are trapped in a bargaining loop.

French officials have made several positive statements about the prospects of signing a deal, but UAE officials have remained tight-lipped.

But the UAE's former air force chief, Major General Khaled al-Buainnain, said he believed the current discussions were more about the cost of the aircraft rather than technical details.

"There's no required enhancements," al-Buainnain said on Saturday. "The UAE has always special requirements. I think the enhancement issue is over, the issue is now financial and contractual. This is a massive project that needs deliberate study."

General Faouzi Abou Farhat, a former senior official of Lebanon's air force, said the Rafale was more expensive than similar warplanes available for sale such at the Typhoon and F-16.

"The issue is they can't agree on a price," he said.

The UAE said in 2008 it was in negotiations with France to buy at least 60 Rafale warplanes to replace its fleet of Mirage-2000-9 warplanes, in a deal that could be worth 10 billion euros, according to experts.
This kinda reminds me of how the MMRCA tender came into place...... Is another MMRCA emerging???

 

[Vibs]

The reason why it will take 6 weeks to determine the lowest bidder.
The acquisitions manager read out in broad terms the financial terms offered by the two sides. As the executives took notes furiously, it dawned that the formulae for pricing the aircraft presented by each was so complicated that it would take weeks to determine the values.

“There is no such thing as a sticker price,” said one officer. “You don’t buy aircraft like oranges, by the kilo.”

He explained why it could take up to six weeks – may be till the end of December -- to determine the lowest bidder. “It’s a price for the whole package,” he said.

For the first 10 to 12 days, Air Headquarters expects there will be much back-and-forth between the IAF and the companies as clarifications are sought. The meeting determined that the financial bids would be tied to the price of the dollar quoted by State Bank of India’s Parliament Street branch on November 4.

The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8. M1 is the “unit flyaway cost”, the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased “off the shelf”.

M2 asks for the lifecycle costs – the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours – of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).

M3 is “operational cost”. M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a “mean time between failures” (MTBF), and lubricants.

M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade. M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence. M8 is the computation of total costs.

full article here
Fighter bid like no other

 

[Thundersword]

Now Dassault Filches Gripen's Line, Declares Rafale's 'Independence'

If the gloves weren't off all along, they are now. Just weeks ahead of a final decision on the MMRCA competition, Dassault, which doesn't usually bother with adaptive advertising, has a slew of brand new print ads that tell you a great deal about what they're seeing as the deciding factor in the Indian government's final decision. First off, it must be said, they've pinched the whole "independence" theme from Saab, which pitched its Gripen as the "independent choice" or "choice of independence" ever since it entered the multi-billion dollar competition (and after it was eliminated).

The advert above, appearing in show dailies at the ongoing Dubai Air Show, makes Dassault's so far implicit view of things, pretty plain. "When a single country makes your aircraft from nose to tail, you know what you're getting into. Rafale is not subject to multinational controls.", the copy begins -- a direct swipe at the Typhoon's four-nation heritage. It's the elegance of the business that EADS Cassidian trumpets this very multi-nation backing as a potential coup de grâce in the final stretch. With the commercial offers of both firms understood to be far less disparate than many expected, both firms clearly believe other considerations will come into play. And let's not miss the fact that both have made it utterly plain with their new adverts and statements that they believe, ultimately, in the political decision.

 

[Thundersword]

whatz this????? I'm curious though.... why was f-15 never offered to India???

DUBAI: Boeing throws F-15, F/A-18 into UAE fighter modernisation mix
A top Boeing executive has added a new piece to the UAE's fighter modernisation puzzle, saying that the US government has delivered classified briefings about the capabilities of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the F-15E Strike Eagle.

Neither aircraft has been mentioned in the past as among the options for replacing the UAE air force's fleet of Dassault Mirage 2000-9s. The UAE has been negotiating with France for the Dassault Rafale since 2008, and within the last two weeks asked the Eurofighter Typhoon to submit a rival bid.

But UAE officials are still casting an even wider net as they consider all of their fighter modernisation requirements, said Jeff Kohler, Boeing vice-president of military business development.

