Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[angeldemon_007]

US cables reveal Boeing UAV project in Brazil (DAMN!! WIKI REALLY FACINATING ME )
Newly-leaked diplomatic cables provide evidence that Boeing partnered with a Brazilian company to work on a previously undisclosed unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) project.
The dispatch from the US embassy in Brasilia dated 15 January 2009 came during the most intense period in the competition for the F-X2 fighter contract, which involved the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.
On 13 January 2009, US Ambassador Clifford Sobel met with Nelson Jobim, then Brazil's minister of defence, to discuss Boeing's position in the competition, the cable says.
The issue of technology transfer prompted Nelson to praise Boeing's work with an undisclosed Brazilian company.
Nelson said he was "excited to hear that Boeing was working with a Brazilian company on a UAV, as it might prevent Brazil having to buy UAVs from Israel, which had become politically sensitive," the cable says.
It is not clear if the Brazilian company was a reference to Embraer, the country's largest aircraft maker. On 31 January 2011, Acir Podilha, vice president of sales and marketing for Embraer Defense and Security, told reporters that the company wants to become involved in UAVs, but currently has no products in that market.
Jobim's apparent effort to avoid purchasing Israeli UAVs did not appear to work. Two years after Jobim's conversation with Sobel, the Brazilian air force ordered Hermes 450s, which are manufactured by Israel-based Elbit Systems.

I really hope our policy-makers wok out this deal cleverly, we can also ask for talarion uav partnership. EADS is most likely to lose UAV contest and then it will look for partners from countries like India and Brazil. I really hope we do better negotiations like Brazil did.

If we go for US, we should ask for Predators. If we go for Rafale, then we could ask for partnership in Neuron or could ask for some DCNS new design like Swordfish or barracuda.

 

[the rafter]

I really hope our policy-makers wok out this deal cleverly, we can also ask for talarion uav partnership. EADS is most likely to lose UAV contest and then it will look for partners from countries like India and Brazil. I really hope we do better negotiations like Brazil did.

If we go for US, we should ask for Predators. If we go for Rafale, then we could ask for partnership in Neuron or could ask for some DCNS new design like Swordfish or barracuda.

FYI, India has already began on its own UAV program called 'AURA'.
I don't think India needs to join any other country's UAV program. But, it may be possible that India asks for European/American technical help to build its own.
Livefist: India's UCAV To Be A Neuron Clone?

 

[the rafter]

Northrop Grumman sees India sealing $11 bn deal in '11

US defence contractor Northrop Grumman expects India to seal a deal to spend USD 11 billion on new fighter jets by the end of this year, as it supplies fuselage and radars to manufacturers bidding for the order, an executive said on Monday.
Asia's third-largest economy is looking to spend more than USD 30 billion over the next five years to modernise its armed forces, including USD 11 billion to buy 126 fighter jets. There has been a lot of speculation on when India will pick a bidder.

Northrop, the Pentagon's No. 3 supplier by sales, has also proposed selling early warning systems and unmanned planes to the Indian navy, G. Sharma, the head of Northrop's Indian arm, told reporters.
India is strengthening its naval presence to protect its maritime interest in the Indian Ocean and inducting dozens of new ships and fighter aircraft to counter other naval powers.
The country is looking to modernise its weapons systems after the 2008 Mumbai attacks revealed glaring loopholes in security.
Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's F-16, Russia's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS-39 Gripen are among those competing for India's fighter jets order.
Northrop is supplying parts to Boeing and Lockheed for the jets. "India is a growing country," Sharma said. "The defence outlays which are being projected are substantially higher than what they had. Seeing all this, no country can avoid India."
Northrop is in talks with Indian companies such as state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Bharat Electronics for sourcing equipment locally, which could be one of the factors that India would consider when picking a bidder, Sharma said.
In 2009, India introduced a new rule that made it mandatory for foreign defence firms to buy 30% of equipment from local firms to boost the domestic defence sector, and is now looking to raise the figure to 70% within a decade.
US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, visiting India this week, said on Monday he was concerned about the country's tariff and non-tariff barriers, highlighting the hurdles in boosting bilateral trade despite the growing economic and security ties between the two countries.
Locke, who is leading Boeing, Lockheed and 22 other US firms on a trade mission in India, last week said he would press the country to buy US fighter jets and other advanced technology products.
Northrop Grumman sees India sealing $11 bn deal in '11 - Reuters -

 

[angeldemon_007]

FYI, India has already began on its own UAV program called 'AURA'.

