Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[SpArK]

Italian Eurofighter Typhoons And Danish F-16s In Joint Exercise 'Winter Hide' !!​

 

[kingdurgaking]

Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale - Thales Group

Saw from another site that No of modules is around 850? is this true? if it is true... it is a very bad one... not even to the level that others are trying to offer

 

[jha]

RAFALE seems to be loosing the race..850 TR modules ( if true ) will be one of the many setbacks in RAFALE's campaign..

 

[luckyyy]

RAFALE seems to be loosing the race..850 TR modules ( if true ) will be one of the many setbacks in RAFALE's campaign..

with 850 T/R , radar range for 2.5m2 RCS target will be around 100km..

both amarican and russia has AESA with 1500T/R with a range of 150km...
russian offered a improve version of their AESA with more diameter and T/R with a range of 200km..
Both F-16/18 has nerrow nose so the radar diameter or T/R can not be improve any more , where as with mig-35 having wider nose , diameter of their radar can be improve by putting the radar a bit back..

 

[dbc]

Both F-16/18 has nerrow nose so the radar diameter or T/R can not be improve any more , where as with mig-35 having wider nose , diameter of their radar can be improve by putting the radar a bit back..

The APG-79 is built using advanced packaging techniques like Flip Chip to embed twice the number of MMIC's on a single PCB(printed circuit board).
Future growth is easily achieved by switching the GaA chips with GaN chips.

 

[sancho]

Without the actual data (which is tough to get, coz' most of the data is classified), RBE 2 is just another AESA radar in development, nothing special about it.

Most of those infos will be classified, the only figurs to compare that sometimes come out are for range, or detection/tracking and engaging targets at the same time.

The detection range is depending on the power for the radar and the number of TR modules integrated on the radar array, that again is depending on the nose diameter. Don't have the figures for power yet, but the number of TR modules is something like that:

1. EF - 1400+
2. F18SH - 1100
3. Mig 35 / F16IN / Gripen NG - 1000
4. Rafale - between 850 and 1000 (older pics shows up to 970 modules)


Still trying to collect reliable figures for target detection and engaging, these are the numbers I have so far:

1. Rafale - track 40, engage 8
2. Mig 35 - track 30, engage 6
3. F16IN - track 20, engage 4


The Rafale has the smallest nose, that's why it's not surprising that it falls back in numbers of modules and range. The reason for that is also clear, because they integrated the FSO into the nose as well, which means the radar can not use the full size of the nose. However, they did this on purpose, because they don't focus on detection via radar alone. Rafales main advantage is that it uses multi spectral sensor infos, to get high situational awareness, be it of the radar, the FSO, MICA IR seekers, data links, or all the sensors of SPECTRA.
They compromised on radar range, but focused on passive detection capabilities instead and so far it is the only fighter in the competition, that was able to shoot missiles, just guided by the SPECTRA EWS, completely passive!

To to understand what kind of advantage that is, consider an EF with AESA radar turned on, alongside an Rafale in passive mode and both are heading towards a stealth fighter with its AESA turned on as well.
The stealth fighter will detect the EF and Rafale at long range, while the EF radar can't detect anything even if it's only 150Km away. The Rafale instead can detect radar signals with it's RWR up to 200Km away (twice the range of EFs RWR) and altough it can't track, or guide a missile at that range, it knows that an aircraft is there way earlier than the EF.

During the ATLC exercise in the UAE, the Rafale got several BVR kills against the EF, although they still had the RBE 2 PESA radar only. EF normally should have a good advantage in BVR, going by paper specs (longer range radar, longer range missiles, low RCS, carries 6 x AAMs in every mission), but a passive Rafale is hard to detect too, because it has a low RCS and don't emits any signals. They guided their MICA missiles with SPECTRA EWS, after identifying the opponent with the TV channel of FSO, all completely passive without even the need to use the radar.

In times of low RCSs, or even stealth fighters, you have to have other detection capabilities than radar too, which shows what potential the Rafale has!
IRST is one way, but it's depending on the weather conditions, that's why EWS / ESM capabilities will have a bigger influence in future and we can see it at the F35 as well. It uses similar techs and features like the Rafale with SPECTRA to get increased long range situational awareness and couples them with the infos from the AESA radar, or other aircrafts.

