Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[CONNAN]

Russia’s MiG-35 fighter completely meets Indian tender requirements – arms exporter

BY EDITOR AT 26 JULY, 2010, 9:23 AM

BY: RIA Novosti



Russia’s MiG-35 Fulcrum-F jet fighter corresponds to all the requirements of an Indian tender aimed at acquiring a series of fighter jets, a department head for Russia’s state-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Monday.

Sergei Kornyev, the department head of Russia’s Air Force special equipment and services, made the announcement after the Farnborough Air Show outside London ended on Sunday.

In August 2007, India set an $11 billion tender for the delivery of 126 fighter aircraft. The world’s largest aircraft manufacturers are bidding for the tender, including France’s Dassault Aviation with its Rafale, U.S. Lockheed Martin with its F-16 Fighting Falcon and Boeing with the F-18 Super Hornet, Sweden’s Saab with its most up-to-date Gripen aircraft, and the European Eurofighter offering the Typhoon.

“The requirements of the tender are quite rigid, but we have already held three evaluation tests, and we believe we have offered an aircraft which entirely corresponds to the tender requirements,” Kornyev said.

Russia’s MiG-35 Fulcrum-F is a highly maneuverable, single-seat multirole air superiority fighter, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F).The plane was first officially presented during the Aero India 2007 air show.

“Of course, the buyers will make the final decision. We are sure that we will participate in this tender until the end, and we hope we will win,” Kornyev added.

The Farnborough Air Show was held on July 19-25 near London. About 1,350 companies and organizations from more than 50 countries, including some 60 Russian firms, took part in the air show. Russian air manufacturers have clinched deals worth over $10 billion, experts said

 

[Dash]

GPS , only .

That was my point - Buying Europe dosen't give you autonomous guidance independent of Americans .
You have to deal with US anyway whether you buy it from them or not .

Saying Rafale is better bcoz not American - Difficult to swallow .

Even R73 uses Texas instrument's motor for its seeker .

We have come too far to change our policy back wrt to US.

And we don't have capability to have GAGAN / GLONASS guidance for all our Smart munitions

True, as far as navigation is concerned its all GPS.
BUt thats one aspect of it...Like you said wheather we buy American or US it will somehow be related to US...

In case of a real conflict with US itself, or any indirect conflict that damages US interest badly only we will see GPS rendering false co-ordinates.

like I said in my previous post somewhere, this act by US will direct expose it to live international fire...

Lets say we take Rafale (from a nutral point of view) or F-18 or Gripen. All will have GPS guidance system.

In the event of a war with Lets say Pakistan or China, GPS getting turned off or GPS giving wrong co-ordinates is Extremely remote coz you are directlly getting exposed to a double edged policy which US itself cant afford in South Asia and its political reactions will echo in middle east.

In case you are fearing that to happen (GPS mishap) then I say chances are not there.

By the way, GLONASS is also not trust worthy for certain reasons and you kow the reasons better than me. forget the accuracy part.

GAGAN was supposed to be a family of 13 sats right?.....Can we say buy 2025 we will have it up and running?...

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

it will be eurofighter ofcourse

and separate deal with russia for Mig35..its evident....and this thing will open up soon

 

[Tejas-MkII]

MMRCA Flight Eval Report Coming This Week | AVIATION WEEK

MMRCA Flight Eval Report Coming This Week

Jul 26, 2010

By Anantha Krishnan M.
Bengaluru


The flight evaluation report of the much-awaited multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will be ready by the end of July.

Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik told selected reporters in Bengaluru recently during the Defense Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) Raising Day celebrations that the $11 billion final contract for 126 aircraft would be signed within a year. “Our selection will be based on technical evaluation and we submit the decision on that basis,” Naik said. The IAF will submit its report to the Defense Ministry, which will then start the price-bid evaluation process.

He said the feedback from IAF pilots, who have test-flown the various contenders (the F/A-18 Super Hornet, F-16 Falcon, Gripen, Rafale, MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon) has been satisfactory, although he declined to provide more details about any particular aircraft.