In August or September, the UAE formally requested classified briefings on the F-15 and F/A-18, Kohler said, which the US government obliged.

The briefings were not followed by the issuing of a request for proposals from Boeing, as Eurofighter has received. However, Kohler believes the UAE's interests in the Boeing fighters may be aimed at long-term requirements.

On 12 November, the UAE air force announced plans to acquire a "next generation fighter" in the 2018-2025 timeframe.

The Lockheed Martin F-35 joint strike fighter (JSF) has been previously named by the UAE as a potential acquisition target. But briefing requests may indicate that the F/A-18E/F and the F-15 Silent Eagle are also in the discussion, Kohler said. With the exception of all-aspect very low observability, or stealth, the F-15SE and F/A-18E/F international roadmap variant share many of the same sensor, avionics and weapons capabilities with the F-35.

"I think [UAE officials] would be interested, depending on exactly what they want," Kohler said.

 

[Hulk]

Question on Rafale.
By looking at the videos from Naked eyes, it appears that Rafale does not have good accelaration, when I look at ET in comparision. Will it be a disadvantage in case we use it as a interceptor?

 

[Vibs]

Question on Rafale.
By looking at the videos from Naked eyes, it appears that Rafale does not have good accelaration, when I look at ET in comparision. Will it be a disadvantage in case we use it as a interceptor?

Rafale is not to be used as an interceptor. Naked eye is never a good way to judge acceleration.

Interceptors are normally lesser advanced and cheaper fighters in the arsenal of an airforce. Possible to deploy in large numbers and expendable.

 

[dbc]

Question on Rafale.
By looking at the videos from Naked eyes, it appears that Rafale does not have good accelaration, when I look at ET in comparision. Will it be a disadvantage in case we use it as a interceptor?

Acceleration and throttle response is extremely important, it allows the pilot to quickly maneuver into an advantegeous position while lining up a surface strike,in a close in fight or while evading inbound missiles. The German MiG-29's have a higher top speed but USN Hornets and USAF F-16's easily beat the German MiGs in a drag race from 180 Knots to 500 Knots, superior acceleration proved decisive in BFM engagements with the Germans. No one disputes the Typhoon is a better interceptor, its primary role when the fighter was conceived was to protect western Europe from Soviet bombers but the importance of dash speed and the role of interceptors has diminished with improvements in long range detection and BVR missiles.

 

[SpArK]

EF @ DBX 2011

 

[sudhir007]

Asia Sentinel - India fighter jet deal countdown

India has initiated the final phase of what will be one of its biggest defense deals ever...

The US$11 billion contract to buy 126 multi-role combat aircrafts (MRCAs) forms a crucial cog in the country’s attempts to modernize its military capabilities.

Earlier this month the federal defense ministry began review of competing bids of the remaining two European competitors in the fray --- Eurofighter’s Typhoon and French Dassault’s Rafale, both aircrafts used successfully by NATO as part of its recent air campaign in Libya.

New Delhi has said that it will settle for one MRCA platform, leaving the loser saddled with substantial lobbying expense, high expectations but nothing in hand.

The final choice is expected to be made by the end of next month, though the Indian government could take a bit more time to announce the deal. Given the money already allotted in the annual budget for the contract, the decision should, however, be no later than March 2012, when the financial year ends.

Leaving such a large capital outlay unutilized opens the charge of delay and indecision on New Delhi that it would prefer to avoid.

The bidders have been trimmed to Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoon, while the Russian MiG-35, Swedish Saab Gripen, the American Boeing F/A-18 E/F and the Lockheed Martin F-16 combat jets have been rejected on ``technical and operational’’ grounds.

Even though an unhappy America has been pushing New Delhi to re-consider its aircrafts, it is unlikely that such as process is going to happen.

India has been looking to build a fighter jet fleet that will comprise the MRCAs to replace the crash prone MiG-21 interceptors and fit between the more powerful long range Sukhoi-30 and the lower-end indigenous Tejas LCA lightweight fighters.

In a comment, the Jane’s Defense Weekly said: ``with a potential contract price of $9 billion to $14 billion, this is the single biggest competition in the global defense aviation industry at the moment and offers both bidders a much-needed opportunity in a major market.’’