Look buddy i pray we will be able to build this UCAV. But be realistic just look at our level of technology of UAV. The only UAV which could fly on its own and then land back is Rustom which as far as i know is still waiting to get inducted.

Also if you could see Rustom more than a decade late as compared to western world, although still its good.
We don't have any UAV which is in the category of predator like weapon carrying UAV. Not even Israel has such kind of UAV but we are thinking of building UCAV of the line of Neuron, X-47b.

I think we should stop dreaming, we need technological help and this way we could get.

FYI, we don't have any of the capability to bring this AURA out of the drawing board.

Whatever ADA or HAL say, actually there is no design yet only some speculation on the web. The current status of this project is just the name which would change in couple of years and then after 2 more years work will start.

And i didn't meant just uav, what i meant is we could negotiate about any state of the art technology or design in return of this deal just like Brazil did.

 

[the rafter]

Look buddy i pray we will be able to build this UCAV. But be realistic just look at our level of technology of UAV. The only UAV which could fly on its own and then land back is Rustom which as far as i know is still waiting to get inducted.

Buddy, I think you should read enough before making such claims! Since you would not believe my words i'm quoting the published news.

While the aircraft has many auto features like GPS-controlled Way Point Navigation and Get U Home even in its first flight, they will be exercised in the subsequent flights. The UAV has an endurance of 12 to 15 hours and can carry payloads up to 75 kg and has an altitude ceiling of 25,000 feet. The data link system for this UAV was designed and developed by another DRDO lab called Defence Electronics Applications Laboratory (DEAL) situated in Dehradun. Its airframe is made by a private company called Zephyr situated in Coimbatore and most of its onboard systems are also manufactured by Indian private industries. This development is the forerunner to the medium altitude long endurance UAV project Rustom H to be taken up by the lab shortly. This also paves way for the development of Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles in the country. This UAV can be used by all the three armed services of our country.
UAV test flightgoes off smoothly - The Times of India

India has not been left out of the global UAV push. The country operates Israeli Searcher tactical UAVs, and Heron Medium Altitude, Long Endurance (MALE) UAVs, placing an additional Heron order in 2005.
India’s Rustom MALE UAV: A Step Forward - Or Back?
http://www.iai.co.il/18900-16382-en/BusinessAreas_UnmannedAirSystems_HeronFamily.aspx

Also if you could see Rustom more than a decade late as compared to western world, although still its good. We don't have any UAV which is in the category of predator like weapon carrying UAV. Not even Israel has such kind of UAV but we are thinking of building UCAV of the line of Neuron, X-47b. I think we should stop dreaming, we need technological help and this way we could get.

India's indigenous unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) Nishant has successfully completed its series of confirmatory trials carried out by the army at the Chandan ranges in Pokhran, Rajasthan, ahead of its induction.
'Nishant, the UAV, has successfully completed the series of confirmatory trials conducted by the Indian Army at Chandan Range Pokharan recently,' a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) release said here Thursday.
The successful flight trials were conducted by the army before taking delivery of a set of four Nishants together with ground systems. The trials were witnessed by army's Director General (Artillery) Lt. Gen. Vinod Nayanar, ADE Director P.S. Krishnan and Nishant project director G. Sivasankaran.
The performance of the pay load sensors in particular has been better than even the imported UAVs with the Army.

Navy commissions nation's 2nd UAV squadron in Gujarat
Navy commissions nation's 2nd UAV squadron in Gujarat - Hindustan Times

FYI, we don't have any of the capability to bring this AURA out of the drawing board.