Now lets take the example from above once again and replace the Rafale with our Su 30 MKI, flying next to EF. Both have long range radar and offers super maneuverability and high speeds, but EF won't have an advantage of detecting the enemy over MKI, because both focus on radar detection mainly, IRST secondly and using the EWS mainly for self defense.
But if we look at the same situation with Rafale and MKI, we will see again, the advantage of Rafale and how good it complements the MKI with new features. They still won't have much chances against a stealth fighter in BVR, but against JF 17, F16 B50/B52, J10, J11, even out numbered, that will be a hell of a combo!

AESA radar is a main requirement and the French are leading in Europe in this field, in 2014 when the first MMRCA squadron will be available, the radar will be in production for 6 years and be more mature, while Gripen radar is hardly developed, EF radar not even available, let alone mature.
So if the RBE 2 AESA radar offers the detection range that IAF requires, according to the RFP, the smaller size won't be a reason dismiss Rafale.

 

[sancho]

RAFALE seems to be loosing the race..850 TR modules ( if true ) will be one of the many setbacks in RAFALE's campaign..

Hi Jha, many setbacks like?

with 850 T/R , radar range for 2.5m2 RCS target will be around 100km..

both amarican and russia has AESA with 1500T/R with a range of 150km...
russian offered a improve version of their AESA with more diameter and T/R with a range of 200km..
Both F-16/18 has nerrow nose so the radar diameter or T/R can not be improve any more , where as with mig-35 having wider nose , diameter of their radar can be improve by putting the radar a bit back..

As I told you before and the Aero India specs now proven, they claimed to bring it up to 200Km, but haven't shown it, let alone having it ready and operational like the French. The early Zhuk AE had a diameter of 575mm only and offered a range of 130Km for a 3m2 RCS target. The specs shown at AI says, diameter of 688mm now, but detection of the same target at 160Km. They added more than 100mm and now have approx 1000 TR modules, but increased the detection range only by 30Km, so how much do they have to add to get the missing 40Km? Do they want to fit a Flanker nose on the Mig?

https://picasaweb.google.com/110614958773855914651/AeroIndia2011#5571669691433921218

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

^so it's not the length of nose but width matters in accommodating bigger powerful radar ?

 

[luckyyy]

The specs shown at AI says, diameter of 688mm now, but detection of the same target at 160Km. They added more than 100mm and now have approx 1000 TR modules, but increased the detection range only by 30Km, so how much do they have to add to get the missing 40Km?

So if the RBE 2 AESA radar offers the detection range that IAF requires, according to the RFP, the smaller size won't be a reason dismiss Rafale.

when it comes to rafale you are advocating according to the RFP..
when it comes to mig-35 , you are calculating well above and maximun RFP.....

 

[baker]

India should buy the best planes. But Prime Minister Manmohan Singh may force US aircraft upon the Air Force.

Intense dogfights were witnessed last week at Aero India 2011 in Bangalore between eight countries representing six fighter aircraft for clinching India’s biggest defence contract: The 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft worth $10 billion. The aircraft are Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martins’ F-16 IN Super Viper, MiG Corporation’s MiG-35, Saab’s Gripen NG, Dassault’s Raphael and a four-nation European consortium’s Eurofighter, Typhoon.

For the United States, which in the last five years has sold more defence equipment to India than it has in the last 50, bagging the deal has become both a prestige issue as well as a return for its critical investment in the India-US strategic partnership epitomised by the 123 civil nuclear agreement.

Lobbying for the contract is picking up as the sealed envelope containing the short list will be opened in the Ministry of Defence in April or May this year and the contract signed either in September 2011 or March 2012. The commercial bids by the six contestants are also sealed and kept with the Ministry of Defence.

From US President Barack Obama to Carnegie Endowment’s Ashley Tellis, all are canvassing for the US fighter aircraft and hinting it is payback time for India: 126 after 123. In April, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will be in New Delhi for the India-US strategic dialogue just when the envelope will be unsealed.

Last week US Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for South and Central Asia Geoffrey Pyatt, at a policy forum in Singapore, spoke about Washington’s preparedness to share with India now, the most advanced technology in the defence and economic domain. He said the US was talking to New Delhi a lot about the two strong American competitors for the 126 MMRCA deal.

Such a deal if it happened, he added, would revolutionise our military relationship. Also last week, Mr Andrew Shapiro, US Assistant Secretary of State, Political and Military Bureau at the State Department, was in New Delhi, pitching for military sales among other items of defence cooperation.

