Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[kingdurgaking]

IC, now I get it, but that depends on the situation I would say as well on the capabilities of the fighter. For example, we already have a good ammount of air superiority over PAF, because of more capable fighters in higher numbers, but can we do a preemptive strikes? No, because our ground attack fighters proved even to be less usfull in such a limited conflict like Kargil. They also have very limited self defense capabilities and always needs escorts, while real multi role fighters can defend themself, even during a strike mission.

I am not sure which air craft you are talking about as Air superiority... Is it Mig 29 or MKI... Mig 29 was an air superiority with the upgrade it is becoming a potent Mulit role craft... while MKI is already stamped as the best swing role fighter in our inventory.. and we can see MKI configured for Brahmos and Nirbhay ... which makes it the best option for deep strike penetration ... Can you be little more specific where we lag now on ground attacks?.... we have Mig 27, Jaguar assigned for that task... Mirages do configured for that in the upgrade... while i can see almost all top line air craft are multirole in exception to MKI.. which is a swing role which can target both air and ground assets at the same time...

i still believe we should have a dedicated Air superiorty fighter because With IAF 29 in air PAF 16 multi role where at bay during kargil.. and bombing was carried by 21's, jaguars and mirages .. even with AWACS and current BVR they will not risk going on combat against IAF all alone...

In this case the only option would be, like you pointed out, trying to get air superiority first, but even against PAF with increasing capabilities and AWACS support that won't be easy anymore and MMRCAs are meant against PLAAF. We can defend ourselfs against them, but it's doubtful that we would achieve air superiority to safely do strike missions as well and that's the point in MMRCA, when we talk about the operational capabilities.
MKI will remain the main air superiority fighter and MMRCA needs to serve alongside of it in air defense roles, but more important will be the strike component of them, because that is the field where IAF has the main problems now and needs new capabilities.

Agreed with AWACS across borders getting air superiority is difficult.. but every air force will try for that right??.. They will atleast make sure that enemy's sortie reduces with time...
Sirjee i am not sure where you got MKI will be deployed only as air superiority?.. MKI came into operation as Air superiority but now it is changed a lot and still has more room for upgradation ..further it is upto the squadron how they get trained.. In Tezpur 2 squad's are deployed.. both for Air superiority and for ground attacks.. as far i am aware that is mainly configured for ground and deep penetration strikes.. with super upgrades in future i am sure MKI will become the precision strike weapon for deep penetration attack aka FGFA the air superiority...

First of all, it won't get CFTs, because they purposly went with a redesign of the airframe to increase the internal fuel instead of adding CFTs. Secondly no it's not a good choice for India, if strikes, ToT, offsets and strategic/political advantages are the keys in MMRCA, because in all these fiellds the Gripen/Saab/Sweden can't offer us what we want. Gripen is a good fighter and cheap, but that's exactly why we have LCA for, so no need for another similar fighter. Regarding single engine, I often stated that we made a mistake by going for a light single engine fighter like LCA, instead of going for an light to medium single engine fighter like F16/J10. However, that's the reality now and the only comparable single engine fighter in MMRCA is the F16IN and that is obviously not a good choice anymore.

Agreed it wont have CFT and no political clout.... but certainly all good technologies.. it will serve both as a2a and a2g unlike rafael ... but yes with less capability ... as i said earlier.. it is the weapons that will do the damage not the fighter.. with weapons being common platform and option for customization for indian weapons + AESA on being offer... it has all the features IAF has requested... if they give 100% ToT what else do you need??... yes some parts are sourced from US..the critical being engine.. except engine the deisgn of the entire fighter is done by SAAB.. the parts that come from US can be built locally by HAL tomorrow because SAAB gives you the specification and source code to us right...


LCA and griphen cant be compared.. and secondly what make you feel LCA is a mistake?? it is the requirement for IAF to defend our country.. so you mean to say Mig-21 is also a mistake which was part of 2 wars in which we won? To fight and defend the border in the north-east dont you think Griphen is more than enough?? war there wont be escalated as it will be at the fought at the borders only... any day Griphen can match with J-10 & J-11B for sure.. for our border at west... i guess Mig's are more than enough...

