Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[MST]

F/A-18 has nil chance against Rafael or EFT .. so we go for better...
Name a Feature that F/A-18 posses except the Radar that makes it super duper.. I can give several good features for EFT and Rafale one i will tell now is supercruise without AB

Buddy, even though I like Rafael and EFT smitten: my personal fav) more I think F/A 18 has the highest chance of winning MMRCA. I think the reasons will not be which is the best fighter around (EFT best Air Superiority and Rafael best overall) but what suits the IAF requirements most and what comes out as the L1 after shortlisting.

Below are some reasons why I think so.

1) IAF as already planned for over 500 Air Superiority fighters (272 MKI + 250 FGFA). Because of this EFT is at a major disadvantage here. Its chances are very low.

2) IAF needs twin engine strike fighters. One of the primary requirements that needs to be fulfilled by MMRCA will be to strike deep into China in case of war. And single engine aircrafts can't do that. So Rafael and F/A 18 have major advantages here.

3) Two of the competing planes in MMRCA are still prototypes. Mig 35 and Grippen. This will be a big disadvantage for them since IAF won't take any risks in MMRCA.

4) Most importantly after the short list F/A 18 has a very high chance of being the L1 bidder. Which further gets boost by considering GE 414 for LCA. EFT and Rafael can't match that.

this is just my 2 cents you can disagree with that

 

[kingdurgaking]

Friends, I didnt mean Mig-29 is actually inferiror in aor superiority roles to Mirages. However IAF chosed MIrage over all the aircrafts in Kargil to carry out precision bombing on bunkers, recon.

In kargil conditions, where ground attack was more required that air superiority Mirage comes as the best than any other fighter.

Dont we all wonder why IAF didnt use Mig 29s in kargil. Its obvious that the Mig-29s we had that time sisnt have precision bombing abilities.

However based on the requirements, which is ground attack and not airsuperiority, Rafale will beat every one like MIrage did it then.

As far as my knowledge.. Mig 29 was the first fighter deployed in Kargil to employ Air superiority .. It was the only fighter deployed in very short notice as compared to Mirage.. Mig 29 did escorting of Mirage and Jaguar and kept the F16 at bay.. poor F16.. Mig 29 took from the valley itself because of less range it can cover while Mirages has to take execute from far off land as it had a good range i guess there was a report which stated that Mirage was not able to take off from high altitudes with those heavy bombs...

The reason for choosing Mirage for ground attack is because .. Israeli's had a very good experience of integrating LGB to Mirage and we got that s/w at high cost.. We also did integrate Nukes at that time by ourself which dassault has pardoned us .. While Mig 29 didnt have any LGB compatibility at that time... Mig 29 doctrine was Air superiority and it achieved its task with ease

 

[rockstarIN]

As far as my knowledge.. Mig 29 was the first fighter deployed in Kargil to employ Air superiority .. It was the only fighter deployed in very short notice as compared to Mirage.. Mig 29 did escorting of Mirage and Jaguar and kept the F16 at bay.. poor F16.. Mig 29 took from the valley itself because of less range it can cover while Mirages has to take execute from far off land as it had a good range i guess there was a report which stated that Mirage was not able to take off from high altitudes with those heavy bombs...

The reason for choosing Mirage for ground attack is because .. Israeli's had a very good experience of integrating LGB to Mirage and we got that s/w at high cost.. We also did integrate Nukes at that time by ourself which dassault has pardoned us .. While Mig 29 didnt have any LGB compatibility at that time... Mig 29 doctrine was Air superiority and it achieved its task with ease

Any link for the above two points?

 

[kingdurgaking]

this is just my 2 cents you can disagree with that

I agree with you in all aspects.. But for deep striking inside China i dont think MMRCA will be the best choice.. Medium Fighters without Stealth will be a miserable option... MMRCA will be sent for air superiority and SEAD operations .. while MKI will do the damaging task because it is a heavy fighter and secondly it can more Ammo with it compared to MMRCA....even 3 Brahmos can be carried only in MKI.. which wont be feasible with any MMRCA..I doubt even 1 for most of them. While I agree with you on F-18 will be the natural choice because of US dominance and Technology domination ..

 

[kingdurgaking]

Any link for the above two points?