On another matter - the expected arrival of Russians for the Su-30 MKI upgradation - the air chief told AVIATION WEEK that “everything is in place and as planned.”

Concerning the Defense Research and Development Organization, Naik said that scientists must marry technology with the needs of changing times, and he wanted them to be one step ahead to give IAF cutting-edge capabilities. “You should be telling us what you can give us. You should be setting the technology agenda for us,” he said.

DARE has designed and developed complete avionics for MiG 27 aircraft that has been accepted by the IAF. The lab has also developed the Tarang radar warning receiver system on various airborne platforms, in addition to a missile approach warning system and multi-sensor warning system on Avro aircraft, as well as the Cheetah helicopter. The lab has also contributed extensively to the Su-30 MKI avionics suits.

 

[gogbot]

^^^^^

By end of July they mean sometime October

 

[Archie]

^^^^^

By end of July they mean sometime October

No, what it means is that evaluation report will be submitted to MOD by end of july
However u can expect a shortlist of 3 fighters to be announced by october-november
and the contract being signed by may 2011

 

[sudhir007]

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/106816/India/$-10-bn-combat-jet-deal-eyes-strategic-leverage.html

The Indian Air Force is set to acquire 126 medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the current talk in the Vayu Sena Bhavan is to "leverage strategic gains" out of the $ 10-billion deal.

As the compilation of the flight test results nears completion, the process of hard bargaining is set to begin.

A senior air force officer told Mail Today: "We should use the deal to get concessions on enrichment technology, and accessing dual use technologies that we are denied at the moment." However, before negotiations on these aspects are addressed, a few steps need to be taken first.

The first shortlist for the six types of aircraft-MiG-35, Rafale, Gripen, Eurofighter, F-16 and F/A 18 Super Hornet - will be prepared by the air force on the basis of "complying with the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force", an official explained.

As is the norm, senior air force officers have remained mostly tight-lipped about which aircraft have or haven't made the cut in terms of fulfilling the operational requirements, although some information seems to have trickled out regarding the flight tests wherein one or two of these six aircraft failed to develop "enough thrust" in the high altitude tests held at Leh.

After the air force lists the aircraft that have complied with its "technical" requirements, the ministry of defence will judge the "offset compliance" of the selected manufacturers. In simple terms, that would mean how much of the money would be ploughed back into the Indian economy.

The 'offset' requirement for the MMRCA deal is 50 per cent. This means that close to $ 5 billion would have to be reinvested into India by the company winning the bid.

After this, the "commercial bids" of each would be opened by the defence ministry mandarins, who will, for the first time, examine the commercial offers made by the companies more than two years ago.

For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the 'life cycle costs'-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.

On the basis of this, the lowest bidder (L1) would be determined by a commercial negotiation committee headed by an additional secretary of the ministry. The committee will also have members of the service headquarters of the army, navy and air force. They would then conduct price negotiations with the L1 bidder to improve upon the initial offer.

Finally, a paper would be prepared for the Cabinet Committee on Security that would have to give its seal of approval and award the contract. It is at this stage, before the contract is awarded, that government-to-government negotiations would be conducted to get the best additional benefits for the country.

The sheer size of the MMRCA deal ensures that India will get a high level of attention from each of country vying for the largest defence contract in recent memory.

 

[KEETARP]

The 'offset' requirement for the MMRCA deal is 50 per cent. This means that close to $ 5 billion would have to be reinvested into India by the company winning the bid.

This is where our Russian friends can not compete . Sad

although some information seems to have trickled out regarding the flight tests wherein one or two of these six aircraft failed to develop "enough thrust" in the high altitude tests held at Leh.

Only F18, Rafale could have this problem with Thrust
( GE414-EPE esp asked by IAF and M88 is low from beginning ) .

The Indian Air Force is set to acquire 126 medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the current talk in the Vayu Sena Bhavan is to "leverage strategic gains" out of the $ 10-billion deal.

For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the 'life cycle costs'-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.