The only thing that is bothering me with Rafael/EFT is price and future upgrades... with EFT things are dim as the nations will be going for unnmanned aircraft.. while with Rafael what is there in future?? any customization will end up having the treatment like UAE(pay from your pocket for customization)... so better go for Griphen.. cheap and we get ToT which is what we need at this point of time.. as far political advantage no one will give a penny to India.. we will have to cross the well on our own..


Any way lets wait for the first filtering who makes to final round..

 

[kingdurgaking]

If the US government and vendors consider the MMRCA deal strategic enough to make an exceptional offer then we will raise the bar far enough to make the Europeans irrelevant. If this does not happen then we can only assume India isn't important to the US.

exactly ..very crisp and right to the point.. but you know India isn't that important to US right now... if Mr.Bush is your president...yeah right now boeing would have bragged the contract for sure a good upgraded 18 would have been negotiated with India along with good ToT

 

[the rafter]

The are some here that have a juvenile fascination with TWR (thrust to weight ratio) and make repeated erroneous claims and assumption based on just one measure.

Four forces act upon an aircraft in flight these are:
1. Lift
2. Weight
3. Thrust
4. Drag

Depending on an aircraft's orientation in flight relative to ground these forces interact to influence the aircraft’s aerodynamic efficiency. Under cruise conditions or straight level flight the lift produced by the wing is equal to weight and thrust is equal to drag. Simplified, this mean that the weight of the aircraft has little influence on the aircrafts ability to accelerate. Acceleration then largely depends on the engine generating enough thrust to overcome drag.

This is why the L over D ratio (lift over drag) is a better measure of an aircraft’s aerodynamic efficiency than thrust to weight ratio, thrust to weight ratio (TWR ) greater than ONE implies the aircraft is able to overcome gravity in a vertical climb perpendicular to ground. Of course, any aircraft that attempts to go vertical at zero air speed will end up on the ground a$$ first, the aircraft will likely need the TWR of a rocket typically 100 times its own weight to perform such a fete.

L/D Ratio

The F/A-18 E/F has the best L/D ratio of all the aircrafts in US inventory it even surpasses the F-22 Raptor. Does this exceptional L/D score make the F/A-18 E/F the king of the hill? No! but the folks that are fixated on thrust to weight ratio and make claims of superior aerodynamic performance based on TWR >1 have no understanding of the basic principles of flight.

Here is video showing some of the substantial contribution that NASA has made to the F/A-18 program. When approached to help with a wing stall problem NASA came up with an ingenious solution - the Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW). The AAW wing not only reduces aerodynamic drag but it substantial increase control authority through the flight envelope.

ASTT Annual Progress Report

I had few basic questions regarding the advantages of Super hornets:

1) Does this Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW) advantage applies when you are maneuvering the aircraft loaded with weapons on the wings?
2) When the aircraft carrying asymmetrical loads?

 

[the rafter]

If the US government and vendors consider the MMRCA deal strategic enough to make an exceptional offer then we will raise the bar far enough to make the Europeans irrelevant. If this does not happen then we can only assume India isn't important to the US.

Its not that India cares if US thinks it as an ally or not. But US equally needs India to contain China. Which other country in Asia do you think US can use against China?
So MMRCA deal is not going to be a decider to win US friendship, or as you make it sound. India has signed many defense deals with US during Obama visit last year (~10 billions, if not more).

 

[dbc]

I had few basic questions regarding the advantages of Super hornets:

1) Does this Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW) advantage applies when you are maneuvering the aircraft loaded with weapons on the wings?
2) When the aircraft carrying asymmetrical loads?

The Active Aeroelastic Wing has not been incorporated into production F/A-18 E/F, this technology will likely debut on Boeing's 6th generation tailless design.

The point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't emphasize it was that the F/A 18 has one of the thinnest wing on a production fighter contributing to its exceptional L/D score. F/A-18's thin wings made it an ideal candidate for AAW studies. AAW technology is an option that Boeing can explore in the future if F/A-18 customers wish to expand the aircrafts capability.