For Israel help i can provide you.. it was a very old article will dig that and i will provide... while for Nuke i read it in BR.. and that info wont be in public domain because of the sensitivity nature.. But Mirages in our fleet has the capability i guess we have articles for that and it is a undisclosed open fact... And we did it because it is our Nuke

I really couldnt get the article now... I tried searching lot... but that article had reference to Litening pod.. mirage update for LGB with Israel help and how quickly our Armed forces calculated the deviation of errors with live testing of testing of bombs .. and Jaguar performance on the whole appreciating Mig29... it was a pdf file written by a service man.. i guess it would have been removed from the domain... I read this some 4-5 yrs back ... In this case i am taking back my words as i have failed to give the link

 

[SpArK]

Arms companies raise the pitch for $12bn order​

Ahead of US President Barack Obama’s November 6-8 visit, representatives of various global arms companies are engaged in intensive lobbying to bag the biggest ever military contract worth $12 billion for 126 multi-role fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin Corporation arranged a press briefing here to hardsell its F-17 Super Viper single-engine fighter. Meanwhile, the entire board of its competitor, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company NV (EADS), manufacturers of the Eurofighter, is in India to stem any chances of American companies that they feel may have a political edge on the eve of their president’s visit.

The F/A-18 Super Hornet from the military arm of Boeing Company is also in the race and it too is leaving no stone unturned to procure the contract.

Analysts in the capital agree that the deal has now attained political overtones and predict it may go the US way if Obama announces, or indicates, some major concessions to India, say, by offering support to India’s bid for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council and removing some snags in the India-US defence purchases deal.

Batting for US arm companies recently, US Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia Robert Blake estimated that 27,000 jobs would be created in the US if they clinch this deal.

Addressing India’s concerns vis-à-vis Pakistan, Lockheed Martin Director Michael R Griswold said his company would provide more advanced F-16IN Super Viper fighters to India. “It is a unique fourth-generation fighter and is ready for integration into India’s military force,” he said.

Referring to the plane’s radar system, his associates claimed that it can detect a plane even as it takes off from a Pakistani airbase. Pushing their case further, they said the single engine that generates 32,000 pounds of thrust also gives greater manoeuvrability during dog fights, unlike the twin-engine aircraft.

As a deal sweetener, EADS on its part has offered to shift the manufacture of some of its components to India, which is estimated to generate 20,000 jobs.

“We will transfer some of our development projects, which are now based in Europe for Eurofighter or other military aircraft, to India. We have already set up a military research and development (R&D) centre in Bangalore,” EADS Chief Executive (Defence & Security) Stefan Zoller had recently told Indian journalists in Bonn.

The European defence giant, however, has been quick to deny that its plan to shift operations to India was in any way linked to its bid for the multi-billion contract, saying it was only interested in procuring cheap manpower. But analysts say the move was aimed at putting indirect pressure on the government to award this contract and others in the future.

The race to win the massive contract had several other contenders, including the MiG-35 from Russia, the Rafale from Dassault Aviation of France, and the JAS 39 Gripen from Sweden. But it is now a toss-up between the American and EADS, with most of the other contenders having more or less lost hope of bagging the contract either due to snags during the technical evaluation stage or due to the absence of political clout.

Posted on October 28, 2010


Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

 

[sancho]

1)Absolutely wrong.SH has much much stronger radar(don't think radar only for range) and much more advance avionics, ecm etc than f16.US says aim9x is the 5th gen missile.There must be much differences than what paf has.All these will give big advantage in wvr fight.

Where do you see the advantage of the radar in WVR?
Also:

...The AIM-9X Sidewinder, developed by Raytheon engineers, entered service in November 2003 with the USAF (lead platform is the F-15C; the USN lead platform is the F/A-18C) and is a substantial upgrade to the Sidewinder family featuring an imaging infrared focal plane array (FPA) seeker with claimed 90° off-boresight capability, compatibility with helmet-mounted displays such as the new U.S. Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, and a totally new three-dimensional thrust-vectoring control (TVC) system providing increased turn capability over traditional control surfaces. Utilizing the JHMCS, a pilot can point the AIM-9X missile's seeker and "lock on" by simply looking at a target, thereby increasing air combat effectiveness[7]. It retains the same rocket motor, fuze and warhead of the 9-"Mike", but its lower drag gives it improved range and speed..

AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I said, it is an upgraded version of the same missile, of course with some advantages, but not like you might think (especially with JHMCS).

2) so let SH concentrate more for strike role.That never means that they will not fight wvr. And I also said that SH will be superior to Rafale in BVR fight.Now you tell me how did u come to know that SH don't have multi role capability?

See I did understand your point, but it doesn't make sense to say it will not fight in WVR. You simply can't rule out this possibility, especially in our case and we can't leave that to MKI only when we pay so much for the new fighters
I already explained and proved with source that the SH is not superior in BVR, you make the mistake to judge BVR capability only on radar and the Rafale already proved that this is wrong!
I never said the SH has no multi role capabilities, I said it will have problems when facing more maneuverable fighters with similar techs and weapons.

3)These limited Source code don't help you to replicate anything.And unlike France for US ,where u will get the best arms in cheaper rate, you don't need to integrate other countries arms.

When did I said something like that?
You don't need, doesn't mean it wouldn't be an advantage to integrate other weapons, it should be obvious that it is better for IAF to use India LGBs than US LGBs or? Not to mention that the US does not always has the better weapon, what they offer is the cheaper once and more variety.