Heee, these two contradict each other .
Strategic gain who better than Europe / America

then this talk about Low operational cost is Bu*******t

 

[Dash]

then this talk about Low operational cost is Bu*******t

It may be and may not be, you never know what will have an edge.
Our decisons can change at last minute.

 

[KEETARP]

Ok Sancho , here you Go about your F16 doubt .

I wrote a mail asking

"What F16 EWS suite is part of F16-IN block70 package , Will it be similar to Falcon Edge of Block 60 or AIDEWS suite of standard USAF-Block52 "

Reply was , I am posting concerned part

Lockheed Martin intends to equip its F-16IN Super Viper with Raytheon’s ACES protection suite.

and this was attachment file -

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/rtnwcm/groups/sas/documents/content/rtn_p_sas_aces_3.pdf


Later to confirm about this and be sure , I searched on Google

where I got this confirmation news + interview of Olive Prince

Lockheed Martin plans Raytheon protection suite for F-16

Lockheed Martin plans Raytheon protection suite for F-16

2009-02-12 03:13:17
Last Updated: 2009-02-12 09:26:33
Bangalore: The race for the Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets just got hotter with US defence major Lockheed Martin opting to equip its F-16IN Super Viper with electronics giant Raytheon's protection suite, which the company described as the “world's most advanced electronic warfare system”.
The two companies announced the tie-up on the sidelines of the seventh edition of the Aero India international air show that opened here on Wednesday.

The advanced counter measures electronic system (ACES) comprises a radar-scanning receiver, a jammer and a chaff and flare dispenser, as well as a decoy that is towed behind the aircraft.

“It is pretty exciting that Lockheed Martin has taken us for the entire system. What we offer is the world's most advanced electronic warfare system,” Mike Henchey, Raytheon's vice president for Space and Airborne Systems, said.

“Wonderful things are happening for India. This shows India has the opportunity to come to Raytheon for the most advanced systems to meet its needs,” he added.

'No favouritism in fighter aircraft contract'

According to Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin's vice president for business development in India, Raytheon's electronic warfare systems “represent the latest technology and the best value solution for India”.

“The Raytheon aircraft self-protection equipment helps make Lockheed's Super Viper the right solution for India's air force,” he added.

The F-16 is one of the six aircraft in the fray for the IAF order. The others are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, the Russian MiG-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by a four-nation European conglomerate.

Special: Aero-India 2009

The tender was floated in 2007 and the bids were opened last April.

The field trials of the six aircraft are to begin soon and slated to last for a year as the jets have to be tested in a variety of climatic conditions ranging from the deserts of Rajasthan to the icy heights of Leh in Jammu and Kashmir.

And this RWR has that capability which You and Me were worried about " Direction Finding capability " that only UAE would get this type of capability and performance


I have links for that too , if you want I can post it here .

Otherwise - we can continue thru P.mail as we have been doing for last few weeks .

Hmm ,
must say F16 Block 70 is slowly getting me . I am getting more and more impressed .

It would definitely be more advanced than Block 60

 

[KEETARP]

It may be and may not be, you never know what will have an edge.
Our decisons can change at last minute.

But talking about Strategic Gain + Low operational cost
is like mixing Old-monk with Vat69 .

When you talk of Low operational cost - and plan to purchase Fighter like Typhoon,Hornet,Rafale ( They are The most costly to operate ) --------Laughable

Low operational cost fits more to Gripen,F16 .
But then asking Sweden to give you strategic gain - is like asking Beggar to give you some loan .

 

[sancho]

Sorry for beeing late, but I guess some corrections are needed here!

Anyways - Whole weapon trial was completed in April . Gripen NG was last one to complete .
Strangely Gripen NG completed weapon trial first in April , then Flight tests in May ...

... Gripen & Gripen NG in April
Gripen's weapon trial were held in two phases - One weapon trial in India + One weapon trial in Sweden ( unique , only aircraft to do so )

8ak - Indian Defence News
fourth para , weapon drop in Jaisalmer + 1st para for trials in Sweden.