Indian defence analysts have told their American counterparts that despite certain glitches the Indo-Russian strategic partnership has endured. While Russia has leased a nuclear submarine to India for a second time, unpleasant memories of the US cutting critical supplies still linger. The political content of the India-US strategic partnership has to touch greater heights of mutual trust.

In 2005, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh noted that politics plays a big part in defence deals. Indians are only too familiar with the political inducements of the Swedish Government on late Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi in 1987 over the Bofors contract and the Russian cajolery of Prime Minister PV Narasimha Rao in 1991 over the Sukhoi deal consummated without any evaluation.

Another dicey contract was the one on Mirage 2000 brokered in 1982 jointly by Mr Sanjay Gandhi and Defence Secretary KPA Menon, once again without any technical evaluation as the aircraft did not exist. They tried to scuttle the perfectly legitimate Jaguar contract of 1978 negotiated by the Morarji Desai-led Janata Party Government but the British authorities blocked the attempt. While mega cost defence acquisitions were driven by political considerations (and kickbacks) quality of equipment was not compromised.

Industrialist Ratan Tata flew the F-18 and actor Shahid Kapoor piloted the F-16. The single-engine F-16 was also flown by the Indian Air Force’s most versatile and highly decorated fighter pilot Retd Air Marshal Jimmy Bhatia at Bangalore. None of their efforts will enhance the rating of these fighters in the IAF’s technical, flight and staff evaluation chart. The F-16 is a non-flyer because the Pakistan Air Force has had it in its inventory for 30 years. The twin-engine F-18 seems to have also missed the mark. The Russian MiG 35, a souped up MiG 29 did not show up in Bangalore. The Gripen is a great aircraft but single-engine and a lightweight equivalent of an improved Tejas LCA.

That leaves the two high-priced European contenders, Rafael and Typhoon, neck-and-neck in the race. Rather late in the day, Lockheed Martin and US Under Secretary of State for Defence Ashton Carter have indicated willingness to include India in the F-35 Advanced Stealth Fighter Programme.

India and Russia are already engaged in jointly developing the fifth generation fighter aircraft. That practically closes the door for an American fighter joining the IAF inventory. Two years ago senior IAF officers were even recommending splitting the 126 MMRCA between US and Russia.

The sealed envelope with its performance rating of the six aircraft was handed over by the IAF to the Ministry of Defence in July 2010 but a parallel dogfight is on over the offset policy between those for and against it. The MMRCA procurement procedure has been complicated by an unviable offset policy and unrealistic FDI cap of 26 per cent.

The six companies competing for the MMRCA were asked to explain their offset strategy by end this month. Authoritative sources in the IAF are drawing a possible option: On the short list are the two twin-engine European fighters, Rafael and Typhoon, both excellent but very expensive aircraft at a flyaway cost upwards of $100 million apiece. This is distinct from the lifecycle cost which could increase by 25 per cent. A third contender, the American F-18, could sneak into the short list.

Next month, when the commercial bids are opened, L1 (lowest bidder) will be invited to negotiate the final cost with the Price Negotiating Committee.

Ashley Tellis’s report, titled ‘Dogfight — India’s MMRCA Decision’, highlights how the IAF has declined 29 fighter squadrons and only by 2017 will they be restored to the authorised 39.5 squadrons. He believes that cost, technology transfers and the facility to fit into the evolving IAF force structure will determine the choice. He says that while European aircraft are ‘technically superb’, US entrants with older designs are ‘best buys’. The US offer should be compensated, he adds, by generous technology transfer and assured access to fifth generation aircraft.

Union Minister for Defence AK Antony has repeatedly and emotionally, said that merit not politics will decide the winning aircraft. Yet only the US has the will and capacity to help raise India’s global power profile. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s political instinct may let the F-18 plus fly into the ultimate deal.

The Pioneer :: Home : >> IAF set to soar again

 

[jha]

For RAFALE lovers...

Rafale F3 and AREOS Reco NG: the 21st century reconnaissance team

The AREOS Reco NG pod, an integral part of the F3 standard for Rafale fighters, brings France into the world of all-digital reconnaissance.

As a veritable “omnirole” fighter, the Rafale has already replaced several types of warplanes in the French air force and navy. This trend is set to continue in the coming years with the retirement of France’s last Mirage F-1 fighters, the carrier-borne modernized Super Etendard and the oldest members of the Mirage 2000 fleet. The Rafale F3 will therefore take over the reconnaissance role, for which it deploys a dedicated system, the AREOS Reco NG pod developed by Thales.