Here's further proof what India is capable of:
1) Indian aerospace scientists have developed an in-flight collision avert system that prevents unmanned aerial vehicles from crashing into enemy aircraft or other objects.
India working on UAV anti-collision system
2) Indian scientists the Army Institute of Technology said they developed a software program that improves landing precision of unmanned aerial vehicles without operator intervention.
India develops better UAV landing software
3) Within two years of developing the Vihang Netra, India’s first Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) in the private sector built for the Snow and Avalanche Study Establishment, a DRDO lab, a conglomeration of small and medium enterprises (SMEs) is now ready with the country’s first, hand-launched mini-UAV— E-5.
After Vihang Netra, SMEs float first mini-UAV

Whatever ADA or HAL say, actually there is no design yet only some speculation on the web. The current status of this project is just the name which would change in couple of years and then after 2 more years work will start.

India is making progress depending on its requirements and capabilities. If it needs an attack UAV, it will get one. Like here:
1) Northrop Grumman in race for Navy aircraft order
2) http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Se...ild-UAVs-in-joint-venture/UPI-80591285615764/
But Building UAV is not like going to Radioshack and assembling pieces together. It takes time and money.
BTW, Northrop Grumman's X-47B unmanned stealth bomber completed its first flight today.
The X-47B did a flyover of Edwards Air Force Base in Edwards, California. It was in the air for 29 minutes, reached an altitude of 5,000 feet. The tailless, fighter-sized aircraft is unlike other unmanned drones in that it can carry out extended missions completey controlled by a computer. It's also the first drone capable of taking off and landing aboard an aircraft carrier. The X-47B is slightly smaller than the B-2 stealth bomber. It can carry laser-guided bombs and fly at 40,000 feet at speeds faster than 500 miles per hour.
The UAV is a six-year $635.8 million project which is scheduled for completion by 2013.
http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/pages/news_releases.html?d=212928

Currently, India has several tires to defend itself and UCAV is not the most important tool for it (at least for now). Imagine the training, maintainenace and set-up one will require to operate such machines. An urgent requirement is for the MMRCA (because of the depleting squadron strength and old fighter jets). India's defense decisions and procurements (like any other nation around the world) are taken in consultation with the Air force, Army and Navy.
I understand your concern but talking in a forum does not make one smarter and knowledgeable than a nation's defense academy (no offense please). I hope my reply reassures you about Indian defense needs. In any case this is not the thread for discussing about UCAV any further.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I needed to know something ...
Amongst the MMRCA contenders only the superviper had an AESA radar to offer
so will the IAF get the Euorotyphoon or rafale that are leading the MMRCA contract with the current configuration or with AESA upgrades as both of the aircrafts do have a future project of AESA radar installation

 

[SpArK]

I needed to know something ...
Amongst the MMRCA contenders only the superviper had an AESA radar to offer
so will the IAF get the Euorotyphoon or rafale that are leading the MMRCA contract with the current configuration or with AESA upgrades as both of the aircrafts do have a future project of AESA radar installation

Wrong.. Super hornet, Mig-35 and Rafale has got their AESA ready.

AESA is a compulsory requirement for the whole MRCA deal.. The delay you see is due to IAF waiting for these newer fighters to fully mature so that it can choose the best from the best.

 

[luckyyy]

Wrong.. Super hornet, Mig-35 and Rafale has got their AESA ready.

AESA is a compulsory requirement for the whole MRCA deal.. The delay you see is due to IAF waiting for these newer fighters to fully mature so that it can choose the best from the best.

if AESA is so importent then why IAF didn't go for fitting the AESA radar on their mig-29 upgrade ?

 

[SpArK]

if AESA is so importent then why IAF didn't go for fitting the AESA radar on their mig-29 upgrade ?

Different deals different objectives.. that why no AESA for migs 21, 29s , Jaguars and mirages..

Even though i would like it be just like Mig-35.. dont know whats wrong with MoD babus.

 

[luckyyy]

Different deals different objectives.. that why no AESA for migs 21, 29s , Jaguars and mirages..