4)Strange..Engines are one of the most important and one of the biggest part in a fighter.Tell me what bigger and more important commonality you will get in between mirage and rafale!!

That's why you must admit that the integration of Kaveri-Snecma engine into Rafale would be such a big advantage!
My point is, that there are several points that must be added to the costs of the SH, that the Rafale does not need, so the cost difference is not that big anymore. Moreover, the more we can customise it, the more we can reduce the costs, which will be a benefit for later upgrades too.

5)Even at home they don't have experience of producing more than 12 fighter a year!

Please, only because they produce only that much fighters now, doesn't mean they couldn't if needed. If they couldn't they would not offer fast delivery of fighters before the initial MMRCA timescale right?
But as I said, it isn't important for us anyway, because only 1 squad should be delivered by them.


To get this to an end, I think I made my points clear and there is no need to repat them again and again. The SH is not a bad fighter, especially in A2G, but compared to Rafale it lacks behind at several points that makes the higher for the Rafale worth it. If you add the addional advantages of the Rafale deal, in terms of ToT, restriction, commonality..., there can't be a doubt that the Rafale would be the better fighter for us. However, if politics plays the bigger, the SH will win this deal.

 

[sancho]

I just realized I'm arguing with a guy possibly a child who does not know the basics of flight. A guy who can't tell the difference between subsonic and supersonic flight. Where's the sonic boom? A seven second video and you can tell the Rafale has no 'drag issues' - incredible!!

LOL, so that is really all you got? Not even a single proof for all your claims.
On the other hand we have a SH pilot that says Rafale is more maneuverable, EF that was beaten in dogfights, a very good performance against the F22 in dogfights and even US F16 pilots that were impressed by Rafale before Red Flag and you have nothing.

Surely a twin edge fighter will have more survival option than a single engine fighter right? One missile if it hits the engine altogether it becomes a dead chicken... Where as Twin engine can still hold on and will be able to fly home to some extent dont you think so...
As per your comment on same weapon and same HMS... WVR will add some advantage for a twin edge dont you think so?

Oh now I see, what you meant, but that is only the case for this very situation right? In the combat itself, a very maneuverable and light weight F16 with a good T/W ratio can be be a big problem for a SH, if it's dependent on the flight performance only.

Friends, I didnt mean Mig-29 is actually inferiror in aor superiority roles to Mirages. However IAF chosed MIrage over all the aircrafts in Kargil to carry out precision bombing on bunkers, recon.

In kargil conditions, where ground attack was more required that air superiority Mirage comes as the best than any other fighter.

Dont we all wonder why IAF didnt use Mig 29s in kargil. Its obvious that the Mig-29s we had that time sisnt have precision bombing abilities.

However based on the requirements, which is ground attack and not airsuperiority, Rafale will beat every one like MIrage did it then.

Hi Dash, we used the M2K in Kargil because it was the only fighter that was able to do precision strike attacks, although it was meant for A2A roles like the Mig too. The Russian fighters wasn't able to drop PGMs then and strikes turned out to be less effective. The Mig 29s were pure A2A fighters and will get real A2G capabilities only with the new upgrade, so the M2Ks even then should multi role capabilties and the upgrade will make them even better.

 

[sancho]

Here an interview of the Saab director, talking about the NG and Sea Gripen from an Brazilian blog (google translated):

Google Übersetzer

Interesting, but also confirming that the Gripen NG is only a demonstrator with limeted capabilities and Gripen E/F is still far from beeing ready. That's why they needed the Gripen C/Ds to do the main parts of the trials here and if the E/F needs that long, I think the Sea Gripen is not a real alternative for IN too, if it was at all (Saab wasn't invited initially).
With the out of F35 for IN, it gets even clearer that Rafale and the SH will be the frontrunners in that competition too, so a combined deal is more than likely.

 

[FSLN]

very good performance against the F22 in dogfights r.

a F-22 pilot will never give you the chance to pray before you're dead.... and you talk about DogFights?..

 

[dbc]

LOL, so that is really all you got? Not even a single proof for all your claims.
On the other hand we have a SH pilot that says Rafale is more maneuverable, EF that was beaten in dogfights, a very good performance against the F22 in dogfights and even US F16 pilots that were impressed by Rafale before Red Flag and you have nothing.

You've been debunked and dismissed.

For the rest, here is an interesting read from a well known aviation journalist and author of several books Jon Lake. The article is less than a year old (Nov '09) but two things stood out, France has had no success selling this aircraft despite sweetening the deal. Singapore, Korea, Saudi, Kuwait, Morocco and Oman are some of the countries that turned down the Rafale. The Moroccans were offered the Rafale for next to nothing, I'm amazed they decided to go with the F-16's instead at a price of 2.5 Billion $'s.