The French air force has already ordered a dozen pods, and the French navy another eight. Several series of deck landing and catapult launch tests have validated the pod’s use on aircraft carriers.

Tactical and strategic

The AREOS Reco NG pod is 4.6 meters long (15 ft.) and weighs 1,100 kg (2,420 lb), making it compatible with the Rafale, as well as the Mirage 2000 if needed. Up front on the pod, the HA/MA (high altitude/medium altitude) optical sensor supports photography at medium range, or even long-range at standoff distance. The AREOS Reco NG offers an identification range of several tens of kilometers – two to three times the range of the Presto pod currently deployed on Mirage F1CR aircraft in Afghanistan.

Located aft in the AREOS pod, the low-altitude sensor supports horizon to horizon photography at an altitude of only 60 meters (200 ft) and very high speeds. The pod operates automatically, whether working in intermittent, zone coverage or terrain-following mode, and always knows its exact position in space, so that it can control the pointing of its optical sensors in both pitch and roll.

Its control capability is based on data transmitted by its own inertial reference system, correlated with data from the nav-attack system on the aircraft itself. As soon as the shots are taken, they are automatically overlaid on a digital elevation model, geo-referenced and assembled to provide a complete mosaic of the target.

The images are then stored on a hard disk in the pod. They can be transmitted to a ground image receiving and processing station in real time, via a high-speed microwave link.

The recce pod can also operate in video mode by using successive images, and by measuring the displacement of a moving object from one image to another, it can estimate its speed.

Battlefield trials based on a hundred test flights enabled the CEAM military aircraft test center to validate the operation of the sensors and their tactical use in conjunction with the Rafale(1).

Test flights covered the full range of scenarios, from conventional to unusual, including tests of opportunity targets involving aircraft being reassigned in the middle of their sortie, through the L16 datalink.

“The pod is very easy to operate,” emphasizes Lieutenant-Colonel Jean-Philippe Scherer, the officer in charge of the AREOS Reco NG program at CEAM. “The crew sees a pointer on their digital map with a mission request. All they have to do is indicate that they accept the mission and slave the pod to the pointer. It’s fast, easy, and there’s no risk of a misunderstanding, since no radio communications are involved.”

Unrivaled

The teams at CEAM who subjected the Rafale-AREOS Reco NG duo to the toughest tests they could think of are very pleased.

“The daytime images are excellent,” says Lieutenant-Colonel Scherer. “Our objectives for night imaging, especially long-range infrared shots, were just as ambitious. The initial results are encouraging, but we’re now waiting for new adjustments to further boost performance.”

With this dual capacity, tactical and long-range, day and night, the Rafale F3/AREOS Reco NG duo is unrivaled worldwide. The first crews from operational units were trained at CEAM this summer. Several weeks later, the system reached its initial operating limit for appropriate missions, for example in foreign theaters of operation. Reflecting this capability, the pod is now deployed on the Charles-de-Gaulle aircraft carrier. By the end of the year, it will open its operating envelope to include terrain following during penetration flights, which is nearly as complex as a nuclear mission.

When this capability is added, the pod will officially be in service. “We’re eagerly awaiting the advent of this pod, since it’s a vital part of the Rafale F3,” concludes Lieutenant-Colonel Scherer.

Rafale F3 and AREOS Reco NG: the 21st century reconnaissance team

 

[sancho]

when it comes to rafale you are advocating according to the RFP..
when it comes to mig-35 , you are calculating well above and maximun RFP.....

Not really, I just doubt the additional range they claim for Zhuk AE on Mig 35, on basis of what is known so far and with the problems they have with weight. It might offer more range than the RBE 2, but is far away from beeing ready and compared to the other radars, it falls even short too.
Even with less radar range compared to the Mig (and the difference based on reliable sources is hardly 20Km so far), I put my money on Rafale in BVR, because of lower RCS, better BVR weapons, passive detection and weapon guidance, superior EWS.

 

[sancho]

For RAFALE lovers...

Rafale F3 and AREOS Reco NG: the 21st century reconnaissance team

Not an important feature for us I guess, but just another proof for it's true multi role capabilities and that it fulfills all the roles it was developed and design for:

When the RAFALE programme was launched, the Armée de l’Air and the Marine Nationale (the French Air Force and the French Navy) published a joint requirement for a balanced multirole aircraft that would be able to replace seven types of combat aircraft then in use.