Over the course of the second phase of flight tests, roll rates adequate for lateral control, or within 15 to 20 percent of that obtained by a production F/A-18, were obtained by use of active control of wing flexibility alone, without use of the differential rolling horizontal tail used by standard F/A-18s at transonic and supersonic speeds.

Project engineers hope to obtain roll performance at transonic and supersonic speeds close to that of production F/A-18s, without using the aircraft's stabilators (fully moving horizontal tail flight control) and with smaller control surface deflections.

NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Active Aeroelastic Wing

The ability to alter wing shape in flight and eliminating the horizontal tail has several benefits, reducing drag, reducing radar cross section and weight are some of the key benefits of incorporating AAW. To answer your question, the design goal was to improve on aerodynamic performance without compromising existing capability so while maneuverability is improved by AAW the ability to fly and fight carrying asymmetric loads remains the same.

 

[dbc]

Its not that India cares if US thinks it as an ally or not. But US equally needs India to contain China. Which other country in Asia do you think US can use against China?
So MMRCA deal is not going to be a decider to win US friendship, or as you make it sound. India has signed many defense deals with US during Obama visit last year (~10 billions, if not more).

You're reading too much into what I said, when I said "India isn't important to the US" I meant India as a market for US military sales.

 

[the rafter]

Boeing to unveil stealthier F/A-18 aircraft
Published: Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011, 19:02 IST
By Hemanth CS
A mocked up version of Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet will be among the many metal birds to debut at the upcoming Aero India 2011.

Boeing, which is one of the contenders for the $10 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract, will unveil a stealthier version of the F/A-18 at the air show to be held at the Air Force Station Yelahanka between February 9 and 13.

Boeing’s vice president and country head for defence, space and security, Vivek Lal, said that one of the two F/A-18s which will be performing at the bi-annual show will be configured with conformal fuel tanks, enhanced performance engines, spherical missile laser warning, enclosed weapons pad, next generation cockpit and internal infrared search and tracking system.

The mocked up aircraft, which will be unveiled at the Aero India will be the first F/A-18 to be developed as part of the ‘International Super Hornet Roadmap’ programme which was announced by the US-based aerospace company at last year’s Farnborough Air Show in the UK.

Labelled as the next evolution of Block II Super Hornet, the aircraft is said to have features “which increase survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers”.

Lal said that if India inked the 126 MMRCA deal with Boeing, it would also have the option of shaping its technology in future. “We are putting up a platform which will be combat worthy for the next 30 to 40 years,” said Lal.
Boeing to unveil stealthier F/A-18 aircraft - Bangalore - DNA

 

[the rafter]

Russian MiG-35 to skip biz deal, show?
February 2nd, 2011

Is Russia backing out of the battle for Indian Air Force's $ 12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract? MiG-35, the Russian contender for IAF's cash-guzzling deal, will give Aero India 2011 a skip.
The fighter was first unveiled at Aero India 2007, followed by a demonstration of its air prowess in Aero India 2009 in view of Moscow's keen interest to sell these planes to IAF.
This top-of-the-line multi-role aircraft will not pitch itself against other competitors next week, marking its exit from the race. Sources in the ministry of defence said Russia's focus would be on major deals such as the aerial tanker aircraft for mid-air refuelling of IAF's fighters, heavy-lift helicopters and radars during the five-day airshow beginning February 9.
The Russian aerial refuelling aircraft were used extensively during the flight trials of all six fighters in the reckoning for MMRCA deal and therefore would have an edge over other jets, sources told Deccan Chronicle.
France's Rafale, scheduled to make its debut at the air show, will be the cynosure at the international event. The Rafale, Sweden's JAS 39 Gripen, and United States' F-16 and F/A-18 Super Hornet, land at Air Force Station, Yelahanka, on Wednesday.
Russian MiG-35 to skip biz deal, show? | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-02

 

[OldKool]

The Active Aeroelastic Wing has not been incorporated into production F/A-18 E/F, this technology will likely debut on Boeing's 6th generation tailless design.

