Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[jha]

Russia's MiG-35 fighter completely meets Indian tender requirements - arms exporter

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F jet fighter corresponds to all the requirements of an Indian tender aimed at acquiring a series of fighter jets, a department head for Russia's state-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Monday.

Sergei Kornyev, the department head of Russia's Air Force's special equipment and services, made the announcement after the Farnborough Air Show outside London ended on Sunday.

In August 2007, India set an $11 billion tender for the delivery of 126 fighter aircraft. The world's largest aircraft manufacturers are bidding for the tender, including France's Dassault Aviation with its Rafale, U.S. Lockheed Martin with its F-16 Fighting Falcon and Boeing with the F-18 Super Hornet, Sweden's Saab with its most up-to-date Gripen aircraft, and the European Eurofighter offering the Typhoon.

"The requirements of the tender are quite rigid, but we have already held three evaluation tests, and we believe we have offered an aircraft which entirely corresponds to the tender requirements," Kornyev said.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F is a highly maneuverable, single-seat multirole air superiority fighter, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F).The plane was first officially presented during the Aero India 2007 air show.

"Of course, the buyers will make the final decision. We are sure that we will participate in this tender until the end, and we hope we will win," Kornyev added.

The Farnborough Air Show was held on July 19-25 near London. About 1,350 companies and organizations from more than 50 countries, including some 60 Russian firms, took part in the air show. Russian air manufacturers have clinched deals worth over $10 billion, experts said.

 

[soaringphnx]

Guys, a simple question. If the F-18SH is selected, will we get the AIM 9x sidewinder missile? Can it be integrated on other aircraft (like Su-30MKI or FGFA) as well?

 

[KEETARP]

A question..any body know,when did the weapons trial completed on MRCA?? no news about it..Then how come they say trial is over??

Hi , Seiko .
Sorry for replying late - just saw your post . After Jha's update
How was weekend ????

To your query ,
I posted every detail on weapon trials in some thread , can't find it now . Multiple thread opening on MRCA , its difficult to keep track .
Vayu , AWST & Flight-International covered it in detail .

Anyways - Whole weapon trial was completed in April . Gripen NG was last one to complete .
Strangely Gripen NG completed weapon trial first in April , then Flight tests in May .
Let me post whatever detail is left, lucky that i kept some links ----Hmmmmmmmm

1) For F16,F18 , completed their trials in Feb
second para in below AWST article , March/Feb edition of "Aviation week & Space"

2) For Eurofighter completed trials in April

Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
11 , 12 and 2 para in the above link . Flight International had a complete article , i posted it also - Guess thread was either deleted / lost .

3) Gripen & Gripen NG in April
Gripen's weapon trial were held in two phases - One weapon trial in India + One weapon trial in Sweden ( unique , only aircraft to do so )

8ak - Indian Defence News
fourth para , weapon drop in Jaisalmer + 1st para for trials in Sweden.




4) Rafale - Not the right person to answer , ask Sancho/Karthic .

Rafale could have used Mirage to perform A2G laser designation .
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/66092-winner-mrca-time-place-ur-bets-9.html

Post no 125 onwards .......


5) MIG 35 completed testing in March

3 Fighters with serial nos
961, 967 and 154 took part

Defunct Humanity: MiG-35's new pics, interpretation

22.04.10 ????????? ???-35 ???????????? - ??????? ???????

http://www.aex.ru/imgupl/Aviaindustria_02-10_fin_low.pdf

As per above link , for weapon trials AESA with 1280 modules was used .

confirmed by Igor
Defunct Humanity: Jai hind!

May edition of AW&ST + May edition of "Take-off " + Air-fleet.ru & Air-Industry had it covered .

I don't have AWST may article to post , so I am cross-linking from BR forum

The latest AW&ST mag has some good details on the MiG-35 weapons trials in Russia in April (thanks Austin) by Maxim Padyushkin. They have, for the first time, demonstrated the test firing of a R-77 (RVV-AE) guided with target updates from the Zhuk-AE. They also demonstrated the use of the TV-guided KAB-500 bombs with target data being provided by the Zhuk-AE. The Russians demonstrated this to an IAF team which was present during the demos. And the R-77 being offered for the MRCA competition is the RVV-SD, the newer version of the R-77, with longer range of 110 km and heavier by 30 kgs or so. I'd expect the same for the K-74 as well.

As it turns out, Bort 961 is a single seater and Bort 967 is a twin seater and these two prototypes participated in the trials. A total of 18 sorties were undertaken during the weapons trials.

Bharat Rakshak • View topic - MRCA News and Discussion

Go thru above link , nice info by one of members .