Gripen D, not Gripen NG made all the tests (including the weapon tests) in the trials, which even your source confirms:

To date, Saab has conducted about 20 flights in India, mostly in Bangalore's Aircraft Systems & Testing Establishment (ASTE) where 2 Gripen-D fighters did low-level, high-speed supersonic tests. In Jaisalmer the 2 aircraft did a weapons release test and one aircraft sent to Leh did landing, engine cold start and take off with full internal fuel plus 2.6 tonnes external load.

From the official gripenindia site:

The D restarted and took off from Leh with a loadout of 2.6 tonnes which included air to air missiles and underwing fuel tanks. The heat test went off very well in Jaisalmer. It meant placing the aircraft in the sun for a designated period of time, firing her up and flying her at maximum speed at low altitude while checking out all the systems. They also dropped a bomb flying out of Jaisalmer. They also did tanking ops...

...the Demo will be here in mid May and will likely do the Leh trip again and anything that the Indian Air Force requests...

...Indian Air Force pilots travel to Sweden in the next few days. They are free to fly the Demo there if they want though they will be firing an AMRAAM off a D platform.

So weapon tests only with the Gripen D (be it in India, or Sweden) and the Gripen NG did only flight tests at Leh!

4) Rafale - Not the right person to answer , ask Sancho/Karthic .

Rafale could have used Mirage to perform A2G laser designation .
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/66092-winner-mrca-time-place-ur-bets-9.html

Post no 125 onwards .......

Regarding Rafale performance during the trials, since last year I'm trying anything to find out something about it, but the only report say it came with a working AESA radar and the only pics shows it even in clean config only.

Regarding Santros post, no offense, but he obviously does not no much about the Rafale, or its performance in the mentioned competitions. The fact that Rafale was shortlisted to the final stage in any competitions it attended (unlike the EF!), should make clear that it came out with good rankings in the technical evaluations and actually placed pretty good. Same goes for Swiss, or Brazil at the moment and I expect the same in India to, but at the end, anything depends on political benefits!
He mentioned that Rafale must be Mirage fighters for designation in Afghanistan in 2007, which is true, because the Rafale F2s didn't integrated the damocles targeting pod. That was possible only with the actual F3 version from 2008 onwards and according to latest reports (interview with a French airforce pilot), the integration is close to be done and French Rafales will be equipped with Damocles by end of this year, to be deployed in Afghanistan next year.

As you can see on the following pics, Rafale with Damocles pod was fielded in the trials in Switzerland in oct 2008, which means they did the same for sure in India last year:

Btw, finaly you admit the reason why you are bashing the Rafale, or the French all the time :

You know Karthic ,
I don't like Rafale even a single bit .
Not bcoz Jet is poor but Price and arrogance of France , what they did when IAF was asking for Mirage upgrade .
Instead of compromising & accommodating a good customer they simply diluted their package and gave reduced price based on inferior avionics & radar .
Did same thing with Scorpene , - should never be forgiven .

Karthic and Dash already gave you some good points, but just to remind some things.

Russia:

- Groshkov and Nerpa delayed
- Groshkov refurbishment and Mig 29K price increase
- A50 Phalcon delayed, additional could be more expensive
- Mig 35 development delayed
- New upgraded MKI estimated at twice the costs as older versions


Israel:

- twice the cost for Phalcon AWACS than proposed to China
- delays in integration of Phalcon system and delivery to India


UK:

- delayes, as well as wrong parts and tools for HAWK trainer


USA:

- wrong delivery of Paveway 2 kits during Kargil War
- no spares for Sea King helicopters
- delays in Shivalik class development, because US State Department production of LM 2500 engines
- several issues regarding EUM, or CISOMA
- cost increase for C17s for India


And that's only the points that came to my mind now, I'm sure I missed some points. As you can see, high costs, delays, or other problems are not unique for France only, they all are the same, would you reject FGFA, because Russia increased the price for MKI now?