The point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't emphasize it was that the F/A 18 has one of the thinnest wing on a production fighter contributing to its exceptional L/D score. F/A-18's thin wings made it an ideal candidate for AAW studies. AAW technology is an option that Boeing can explore in the future if F/A-18 customers wish to expand the aircrafts capability.



NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Active Aeroelastic Wing

The ability to alter wing shape in flight and eliminating the horizontal tail has several benefits, reducing drag, reducing radar cross section and weight are some of the key benefits of incorporating AAW. To answer your question, the design goal was to improve on aerodynamic performance without compromising existing capability so while maneuverability is improved by AAW the ability to fly and fight carrying asymmetric loads remains the same.

 

[luckyyy]

If the US government and vendors consider the MMRCA deal strategic enough to make an exceptional offer then we will raise the bar far enough to make the Europeans irrelevant. If this does not happen then we can only assume India isn't important to the US.

and it is more importent for india to safegourg their skies then anything alse...

 

[luckyyy]

The Mig is a designed for A2A and has just some added A2G capabilities, just look at the difference between Mig 29SMT and Mig 35 and you will see that with AESA radar, TVC, more thrust they again added mainly A2A features. They did increased the numbers of weapon station, payload and range too, but in these fields the Mig remains to be one of the least capable in the competition (besides several other issues). That's how the Russians like it (Su 35 and Su 34), but we want multi role fighters in between (MKI, FGFA, MMRCA) and that's why the Mig is not a good choice for IAF anymore.

mig-35 is least capable only in the views of internet activists...

specification by specification , mig-35 scores among the best...

radar , weapon load , range , IRST , weapons.........

you name it , it has everything..

 

[MST]

mig-35 is least capable only in the views of internet activists...

specification by specification , mig-35 scores among the best...

radar , weapon load , range , IRST , weapons.........

you name it , it has everything..

I think by not showing up in Aero India it is now understood that MIG -35 is already out of shortlist. No point investing (spending millions) in coming to Aero India when there isn't much chance of winning.
So there is no point arguing about its specifications.

Russia - India should focus now on the $30 Billion PAK FA/FGFA.

 

[Enviable neighbour]

1 thing's for sure that it boiled down to Rafale and EF.

Technical comparison of Rafale/EF has been done to death here, so....

Non technical advantages of Rafale (my perspective):

1. We already have the necessary infrastructure, know-how in operating the french planes. (greatest advantage)

2. Rafale is made by a SINGLE nation not a consortium.

3. Europian consortium itself is switcing to unmanned vehicles, so future in doldrums.

4. India will be the only 2nd country flying Rafale.

5. Rafale's overseas sales being NIL, price discount should be on cards.

6. Rafale is the sexiest beast of the lot.

7. US embargos shouldn't be a concern, as we enjoy the status of an ELITE partner with the US. The nuclear deal should be a testimony to it.

I'm all with Rafale .

 

[Skull and Bones]

1 thing's for sure that it boiled down to Rafale and EF.

Technical comparison of Rafale/EF has been done to death here, so....

Non technical advantages of Rafale (my perspective):

1. We already have the necessary infrastructure, know-how in operating the french planes. (greatest advantage)

2. Rafale is made by a SINGLE nation not a consortium.

3. Europian consortium itself is switcing to unmanned vehicles, so future in doldrums.

4. India will be the only 2nd country flying Rafale.

5. Rafale's overseas sales being NIL, price discount should be on cards.

6. Rafale is the sexiest beast of the lot.

7. US embargos shouldn't be a concern, as we enjoy the status of an ELITE partner with the US. The nuclear deal should be a testimony to it.

I'm all with Rafale .

That's not a valid reason, dude
keeping all the factors in mind Rafale is a better choice.

 

[luckyyy]

I think by not showing up in Aero India it is now understood that MIG -35 is already out of shortlist. No point investing (spending millions) in coming to Aero India when there isn't much chance of winning.
So there is no point arguing about its specifications.

Russia - India should focus now on the $30 Billion PAK FA/FGFA.

surely it not on the shortlist of internet posters....but they are not the one deciding the mmrca....

people who will be deciding will take specifications into their notes..