Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[SpArK]

I don't hate the Rafale, I dislike Rafale fan boys.

But we like Rafale fan girls

 

[SpArK]

The MMRCA Pecking Order Poll​

Go to the site and vote​

By shiv aroor


In the next three weeks, the Indian medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition will move into a decisive phase -- price negotiations.

A very specific ranking order exists in the trial report that was submitted to the government following field evaluation trials last year. Journalists at Aero India were selectively leaked information about this so-called pecking order. I've decided to hold out on the specifics until there's greater clarity. However, there's already an overwhelming sense of where the competition is headed.

At the same time, there's still some very important work ahead before a final decision can be made. As always, it's never over until it's over.

Thought I'd ask you guys what you thought, based on everything that's been reported over the last 10 days.

Vote below:LINK

 

[Paan Singh]

jiski average sab se jayada hogi,india wohi purchase karega

 

[SpArK]

ROFL... stupid poll.

EF votes are splitted.. anyway EF seems to be the choice of the most.

 

[sancho]

Your claim is dubious, the Typhoon will detect the presence of emitters at similar ranges as the Rafale or Gripen. DASS has the ability to accurately triangulate the position of an emitter at distances of 100km. The ability to accurately determine the position of an emitter is limited to 100km but it can detect emitters at much greater distances. Locating the exact position of an emitter and detecting the presence of an emitter does not mean the same thing.

And Rafale is given with up to 200Km, not sure how you calculate that, but for me that is more.


Another dubious claim, if the Rafale is not emitting how is it guiding the missile. Missile guidance requires transmissions from the launching or guiding platform, the exception is 'end game' when the missile seeker becomes active. How does the Rafale guide a missile without transmitting guidance data to the missile?

French claims of domination over the EuroFighter at ATLC is unproven, participating RAF pilots continue to honor the agreement to limit training discussions to the debrief - the RAF side of the story is not known, Colonel Grandclaudon claims are controversial and have been challenged by aviation journalist covering the ATLC exercise.

The key difference is, that Rafale uses passive detection and localisation sensors, while EF RWR are active:

Radar Warning Receiver (RWR)

One of the fundamental sensors available to a modern fighter is its radar. However the use of such a system also puts an aircraft at risk since, as an active system it emits electromagnetic radiation. The DASS is equipped with Radar Warning Receivers (RWRs) designed to detect such emissions. The particular units used are Super Heterodyne (SuperHet) based wide-band receivers and are located in the port side pod (both front and rear) and within the aircraft's fuselage giving full 360° coverage in azimuth (elevation coverage is currently unknown).

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Defences


Regarding ATLC, even RAF pilots admits that they were shot down, but says that these encounters happend before the initial exercise and that there were kills on both sides. However, my point was only that Rafale has proven this capability and not only in A2A, but also in A2G by detecting ground radars and guiding AASM via Spectra. EF neither has this capability, nor the weapons to do the same yet. Actually that are the fields where it lacks behin the most, weapon integration and tech upgrades and so far it is still unclear what capabilities the T3 will have.

 

[Markus]

I am afraid to what the IAF chief had said a few days back.

All those companies who will loose will complain to the CVC and the entire MMRCA acquisition will be delayed by few months.

And if that happens I will open my own factory and manufacture my own Rafales'

 

[mautkimaut]

jiski average sab se jayada hogi,india wohi purchase karega

Like we purchase Tanks?

 

[sancho]

ROFL... stupid poll.

EF votes are splitted.. anyway EF seems to be the choice of the most.

I think that's the 3rd, or 4th poll he starts on MMRCA right? Btw, did you commented on his Rafale ride? L... B... sounded familiar.

 

[sancho]

I am afraid to what the IAF chief had said a few days back.

All those companies who will loose will complain to the CVC and the entire MMRCA acquisition will be delayed by few months.

And if that happens I will open my own factory and manufacture my own Rafales'

Who knows, wouldn't be the first time that foreign vendors complain about it and the competition had to be scrapped and reoppend, but it's IAF/MoD responsibility to give out clear rules from the start and to disqualify all that don't fulfill them. I bet there will be complains about the delays of the trials and that Saab was able to field the NG 1 month later than planned...

 

[Markus]

Who knows, wouldn't be the first time that foreign vendors complain about it and the competition had to be scrapped and reoppend, but it's IAF/MoD responsibility to give out clear rules from the start and to disqualify all that don't fulfill them. I bet there will be complains about the delays of the trials and that Saab was able to field the NG 1 month later than planned...