The MRCA contract forms part of India’s estimated US$50 billion import-driven defense modernization exercise over the next five years that comprises submarines, tanks, missiles, air craft carriers, advanced radars, artillery gun and more.

India is making a conscious effort to move away from dependence on imports from Russia to countries such as Israel and America, apart from deepening ties with traditional partners such as France, Sweden and Britain.

The Russian defense industry is seen as increasingly outdated in the absence of effective state support. Existing Russian defense platforms in India’s possession depleted due to lack of spare parts and post sale maintenance.

Washington has been using every diplomatic and strategic means to pressure India to buy weapons from American firms. India has already signed multi billion dollar defense contracts with America comprising transport and reconnaissance aircrafts and this process is only going to grow in the future.

India’s military upgrade, meanwhile, is driven by perceived security threats from Pakistan and China. Given an incipient domestic defense armament industry, India is importing most of the arms it needs.

According to the Swedish think tank Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, India was the world’s biggest importer of arms between 2006 and 10 accounting for 9 % the global arms trade in the period.

This, however, does not mean that Pakistan and China, two countries with which India has fought wars in the past, lag their defense efforts in any way.

Pakistan continues to receive military largess from America as a partner in the global war against terror, though India has for long held that such stock piling of weapons only add to instability in the region.

New Delhi feels that US-supplied armaments to Pakistan are more potent against a conventional enemy rather than the amorphous terror networks that also spread over Afghanistan and need effective intelligence and pin pointed operations, such as the one that killed Osama Bin Laden, to neutralize.

Pakistan’s military, meanwhile continues to be supported by Beijing with several of its attack ballistic missiles with potential to destroy Indian cities a copy of those in possession of China.

China’s military prowess, of course, continues to be far ahead of India. The country has managed to blatantly copy western arms prototypes to build effective domestic armament manufacturing capability that has reduced its arms imports dependence that is reflected in the statistics over the past few years.

Given the closed nature of China’s polity, nobody is quite sure about the kind of investments and developments that are happening in China’s defense sphere. Some analysts believe that China’s military capabilities today could be superior to America.

Given such a scenario India has not choice but to build an effective deterrence against China while matching the military capabilities of Pakistan, against whom the security threats are more immediate

 

[SpArK]

For EFT fanboys.

 

[marcos98]

Rafale warplane deal stalled, UAE says proposal 'unworkable'
Reuters, Nov 16

AIRSHOW-UPDATE 3-UAE says Rafale proposal 'unworkable' | Reuters

A long-awaited French deal for Dassault to sell at least 60 Rafale warplanes to the United Arab Emirates appeared to hit a roadblock on Wednesday after the Arab country's crown prince said proposed terms were "uncompetitive and unworkable."

The deal, which had been negotiated for the better part of a year, was thrown into doubt earlier this week when it became clear that the UAE had asked for details on a rival aircraft, the Typhoon built by the Eurofighter consortium.

"Thanks to President (Nicolas) Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed, deputy of the country's armed forces, said in a statement, adding that Sarkozy's "personal intervention in this process has sustained Dassault at the forefront of our considerations."

"Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said.

A source close to the deal blamed the current impasse on the "arrogance" of Dassault, despite French military officials saying they were confident about securing a deal and hopes of finalising the sale at the Dubai Air Show.

"There is a shared frustration in both the UAE and French leaderships at the apparent arrogance of Dassault," the source said.

"Rather than using the strength of the bilateral relationship to close the deal out they are attempting to use it to hold out on pricing and a deal structure that hasn't changed in more than a year and that has been significantly bettered by all competitors."

French air chief General Jean-Paul Palomeros had told Reuters on Monday that the Emirates air force was "very keen with Rafale".

France is struggling to secure a foreign buyer for the aircraft, which is more developed than fourth generation combat aircraft but lags behind fifth generation multi-role fighters such as Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II.

The United Arab Emirates has pressed for the aircraft's engines to be upgraded with extra thrust and for better radar, industry sources have said, but Palomeros said UAE officials are satisfied with the plane.