Even though i would like it be just like Mig-35.. dont know whats wrong with MoD babus.

mig-21 going to retire , so no point fitting a AESA on it..
no where to get the AESA for Jaguars and mirages.. ....british and franch still developing their AESA..

and the isreal has denied the AESA export under US pressure..

so the only AESA was available was the russian...

but stiil , if
if IAF won't want a AESA radar on mig-29 then why blame MoD babus , blame directly on IAF officers...

point is that if these upgraded mig-29 going to fly for next 15-20 years , and IAF satisfied without AESA radar , makes the case that AESA is not big thing in the eyes of the IAF ........

 

[SpArK]

if IAF won't want a AESA radar on mig-29 then why blame MoD babus , blame directly on IAF officers...

point is that if these upgraded mig-29 going to fly for next 15-20 years , and IAF satisfied without AESA radar , makes the case that AESA is not big thing in the eyes of the IAF ........

It cant be an IAF decision for sure.. better negotiations would have made it possible... Also the timing of MRCA with Mig-35 and Aesa would have worked against it.. bad timing i should say..

 

[luckyyy]

It cant be an IAF decision for sure.. better negotiations would have made it possible... Also the timing of MRCA with Mig-35 and Aesa would have worked against it.. bad timing i should say..

i never heard that IAF was ever intrested in AESA for mig-29 upgrade..
it was surely IAF decision..

 

[sancho]

I really hope our policy-makers wok out this deal cleverly, we can also ask for talarion uav partnership. EADS is most likely to lose UAV contest and then it will look for partners from countries like India and Brazil. I really hope we do better negotiations like Brazil did.

If we go for US, we should ask for Predators. If we go for Rafale, then we could ask for partnership in Neuron or could ask for some DCNS new design like Swordfish or barracuda.

First of all, you didn't read the article till the end right? Because it was stated that Brazil tried to form such an co-development in 2009 and kind of link it with FX2 competiton, but it obviously failed, because their airforce now ordered Israeli UAVs.

Secondly, we will never get partnerships on Predators, or NEURON, or similar US UCAVs, because that are their high techs for the future and nobody will share them so easily.
What we can do is combine MMRCA and other competitions, to get more advantages in terms of ToT, JV and co-developments on other developments. The Europeans would offer consultancy on our AURA development, while Russia might even offer partnerships (with the lack of fundings). The US instead won't allow such developments and sees India only as an outsourcing alternative for non critical parts (F18SH gun bay, S92 cabin...) so far, but joint developments with a real partner status are not in their interests.

but stiil , if
if IAF won't want a AESA radar on mig-29 then why blame MoD babus , blame directly on IAF officers...

point is that if these upgraded mig-29 going to fly for next 15-20 years , and IAF satisfied without AESA radar , makes the case that AESA is not big thing in the eyes of the IAF ........

You point out the right thing, but fall into the wrong conclusion! AESA is important for Indian forces, that's why all new fighters except the Mig 29K / KUBs will get them as soon as they are available. Upgrading older fighters with AESA instead, that has only a limited service life left, is too costly, that's why they get more cost-effective MMR radars (Zhuk ME, RDY, Elta 2032).

The Russian AESA is not ready, only the early prototypes with very less TR modules and even less modes are available. That's why the 29Ks will get AESA only with the next upgrade, while N-LCA (based on LCA MK2) is already planed with AESA radar. The only non US AESA ready for production, is the RBE 2 and although we could get it for Mirage 2000 (was flighttested on this version too), it simply would not be worth the costs.
In regard of MMRCA there are even several points to think about:

1) AESA radar is compulsory as a minimum requirement!

That means, the wining fighter must offer it, which gives EF and Gripen, some problems, because they offer older EF T2 and Gripen C/D first.

2) ToT and costs!
Our indigenous AESA development was not accepted by the forces, therefor a co-development is needed. Any useful ToT that helps us in the development, will add to our industrial capabilities and if we can combine the co-development with MMRCA, it will be more cost effective by using same techs, possibly even the same radar for LCA and MMRCA!

3) Not the fighter with the highest detection range will win!
Because they all will most likely fall short to upgraded MKI AESA radar and FGFA AESA anyway, fulfilling the minimum range and mode requirements seems to be more important.

 

[SpArK]

 

[SpArK]