Buddy, lets hope we get our planes on time.

If anything goes wrong with the delivery of MMRCA, it will be a big tragedy for IAF.

 

[SpArK]

I think that's the 3rd, or 4th poll he starts on MMRCA right? Btw, did you commented on his Rafale ride? L... B... sounded familiar.

Yup i did commented. on that one..

 

[sancho]

Yup i did commented. on that one..

I knew it and x2 that!

 

[SpArK]

I knew it and x2 that!

Just an offtopic question. Have u come across in any forums or anywhere else , any article regarding the Dakshin prahar exercise happened in my city along the dates of Aero India.. I havent found anything on it which is worthy of reading...

 

[dbc]

The key difference is, that Rafale uses passive detection and localisation sensors, while EF RWR are active:



Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Defences


Regarding ATLC, even RAF pilots admits that they were shot down, but says that these encounters happend before the initial exercise and that there were kills on both sides. However, my point was only that Rafale has proven this capability and not only in A2A, but also in A2G by detecting ground radars and guiding AASM via Spectra]. EF neither has this capability, nor the weapons to do the same yet. Actually that are the fields where it lacks behin the most, weapon integration and tech upgrades and so far it is still unclear what capabilities the T3 will have.

You did not answer the question I posed earlier, if Spectra or Rafale is not transmitting how is it able to provide mid course updates to MICA?
I have no trouble acknowledging that spectra is able to detect a emitter passively this is not unique to the Rafale - all MMRCA fighters have that ability.

Stationary surface emitters can be attacked using target coordinates provided by Spectra prior to AASM release - but aerial targets are highly mobile. How does Spectra send mid course updates without emitting? Unless the missile seeker acquires the target before launch (close range active BVR shot).

You claim EuroFighters RWR is active? the words Radar Warning Receiver(RWR) implies the RWR receives emissions therefore is PASSIVE.

 

[the rafter]

US doubts over India jet fighter partner
By James Lamont in New Delhi
Published: February 17 2011 19:50 | Last updated: February 17 2011 19:50
The US government has expressed doubt about the suitability of corporate partnership with an Indian state aerospace company as Boeing and Lockheed Martin bid to supply New Delhi with 126 strike fighters.
Any winning bidder would have to work with Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which has in the past worked closely with Russian, British and French defence companies and produced an estimated 3,600 aircraft and helicopters. HAL’s turnover last year was $2.5bn.

“The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect,” Timothy Roemer, US ambassador to Delhi, wrote in a confidential cable released by WikiLeaks and seen by the FT.

After a visit to the company’s plant in Bangalore in February 2010, he described India’s aviation industry as “two to three decades behind the United States and other western nations” despite advances.

Mr Roemer was also struck by the lack of automation and safety precautions at the HAL plant, adding that US companies needed to “approach partnerships carefully to understand the management and technological experience of Indian firms”.

The US embassy in New Delhi said it could not “confirm the authenticity” of the cable, adding that the US State Department did not comment on classified documents that may have been leaked.

Mr Roemer based part of his assessment on difficulties BAE Systems, the British defence company, had experienced with HAL over the assembly of Hawk training aircraft – a project that fell behind schedule.

“BAE technicians supervising work at HAL became aware that parts were being taken from the kits intended to assemble new aircraft and used instead as replacement parts for the aircraft already delivered,” wrote the ambassador, a former Congressman from Indiana. “Lack of controls left BAE unsure of what parts were now missing from the kits.”

BAE said: “All the spare parts ordered were and have been delivered to schedule”.

Boeing said it enjoyed a “productive partnership” with HAL, building parts for the Boeing 777 airliner and the F/A-18 fighter jet. Orville Prins, Lockheed’s vice-president, business development India, said Lockheed could “ensure HAL will be successful” as a partner to produce F-16s.

Ashok Nayak, the chairman of HAL, said he was unaware of Mr Roemer’s assessment and declined to comment.
The US is pitching for what is one of the world’s largest military contracts, worth $11bn. Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed’s F-16 Super Viper are vying with the Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab’s Gripen, Dassault’s Rafale and Russia’s MiG-35 in a competition expected to be decided this year.

FT.com / Companies / Aerospace & Defence - US doubts over India jet fighter partner