Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Skull and Bones]

India is in kind of dilemma ,for what to go and for what not to.

On one side they have Russia but Russia is not a big problem as they can be managed by 5th generation deal

Then it comes to Sweeden who is offering more TOT out of all competitors also is agreed to work with local companies ,and you can't get a better opportunity to develop your local industry

but then on the other side You have US who is really trying hard to sell their aircraft and india buy tilting towards US side and being in their corner if rejects that might effect other deals plus may have negative impact on diplomatic relationship.Also the most important factor for India is to have their foot in Afghanistan and they can't do so without uncle sam's help

The last but not the least EF-2000 which by far is technologically superior out of all the aircrafts and rejecting it would really be a bad news also when india already is operating british aircrafts and have years long cooperation in defence field will make it easy to maintain a british origin aircraft

US jets are a strict no-go for us, because they are sanction prone, and no significant ToT involved.

IAF has bitter experience with cost escalation mirage upgrade program. this can affect the mmrca contract. And we'll be dependent on the french for any kind of up gradation in future.

We'll hardly get any significant ToT in Gripen, since most of components are from US.

Mig-35 is basically a very good aircraft, but IAF has no interest in it.

So EFT is the only contender left. But it will take time to mature.

 

[Mani2020]

rockstar;1446993]

Russia knows MMRCA will not go for their way, as you said its is managed by PAK FA

Exactly that is what i said,Even IAF can upgrade there mig-29's with the AESA radar operational on Mig-35 later on

TOT and local production is offered by everyone, not just Sweden, Gripen will not fit into IAF as we are going for LCA Mk2, which is more or less equal.---problem solved------

No everyone is not offering full TOT Americans are offering limited TOT . plus the point was Saab is ready to work with local indian company on other projects if Gripen deal materialized and that itslef will be a boost to local manufacturing industry.
And single engine will be more suitable for IAF as they dont want to be burdened by twin engine heavy maintanence aircarfts which have less sortie rates .with single engine you can achieve more sorties which is always a benefit plus the ease of maintainance , Apart from mirages no other aicraft in IAF inventory would be single engine because we all know mig-21's will be replaced so are Jaguars , so Mig-29,FGFA, Su-30 all are twin engine fighters and hat too in large numbers another single engine along with LCA would be ideal as it would be a perfect match ,a nice blend of single engine and heavy class fighters .Even US still maintains a large fleet of single engine F-16's that too somehwere around 1300 numbers mark coz they know how difficult it is to maintain them

Afganistan and MMRCA??? two different stuff, no US jets in IAF. Even US knows that they are not gonna win else there should be no strings at all. Ball is in their court.

When it comes to politics every thing is co-related ,its like "you do this for us and we will do that for you"

 

[Mani2020]

US jets are a strict no-go for us, because they are sanction prone, and no significant ToT involved.

IAF has bitter experience with cost escalation mirage upgrade program. this can affect the mmrca contract. And we'll be dependent on the french for any kind of up gradation in future.

We'll hardly get any significant ToT in Gripen, since most of components are from US.

Mig-35 is basically a very good aircraft, but IAF has no interest in it.

So EFT is the only contender left. But it will take time to mature.

EF-2000 is already 17 years old.It made its first flight somewhere around in 1994 and today is 2011 so its enough time that have been passed .also many airforces are already using it ,so i don't see any point of pre-maturity. the only draw-back is its AESA but i think it will be operational soon

 

[Skull and Bones]

EF-2000 is already 17 years old.It made its first flight somewhere around in 1994 and today is 2011 so its enough time that have been passed .also many airforces are already using it ,so i don't see any point of pre-maturity. the only draw-back is its AESA but i think it will be operational soon

Don't forget the thrust vectoring

 

[IND151]

by Skull and Bones
Don't forget the thrust vectoring

reduced RCS also must not forgotten.

 

[sancho]

MIRAGE M2K STILL ON SALE

France has proposed to sell 18 Mirage F1 retrofitted aircraft that can be delivered from late 2011 and immediately operational because many Iraqi pilots were trained in the past on this type of plane,"

As you can see, 2nd hand Mirage F1!

Rafale TWR 1.08 is fine.

If that is the case, why should we go for partnership with french firm for new Kaveri engine for AMCA?

Rafale engine thrust - 60 kn to 75 kn

Kaveri engine thrust (achieved till now) - 70-75 kn

If the above is the case, we can easily use the current Kaveri engines for AMCA, no need a partnership with French firm.

(For LCA Mk2, it is fine as the single engine needed 90-95 kn)

What you think?