 

[sancho]

I have links for that too , if you want I can post it here .

Otherwise - we can continue thru P.mail as we have been doing for last few weeks .

Sure you can send me the links, I will reply to your last PM as soon as possible to, just didn't had the time in the last days.

 

[marcos98]

Questions and answers about the program Gripen NG

The Gripen NG is a plane?

NO. Gripen NG or 'Next Generation' is the name of the program has two basic goals: to generate a new version of the popular game of Saab and develop new technologies that can be incorporated into the current fleet of Gripen.

Gripen Demo and Gripen NG is the same thing?

The Gripen Demo was originally a two-seater JAS 39B (registration 39-803) which was converted into the standard 39D and has now been partially reconstructed to test new structural improvements, new technologies and new concepts.

Why the Gripen Demo is not a prototype?

For several reasons. One of them was and remains the ability to test new equipment, sensors and technologies that will be used in upgrades of older models (versions A / B / C / D). In addition, the Gripen Demo was rebuilt to serve as a test platform for the future generation of aircraft, versions of which will indicate the E (single seat) and F (two seat).

There are external differences between the Gripen NG and the older versions?

YES, there are several differences, but very subtle. The main structural change is at the bottom of the fuselage.A new main landing gear was built, improving the internal fuel capacity of the aircraft. This change has left more rounded fuselage bottom and allowed the incorporation of two more stations (racks) for armaments.Other details include the new air intakes of the engine compartment door tailwheel modified and slight increase in magnitude.

Structural changes have left the Gripen Demo heavier than previous versions?

YES. For the single-seat version of the Gripen Demo is expected an increase of 200kg on the empty weight of the aircraft. But with the introduction of the new engine (a GE F414G) The airplane got nearly 22% more power and, in practice, you can take off with more than 1.800kg payload than the previous version.

As the scope of the Gripen Demo may have increased both the maximum weight has increased?
There are two basic reasons for this The first is structural in nature. The repositioning of the main landing gear allowed the introduction of a new fuel tank with a capacity of 960kg, bringing total internal to 3360kg (or 40% more).Secondly the new F414G engine has an intake much better than its predecessor.
In transportation, the maximum range with external tanks and no refueling reaches 4000km and the range of action in typical mission intercept (point 30 minutes 'on the station') will be around 1300km.

The Swedish Air Force will buy the new generation Gripen?
YES. However, the Swedish Air Force can operate its current models until 2015/2017 and that a version of the Gripen would be necessary only after this date. But Saab has announced that the Swedish Air Force intends to purchase in advance the next generation of game if a country decided to buy it.

 

[sudhir007]

Towards a holistic relationship

The 126-fighter jet deal has political overtones and cameron is likely to push its case strongly with the Indian leadership

British prime minister David Cameron will miss Myanmar’s military ruler Than Shwe by a mere day during his visit to India, but both leaders have weapons on their minds: Trials for India’s 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, worth $12 billion, concluded earlier this month, and it is said the news is “good” for the Eurofighter Typhoon — a joint production of the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain — compared to its Swedish (Saab Gripen IN), Russian (MiG-35), French (Dassault Rafale) and US (Lockheed Martin’s F-16 and Boeing’s F/A Super Hornet) rivals.

In these testing times of recession, the award of the 126-fighter jet deal to any of these countries will not only significantly bump up its bottom line, it will also effectively send out a signal to the nation on which India wants to bestow her affection. That is why this deal has strong political overtones — and Cameron is unlikely to lose an opportunity to push its case with the Indian leadership.

With Britain likely to post a mere 2.6 per cent growth rate this year, Cameron knows he’s got to kick-start the economy. Britain must live up to its reputation of being the world’s biggest shop-keeper by not only finding more creative ways of pursuing trade and inward investment, but also reorient foreign policy tools such as international aid.