Either the French burnt their bridges with former Mirage customers OR something is wrong with the Rafale.

The second interesting revelation is the comment about under powered engine and the scathing criticism from the French DGA (2005) Direction générale de l'armement (French MOD) about the radar being 'fatally flawed' and OSF being 'obsolete'. All things considered its NOT a surprise the Rafale can't find a customer and the French have slowed production to the bare minimum.

I've said this several times before, the Rafale program is riddled with problems. It is still salvageable if the Indian's or the Emirati's are willing to infuse cash and allow a few years for the platform to mature.

Arabian Aerospace - D-Days for Rafale

The UAE wants an operational active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a helmet-mounted sight and display system, an advanced forward sector infrared search and track system, a laser designation/targeting pod, an advanced defensive aids system (DAS), and a full spectrum of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons, including the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-air missile, and Scalp and Al Hakim ASMs.

Most of these improvements and enhancements are planned for French Rafales and work is already under way on the AESA version of the RBE2 radar, and on integrating the Damocles targeting pod. But integration of the Gerfaut helmet sight and enhanced OSF remain unfunded, and Rafale’s Systeme de Protection et d’Evitement des Conduites de Tir du RAfale (SPECTRA) DAS remains some way short of its originally planned capabilities.

Integration of Meteor on the Rafale is currently scheduled to begin in 2013-14 for service entry in 2017-18, and though it has been suggested that this date could be brought forward if necessary, this could be too late for the UAE.

But the key ‘missing feature’ for the UAE is a more powerful engine. The UAE’s requirement emphasizes long-range interdiction, and the air force is interested in operating the aircraft in some heavy configurations. The Rafale has been criticized in some quarters for being under-powered, and the existing 75 kN SNECMA M88-2 engine may not be ideally suited for such configurations in the hot-and-high conditions that may be experienced in the Middle East.

According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise.

There have, however, been increasingly critical comments about Rafale from members of the National Assembly's Finance and Defence Commissions, and there have been reports of disagreements between Dassault and DGA about cost increases and obsolescence. According to Defence Analysis (p.17, Vol 8.No.12 December 2005) Dassault have called the RBE2 radar 'fatally flawed' alleging that its range was "inadequate" and averring that the Rafale therefore relied on AWACS support to overcome this. The DGA also described Rafale's OSF ("Optronique Secteur Frontal") as "obsolescent" and production has been cut back to just 48 units, rather than the planned number, which was to have been sufficient to equip all F1 and F2 versions.

Electronic Aviation - Dassault Rafale - Problems

L'armée brésilienne, toujours influente au Brésil, plus de vingt ans après la fin de la dictature militaire, estime le Rafale trop onéreux (6,2 milliards de dollars, contre une offre du constructeur suédois Saab de 4,5 milliards de dollars) et surdimensionné pour les besoins du pays.

La préférence des militaires va ainsi au Gripen NG de Saab et en deuxième position au F/A-18 Super Hornet de l'Américain Boeing, le Rafale ne venant qu'en troisième place.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...u-bresil-compliquent-la-vente-du-rafale-.html

Here is a French source that clearly states the Brazilian military prefers the Gripen, Super Hornet over the Rafale. The report also states Brazil beleives the Rafale is too expensive at 6.2 Billion USD, 1.7 Billion USD more than the Gripen.

Invité à son tour devant la même commission, le 13 octobre, le chef d'état-major de l'armée de l'Air, le général Jean-Paul Palomeros, a plaidé pour la rénovation des Mirage 2000D, « afin de permettre aux flottes d'avions de combat françaises de respecter, à l'horizon 2020, un format cohérent avec nos objectifs stratégiques » et cela, avec « un coût unitaire modeste, de l'ordre de 10 millions d'euros par appareil », étant donné que « le contribuable a déjà consenti l'essentiel de l'effort pour cette flotte

Finally, a more recent (Oct 2010) plea by no less than General Jean-Paul Palomeros Chief of the French Air Force urging the government to fund the upgrade of the Mirage 2000D criticizing the acquisition of more Rafale's at the expense of Mirage 2000D upgrades required for roles and missions the Rafale is currently not equipped to perform - says a lot about the much touted omni role capabilities of the Rafale.

http://www.opex360.com/2010/10/19/l...-le-report-de-la-renovation-des-mirage-2000d/

 

[kingofkings]

Eurofighter Says Forget F-35, Typhoon Squares Up With Raptor!

 

[kingofkings]

UPDATE: Eurofighter AESA Radar Full-Op By 2015

 

[redpearl75]

EFT will be a waste if we go for that....

 

[KALKI]

EFT will be a waste if we go for that....

Let's see:

Mig-35 - Not good enough
F-18/16 - US tech....restrictions...no full tot etc. (example recent C-130J deal)

Now among ET, Gripen and rafael...i think ET is the best by far.