The new aircraft would have to be able to carry out an extremely wide range of missions:

- Air-defence / air-superiority,
- Reconnaissance,
- Close air support,
- Precision strike / interdiction with conventional weapons
(air-to-ground and anti-ship attacks),
- Nuclear strikes.

 

[dbc]

To to understand what kind of advantage that is, consider an EF with AESA radar turned on, alongside an Rafale in passive mode and both are heading towards a stealth fighter with its AESA turned on as well.
The stealth fighter will detect the EF and Rafale at long range, while the EF radar can't detect anything even if it's only 150Km away. The Rafale instead can detect radar signals with it's RWR up to 200Km away (twice the range of EFs RWR) and altough it can't track, or guide a missile at that range, it knows that an aircraft is there way earlier than the EF.

Your claim is dubious, the Typhoon will detect the presence of emitters at similar ranges as the Rafale or Gripen. DASS has the ability to accurately triangulate the position of an emitter at distances of 100km. The ability to accurately determine the position of an emitter is limited to 100km but it can detect emitters at much greater distances. Locating the exact position of an emitter and detecting the presence of an emitter does not mean the same thing.

The DASS is to be a highly modular system. Each DASS has five processors, developed and produced by Radstone Technology PLC (Towcester, UK). The DASS will consists of a radar-warning-receiver/electronic-support-measures (RWR/ESM) unit with an initial frequency range of 100 MHz to 18 GHz (unconfirmed by company or users), which is probably to be increased to 40 GHz for Tranche 2/Block 10. The RWR/ESM system works with the use of a wideband super-heterodyne system able to perform quick searches for electromagnetic emitters. The processor of the RWR/ESM system will be able to locate emitters through triangulation conducted in sequence. The accuracy of the RWR/ESM is to be below one degree in azimuth. The distance of the exact location of emitters (to the sides of the aircraft, where detection will be more accurate) is to be at least 100 km. The identification of emitters will enable threat prioritization, with information presented on a moving map or on any multifunction display as needed.

Another important part of the DASS is a built-in electronic-countermeasures (ECM) system with the same spherical (360-degree) coverage around the aircraft as the RWR/ESM and (probably) the same frequency coverage. The ECM system is to work in several different modes and use directional beams for deception or noise jamming against threat emitters tracked by the RWR/ESM system. According to some sources, this part of the DASS on Italian aircraft was developed by Elettronica and is called Cross Eye

Typhoon arises: the Eurofighter Typhoon, though often criticized, represents the state-of-the-air in European military technology. | Goliath Business News

During the ATLC exercise in the UAE, the Rafale got several BVR kills against the EF, although they still had the RBE 2 PESA radar only. EF normally should have a good advantage in BVR, going by paper specs (longer range radar, longer range missiles, low RCS, carries 6 x AAMs in every mission), but a passive Rafale is hard to detect too, because it has a low RCS and don't emits any signals. They guided their MICA missiles with SPECTRA EWS, after identifying the opponent with the TV channel of FSO, all completely passive without even the need to use the radar.

Another dubious claim, if the Rafale is not emitting how is it guiding the missile. Missile guidance requires transmissions from the launching or guiding platform, the exception is 'end game' when the missile seeker becomes active. How does the Rafale guide a missile without transmitting guidance data to the missile?

French claims of domination over the EuroFighter at ATLC is unproven, participating RAF pilots continue to honor the agreement to limit training discussions to the debrief - the RAF side of the story is not known, Colonel Grandclaudon claims are controversial and have been challenged by aviation journalist covering the ATLC exercise.

 

[dbc]

See, don't get me wrong, I found it out of context because of the french link you posted (Le détachement français en action sur le salon Aeroindia) had nothing like you had quoted. I just thought you hate Rafale so much that you misinterpreted.
In any case, apart from Eurofighter Aero India 2011 blog I did not find any other reliable sources confirming the failure of Rafale. But again, I'm not shrugging in disbelief, it could have very well happened. I do think Rafale has its own set of problems (not sure how many?). Though the French have been a reliable defense partner of India and their Mirage 2000 is the best example. Eurofighter could be a better choice if it was little more mature in A to G, AESA and price. I do understand your point about the "Butterfly effect" and welcome your concern. I hope Sancho will provide some clarification regarding the Aero India incident?

I don't hate the Rafale, I dislike Rafale fan boys.