 

[KEETARP]

Guys, a simple question. If the F-18SH is selected, will we get the AIM 9x sidewinder missile? Can it be integrated on other aircraft (like Su-30MKI or FGFA) as well?

First -
India asked for AIM 9X-2 version , and firing was shown with 9x2 only .

Second - No
US has never really allowed foreign armaments on their aircraft , or any Foreign aircraft to carry their missiles (except to Israel or NATO allies , Python5 etc on F16).

Plus even if you are hell bent upon this technically -

-You need to have a NATO standard pylon since the electrical and cooling connectors for the Sidewinder won’t work on the Russian pylons on the Su-30MKI/FGFA/Mig29 .

- The serial buses in AIM-9X missile follow MIL-STD 1773 Fibre optic connection + Weapon controller on Western aircraft have Mil-Std 1760 Fibre optic connection .
While Russians have uniform Mil-Std 1553 non-fibre optic buses on Mig/Su so , giving target to missile and integration is hampered .

PAk-FA will have Fibre optic buses , so will be easy to integrate . But i doubt rusians would allow it

Previously
R-73s were integrated with the Mirage-2000,
Magic-II was integrated with the MiG-21s ,
but that time both had 1553 buses open architecture .

 

[KS]

4) Rafale - Not the right person to answer , ask Sancho/Karthic .

Rafale could have used Mirage to perform A2G laser designation .
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/66092-winner-mrca-time-place-ur-bets-9.html

Post no 125 onwards .......

Im not able to find any meaningful link giving the details as to which weapons where test fired or the exact date regarding Rafale.

And being in office with all those website access restrictions dont help either.

 

[KEETARP]

Im not able to find any meaningful link giving the details as to which weapons where test fired or the exact date regarding Rafale.

And being in office with all those website access restrictions dont help either.

You know Karthic ,
I don't like Rafale even a single bit .
Not bcoz Jet is poor but Price and arrogance of France , what they did when IAF was asking for Mirage upgrade .
Instead of compromising & accommodating a good customer they simply diluted their package and gave reduced price based on inferior avionics & radar .
Did same thing with Scorpene , - should never be forgiven .

About weapon trials -
They did allow their Video-Game for Indian pilots

Ce jeudi deux officiers indiens ont volé sur Rafale... - capitaine-romain

Thursday, two Indian officers have flown the Rafale

Saturday, 20th of March 2010.

On Thursday 18th of March, two indian officers could discover and test by themselves all the qualities of Rafale.

After a briefing in the morning, the Indian pilot -very experimented, but alone onboard a plane which was new to him- could take off, intercept and identify a fighter with the help of the optronics of Rafale, engage several air-to-air targets at beyond visual range, shoot an AASM salvo -the new GPS guided french bomb- on targets discovered and realigned during the mission, before landing... All in a single hour simulated flight...

The two officers could check the realism of the simulator Rafale, using in a real two seater flight what they had learned during less than a daytime.

They left the 1/7 fighter squadron bluffed by the ease of use of our last fighter, and with a smile on their face.

LoL

 

[KS]

You know Karthic ,
I don't like Rafale even a single bit .
Not bcoz Jet is poor but Price and arrogance of France , what they did when IAF was asking for Mirage upgrade .
Instead of compromising & accommodating a good customer they simply diluted their package and gave reduced price based on inferior avionics & radar .
Did same thing with Scorpene , - should never be forgiven .

hmmm..but didn the Russkies do the same for Gorshkov..? UK did for Hawks and last but not least Americans who do it every now and then..?

Does that mean we should not forgive any of them??

If we get a good machine now..better go for it than delving on past experience and AFAIK France has been a sanction free source for weapons.

Coming to cost,Yes the price is exorbitant but not as much the EFT.

I think it combines the excellent A2A of EFT and excellent A2G of SH albeit to a lesser extent in both and comes as a single platform.

Yes u may have ur concerns as valid as they mayb, but hey we r not selecting them..are we..?

P.S.: If bad comes to worse and then to worst (Rafalre not selected) I would like to see the SH in Indian colors,not the EFT

And what do u think will be the American reliablity if India goes for the SH.? Ur opinion

About weapon trials -
They did allow their Video-Game for Indian pilots

In addition to live firing as seen from the link..

 

[KEETARP]

hmmm..but didn the Russkies do the same for Gorshkov..?

Ask ptldM3 ,
he wrote an excellent post plus there was some goof up from our side in Russia . Guess pictures were leaked on net as well .
And now what we are getting is a different level equipment+ upgrade , than what was signed before .

UK did for Hawks and last but not least

Supplying wrong tools , Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
But they compromised as per latest news . Infact reduced price .