That is why the acquisition by Tata Steel of Corus, worth £ 6.7 billion when it was concluded in 2007, then India’s largest deal, and by Tata Motors of Jaguar Land Rover (JLR), worth £ 1.15 billion, are always the focus of such attention. Tata employs 15,000 people at JLR’s three factories in the UK and believes that expansion into new markets, such as China, could sustain growth and minimise losses (although Corus had to lay off 3,000 jobs at its factory in Teesside).

R Gopalakrishnan, executive director of Tata Sons, discounted rumours of despondency in the UK market. “We are perfectly happy with our acquisitions. Both Corus and JLR are in their second or third year, we are not looking at making money so far. Moreover, we have no reason to regret the acquisitions,” he said.

Asked what strategic value the Tatas would have gained from investing such large sums of money in Britain, Gopalakrishnan agreed that Britain “had reached its peak decades ago, but the fact remained that it was an easy country to work in.” Moreover, he added, it’s not as if the Tatas decided one fine morning that they were going into the UK — it was a combination of factors that resulted in their doing so. “The strategic intent was to grow the international business, UK didn’t happen by design,” he added.

Among its assets, Gopalakrishnan counted off the English language, a good insight into Anglo-America as well as easier access into “new geographies” like the former Eastern Europe and China. (Over the last year, the Tatas have sold $3.6 billion worth of goods to China, including Jaguar cars.)

And, he added, Britain may look jaded on several counts, but it “still has very high-quality engineering skills.”

That may well be why bilateral trade is currently pegged at a respectable $12 billion (some say it has the capacity to reach $40 billion by the end of the decade), and that Britain, which was India’s second largest trading partner until 2002, has since been overtaken by China (due mostly to the import of iron ore from India), the UAE (Gulf trade) and Belgium (diamonds). But India remains the UK’s largest export market in the developing world, ahead of China.

FDI inflows from the UK into India are still weak, however, and focussed on oil and natural gas (Cairns) and telecom (Vodafone acquiring Hutch). New areas such as IT (India is the second largest presence from Asia in terms of projects) and bio-technology are gathering their spurs; Astra Zeneca has established an R&D centre in Bangalore, while Cairns Energy, Shell and British Gas have promised to speed up investment.

Britain’s loss as India’s pre-eminent political partner in recent decades has meant heightened interest in the US — especially after the Bush administration slam-dunked India to de facto nuclear power status — and increasingly, a wary circling of China. In recent weeks, with Delhi’s request to Moscow for enrichment and reprocessing technologies for use in the several nuclear plants that nations like France, Russia — and in the near future, the US — are going to be building in India, Britain’s own nuclear cooperation deal with India seems like a minnow among the whales.

British diplomats admit that British companies are willing to supply the full range of components that make up a nuclear plant, short of the nuclear reactor itself, such as turbines which go into the French Areva reactors; an MOU with L&T was signed in February for the manufacture of these turbines.

The message, said a well-placed British source, is that the UK is “much more open and communicative to India” after the passage of the India nuclear deal through the Nuclear Suppliers Group in 2008.

The British source pointed out that Cameron’s UK is focussed on areas like education, climate change and defence ties. India and the UK already have as many as 400 tie-ups in higher education, including the training of faculty, joint programmes and the building of research bases. “We are interested in educating India’s youth bulge, as it were,” he said.

But with India’s neighbourhood in such ferment, Indian diplomats say the time may have come for its friends around the globe to stand up and be counted on issues that matter to Delhi. On the question of terrorism, for example, Indian and British officials have often differed on interpretations between militants and freedom-fighters, with London persisting with imparting human rights to terrorists.

Things have often come to a head over Afghanistan-Pakistan issues, and in fact, even David Headley's confession to interrogators over the Pakistan intelligence agency, ISI’s involvement in the attacks, are being taken with a pinch of salt in London.

Moreover, as Gopalakrishnan pointed out, governments often tend to compartmentalise issues like security, labour, migration, climate change, trade and investment, and the time may have come to rebuild the whole, which is more than a sum of its parts.

“There is a great opportunity to build a relationship which is far more holistic. It hasn’t happened yet, but it certainly needs to,” Gopalakrishnan added.