Kaveri - engine was aimed on LCA from the begining and although it is delinked from it at the moment (not enough thrust, not mature enough), it seems to be the plan to integrate it on the Tejas MK1 during the MLU. That means, no second order of foreign engines would be needed. If that is the case, the selection of GE 414 on MK2, instead of to more capable EJ200 makes sense, because that means the US engine is only chosen as a cost-effective and proven stopgap and will be replaced by Kaveri - Snecma engine as well.
For AMCA Kaveri - Snecma engine with 90kN is needed for sure, because a stealth fighter carries more weight and fuel, then a normal 4. / 4.5 gen fighter, because of the internal weapon bays and bigger internal fuel tanks. Therefor, the TWR should be good as well, if the aim is to have a good manouverability, personally I have even some doubts if 90kN will be enough, but that depends on the final specs of AMCA.

How do you compare SPECTRA with Mayawi?? ... There are reports which states that the latter is the best and will go into 5G craft of IAF

Mayawi is still very unknown, there are only a few sources available and it's capabilities are not proven yet, so saying it is the best is not really reliable when you can't base it on facts. Also it was made for LCA Tejas, a 4. / 4.5 gen cost-effective low end fighter and although I do think the Israelis developed a very effective defense system again, I expect it to be less capable compared to an EWS of an 5. gen stealth fighter.
There were some rumors that Israel wants to use it on their F35s, but the reports were not realy reliable and talked mainly about an Israeli EWS, not directly about Mayavi. We might base FGFA, or AMCA EWS on Mayavi, but I wouldn't mind some ToT of SPECTRA as well.

 

[sudhir007]

YouTube - Saab at Aero India

 

[Mani2020]

Don't forget the thrust vectoring

The new engine has TVC ,just watched that documentary few days back

 

[Skull and Bones]

The new engine has TVC ,just watched that documentary few days back

please post that link, m dying to see a thrust vectoring EFT

 

[SpArK]

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion

 

[sancho]

please post that link, m dying to see a thrust vectoring EFT

This is a good article about it including a video:

Eurojet pushes thrust-vectoring technology for Typhoon


TVC is developed for EF, but it's doubtful that it will be added in T3, because the partners don't see the need for additional cost.

 

[Skull and Bones]

This is a good article about it including a video:

Eurojet pushes thrust-vectoring technology for Typhoon


TVC is developed for EF, but it's doubtful that it will be added in T3, because the partners don't see the need for additional cost.

this the problem of having multiple partners, every up-gradation has to see the green light from each and every member

 

[sancho]

this the problem of having multiple partners, every up-gradation has to see the green light from each and every member

At least for the core techs like radar, or engine. In this case one partner could do it alone, but the point is they don't see a real need for it and possibly they are right. The EF even now is one of, or even the most manouverable fighter besides the F22 possibly, so it don't need TVC neccesarily in this regard. That is also the reason why the consortium companies says that TVC would improve the fuel consumption as well, to offer another advantage.
However, the reality at the moment is, that the partner countries have not the money to fully develop the EF and that's why they are desperately searching for a new foreign partner, be it India, Turkey, or Japan. But all these countries already (co-)develop an 5. gen fighter, so teaming up and paying so much to improve EF for basic features does not make much sense, not even for EF partners like Italy, or UK, that are partners in F35 as well.

EF could undeniably be a great fighter, but it came too late, is too costly and less developed now!

 

[angeldemon_007]

TVC is developed for EF, but it's doubtful that it will be added in T3, because the partners don't see the need for additional cost.

But we are getting TVC.

Read this article...
Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force

From the article:
European aerospace conglomerate EADS, the manufacturer of the Eurofighter Typhoon, has aggressively pushed for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets by offering the plane with a thrust vector upgrade that will considerably improve its operational capabilities.
The upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions, an EADS statement said Monday

What does it meant, upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions ?? I mean, will they be charging extra from what they had submitted in the offer ??/
According to me....No, because the offer was placed before and these upgrades offer came afterwards.

 

[the rafter]

With own 5G jet plan, India 'rejects' US offer
NEW DELHI: India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 'Lightning-II ' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational.

"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month," said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project.

Interestingly, the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India to select either the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' ( Boeing) or F-16 'Falcon' ( Lockheed Martin ) over their European rivals in the ongoing IAF's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

The other 4.5-generation fighters in the hotly-contested race to bag the $10.4 billion MMRCA project, under which 18 jets will be bought offthe-shelf and another 108 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology, are Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation ).

The IAF force matrix for the coming years revolves around the 270 Sukhoi-30 MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 MMRCA and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29 s and Mirage-2000s.

In the decades ahead, the advanced stealth FGFA to be developed with Russia will be the mainstay of India's combat fleet. "Our FGFA will be cheaper than the F-35 . Moreover , the intellectual property rights of the FGFA will equally and jointly vest on both India and Russia, with full access to the source code and the like," said another senior official.

With a potent mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability , the 'swing-role' FGFA will of course not come cheap. The cost of designing, infrastructure build-up , prototype development and flight testing has been pegged at around $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.

Over and above this, each of the 250-300 FGFA India hopes to begin inducting from 2020 onwards will cost around $100 million each. In all, India will spend upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project till now.
With own 5G jet plan, India 'rejects' US offer - The Times of India