If we get a good machine now..better go for it than delving on past experience and AFAIK France has been a sanction free source for weapons.

If I give you list of American companies in Rafale parts + designing & manufacturing tools ,
you would probably run away from India to US .

excellent A2G of SH

SH is excellent in A2A as well , maneuverability wise you can compare it to Vipers . Both designs were YF17,YF18/YF16 designed as maneuverable to counter migs.

And what do u think will be the American reliablity if India goes for the SH.? Ur opinion

We have come too far to have any concerns . If at all it has effect , ARMY will be more hit .

Artillery Guns , Shells , CBU105 Cluster bombs , WLR - weapon locating radars , Strategic lift aircraft , Combat choppers , Lift helos ............. etc .
We will be .............

In addition to live firing as seen from the link..

Not from the link , link is for simulated flight only .........

 

[Iggy]

@Prateek ..No weekend for me yaar.i was at office on Sunday too..


And I had a chat with blackblood and during the chat he mentioned that Rafale were poorly performed against Pakistan Mirages and gave me a link too..unfortunately i am not able to save the link because of friend who restarted the pc..I will ask him for the link and will provide you..

 

[KS]

We have come too far to have any concerns . If at all it has effect , ARMY will be more hit .

Artillery Guns , Shells , CBU105 Cluster bombs , WLR - weapon locating radars , Strategic lift aircraft , Combat choppers , Lift helos ............. etc .
We will be .............

bombs .shells etc are a wrong analogy Prateek..they r expendables.
And troop transport aircraft,lift helos relatively dont have much effect on a war as prime fighter planes. (correct me if im wrong).

Anyways ur dead set against Rafale and im dead set against EFT and Gripen....so lets agree to disagree here.

And I had a chat with blackblood and during the chat he mentioned that Rafale were poorly performed against Pakistan Mirages and gave me a link too..unfortunately i am not able to save the link because of friend who restarted the pc..I will ask him for the link and will provide you..

Rafales fared poorly against PAF Mirage roses..? cmon man..it cant be true..

 

[KEETARP]

And troop transport aircraft,lift helos relatively dont have much effect on a war as prime fighter planes.

COLD START dies before even starting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Start_(military_doctrine)

First point from above

(Just hope , if you do happen to have some classified documents on Cold start doctrine , Plz go thru )

bombs .shells etc are a wrong analogy Prateek..they r expendables

Hmmm, BOFORS /aka American & BAE now - Our Hero of Kargil .

Only LUH can be effectively mobilized in quick time in mountains , Arjun s would be - Ahm

Mirage dropping Bomb on Peak- Tiger Hill had American Paveway Kit + Spanish bomb .

That changed the war

Book extract from "Despatches From Kargil" By Srinjoy Chowdhury - Vayu Sena

There is a pic of Mirage (2nd last with ) US paveway kit .

That was Laser guidance ,
today GPS - JDAM/AASM is at US mercy .

Imagine we getting wrong GPS co-ordinates and correction relative to Enemy (Major Non-NATO ALLY)

 

[KS]

COLD START dies before even starting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Start_(military_doctrine)

First point from above

(Just hope , if you do happen to have some classified documents on Cold start doctrine , Plz go thru )

I said on a relative basis with fighter planes.

Hmmm, BOFORS /aka American & BAE now - Our Hero of Kargil .

Only LUH can be effectively mobilized in quick time in mountains , Arjun s would be - Ahm

Mirage dropping Bomb on Peak- Tiger Hill had American Paveway Kit + Spanish bomb .

That changed the war

Expendables in the sense once u acquire a bomb u cant put sanctions on the explosive inside.But are fighter planes like that.?

 

[Iggy]

I talked to Black blood now..it was a Dog fight between Rose Mirages and Rafale and Rafales performed very bad againt the Pakistan Mirages..he said he will dig up and provide us the link ..And also he said its long time ago..

 

[Dash]

That was Laser guidance ,
today GPS - JDAM/AASM is at US mercy .

Imagine we getting wrong GPS co-ordinates and correction relative to Enemy (Major Non-NATO ALLY)

So what guidance system Europe uses?

 

[KEETARP]

So what guidance system Europe uses?

GPS , only .

That was my point - Buying Europe dosen't give you autonomous guidance independent of Americans .
You have to deal with US anyway whether you buy it from them or not .

Saying Rafale is better bcoz not American - Difficult to swallow .

Even R73 uses Texas instrument's motor for its seeker .

We have come too far to change our policy back wrt to US.

And we don't have capability to have GAGAN / GLONASS guidance for all our Smart munitions